Flush Latches

[sisu1a]

Hi All,
I am trying to figure out who the manufacturer of the particular flush
latch below, and after MUCH interwebbing have still turned up
nothing.
http://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20outside.jpg and
http://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20inside.jpg

It's not a Camloc (none I've run across at least...)
I'm not interested in Hartwells'
Any clues?

These will be for parts I am making which are not direct replacements
so my latch choice is left to my own arbitrary decision process. I
have already tried to email the builder of the RV-10 that latch is on
to no avail (I even joined the vans Air Force newsgroup over the
deal!).

I am also interested in a very similar looking flush latch that is
used on the dorsal hatch on the Genesis 2, but also for the life of me
cannot figure out exactly who made them and what they are called
(Robert Mudd does not know either for that matter...), so if anyone
has any insight on that one it would also be appreciated. Inspecting
one up close is of no help, as the thick speckeled/textured gray
interior coating already covers the latch bodies, hiding the crucial
info. Anyone speak Lithuanian?

Thanks,
Paul

[Todd]

Those look similar to Piper's oil dip stick door (Cherokee 140's,
etc). I wonder if there is some Piper maintenance manual that might
show the part, or if they are available from Piper's parts
department? Or maybe they could give you the manufacturer. Just a
thought.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 11, 7:28*am, sisu1a > wrote:
> Hi All,
> I am trying to figure out who the manufacturer of the particular flush
> latch below, and after MUCH interwebbing have still turned up
> nothing.http://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20outside.jpgandhttp://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20inside.jpg
>
> It's not a Camloc (none I've run across at least...)
> I'm not interested in Hartwells'
> Any clues?
>
> These will be for parts I am making which are not direct replacements
> so my latch choice is left to my own arbitrary decision process. I
> have already tried to email the builder of the RV-10 that latch is on
> to no avail (I even joined the vans Air Force newsgroup over the
> deal!).
>
> I am also interested in a very similar looking flush latch that is
> used on the dorsal hatch on the Genesis 2, but also for the life of me
> cannot figure out exactly who made them and what they are called
> (Robert Mudd does not know either for that matter...), so if anyone
> has any insight on that one it would also be appreciated. Inspecting
> one up close is of no help, as the thick speckeled/textured gray
> interior coating already covers the latch bodies, hiding the crucial
> info. Anyone speak Lithuanian?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

He said he got the latches at B&B. Considering his location, I think
this may be
http://exp-aircraft.com/vendors/pagesVen/B-B-Aircraft-Supplies.html
in Gardner, KS. No web site.

Frank Whiteley

[DRN]

On Nov 11, 9:28*am, sisu1a > wrote:
> Hi All,
> I am trying to figure out who the manufacturer of the particular flush
> latch below, and after MUCH interwebbing have still turned up
> nothing.http://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20outside.jpgandhttp://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20inside.jpg
>
> It's not a Camloc (none I've run across at least...)
> I'm not interested in Hartwells'
> Any clues?
>
> These will be for parts I am making which are not direct replacements
> so my latch choice is left to my own arbitrary decision process. I
> have already tried to email the builder of the RV-10 that latch is on
> to no avail (I even joined the vans Air Force newsgroup over the
> deal!).
>
> I am also interested in a very similar looking flush latch that is
> used on the dorsal hatch on the Genesis 2, but also for the life of me
> cannot figure out exactly who made them and what they are called
> (Robert Mudd does not know either for that matter...), so if anyone
> has any insight on that one it would also be appreciated. Inspecting
> one up close is of no help, as the thick speckeled/textured gray
> interior coating already covers the latch bodies, hiding the crucial
> info. Anyone speak Lithuanian?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

Nice workmanship in those photos !
You could always make your own latches,
these are just bent metal, nothing really fancy...
Hope that's helpful,
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Or, you could just give up and use wing tape ;-)

[[email protected]]

I second the workmanship comment - love the hinge pin keeper!

It has been a while since I have done any aircraft door access panel
design. I am amazed how much suppliers have consolidated. Fairchild
has been bought by Alcoa, which apparently bought the Adams-Rite line
of aircraft handles.

You might try this page:

http://www.alcoa.com/fastening_systems/aerospace/catalog/pdf/latchingsystems.pdf

MM

[Bob Kuykendall]

Funny you should ask. Installing similar latches in the oil door of
Steve Smith's RV-8 cowling is my task for tonight and tomorrow.

Actually, the hard part of the task is taking the floppy M&W door
blank and adding foam core and an inner skin to make it a nice stiff
sandwich structure. Doing that so as to retain some footprint for the
hinge and latch will take a bit of sculpting.

But, anyhow, finding the latches was a chore. Steve called around and
found them at Beech and Cessna dealers for like $60 and $90 each. He
eventually found B&B (cited below) who had multiple sizes for $5 each.
He bought a bunch of them. That was only a couple days ago.

The B&B latches are real Camlocs, and are of a simpler mechanism than
those in your photos. I'll get a photo of one this evening and put it
up on the Web site tomorrow:

www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Thanks, Bob K.

[sisu1a]

On Nov 11, 8:52*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> Funny you should ask. Installing similar latches in the oil door of
> Steve Smith's RV-8 cowling is my task for tonight and tomorrow.
>
> Actually, the hard part of the task is taking the floppy M&W door
> blank and adding foam core and an inner skin to make it a nice stiff
> sandwich structure. Doing that so as to retain some footprint for the
> hinge and latch will take a bit of sculpting.
>
> But, anyhow, finding the latches was a chore. Steve called around and
> found them at Beech and Cessna dealers for like $60 and $90 each. He
> eventually found B&B (cited below) who had multiple sizes for $5 each.
> He bought a bunch of them. That was only a couple days ago.
>
> The B&B latches are real Camlocs, and are of a simpler mechanism than
> those in your photos. I'll get a photo of one this evening and put it
> up on the Web site tomorrow:
>
> www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Thanks all for the replies thus far. I've tried calling B&B before,
but got no answer then or now although I haven't left a message
yet...

As for RV oil access doors, this one has my vote for the slickest
solution:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=30158

Although I could adopt the 'hidden latch' technique for my own ship,
it conflicts with my project goals (making some hatches that can be
used on other ships, requiring no additional mods...)

-Paul

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 11, 11:31*am, sisu1a > wrote:

> ...As for RV oil access doors, this one has my vote for the slickest
> solution:
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=30158

Yup, pretty slick. We're using the same hinge on Steve's airplane, but
with the Camloc latch from B&B.

Also, I'd not mix carbon and fiberglass as shown. With the different
materials on the different sides, and the different sides exposed to
drastically different air temperatures, I'd expect to see it change
shape unpredictably in service. Probably not enough to make a
difference, but I think I just wouldn't even go there.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, I wrote:

> ...
> The B&B latches are real Camlocs, and are of a simpler mechanism than
> those in your photos. I'll get a photo of one this evening and put it
> up on the Web site tomorrow:
>
> www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Here are the two photos of the oil door and $5 Camloc flush latch from
B&B:

http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/QB121028a.JPG

http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/QB121029a.JPG

A couple of notes and comments:

* On that oil door, I've added a 1/16" spacer to account for the
thickness of the recess into which the oil door fits. The latch is
actually designed for a door with the same thickness as the panel it
latches to.

* The spacer prevents the button from fitting flush into the push
hole, but I'll accout for that by making a new button face on the
lathe and bonding it to the original button face.

* Yet to be done is to add a U-shaped doubler of 1/8" PVC foam and
inner ply to turn the door into a stiff fiberglass sandwich.

Thanks, Bob K.

[DRN]

On Nov 12, 10:56*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> Earlier, I wrote:
> > ...
> > The B&B latches are real Camlocs, and are of a simpler mechanism than
> > those in your photos. I'll get a photo of one this evening and put it
> > up on the Web site tomorrow:
>
> >www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
>
> > Thanks, Bob K.
>
> Here are the two photos of the oil door and $5 Camloc flush latch from
> B&B:
>
> http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/QB121028a.JPG
>
> http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/QB121029a.JPG
>
> A couple of notes and comments:
>
> * On that oil door, I've added a 1/16" spacer to account for the
> thickness of the recess into which the oil door fits. The latch is
> actually designed for a door with the same thickness as the panel it
> latches to.
>
> * The spacer prevents the button from fitting flush into the push
> hole, but I'll accout for that by making a new button face on the
> lathe and bonding it to the original button face.
>
> * Yet to be done is to add a U-shaped doubler of 1/8" PVC foam and
> inner ply to turn the door into a stiff fiberglass sandwich.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is it possible to adjust
the B&B's latch surface to accomodate different thicknesses
of hatch/shell more easily ?
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 12, 9:04*am, DRN > wrote:

> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is it possible to adjust
> the B&B's latch surface to accomodate different thicknesses
> of hatch/shell more easily ?

Not a dumb question at all. I think the best answer is "not really."
The design of that particular Camloc latch is predicated on it being
used on fairly thin panels as you'd expect for non-structural
inspection doors on aluminum aircraft. It seems to have been primarily
designed for applications where the door jamb is relieved where the
nose of the latch is, so that the latch catches on the skin panel and
not the jamb.

On metal aircraft, it looks like the latch will accommodate a thin
door jamb, and you can accommodate various greater gauges of jamb
thickness by adding a spacer under the latch frame and bending the
button arm so that the button fits flush into the hole in the door.

However, once you get into the .050" to .070" skin thicknesses you
often find with composites, and then add in a joggled door jamb of the
same thickness, you definitely have to get a bit creative to make it
work. But considering that these only cost $5 ea and the alternatives
are 12x to 18x the price, it seems worth a little extra thinking and
fussing with it.

By the way, Dave, the other night I was at a benefit dinner for the
elementary school in Yosemite Valley that serves the families of park
employees, and I sat right behind a guy who looked just like you,
except a bit more wiry. It turned out to be Hans Florine, the speed
climber who scaled El Capitan (2800 feet, usually around 30 pitches)
in 2.5 hours.

Thanks, Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

[sisu1a]

> > Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is it possible to adjust
> > the B&B's latch surface to accomodate different thicknesses
> > of hatch/shell more easily ?
>
> Not a dumb question at all. I think the best answer is "not really."
> The design of that particular Camloc latch is predicated on it being
> used on fairly thin panels as you'd expect for non-structural
> inspection doors on aluminum aircraft. It seems to have been primarily
> designed for applications where the door jamb is relieved where the
> nose of the latch is, so that the latch catches on the skin panel and
> not the jamb.
>
> On metal aircraft, it looks like the latch will accommodate a thin
> door jamb, and you can accommodate various greater gauges of jamb
> thickness by adding a spacer under the latch frame and bending the
> button arm so that the button fits flush into the hole in the door.
>
> However, once you get into the .050" to .070" skin thicknesses you
> often find with composites, and then add in a joggled door jamb of the
> same thickness, you definitely have to get a bit creative to make it
> work. But considering that these only cost $5 ea and the alternatives
> are 12x to 18x the price, it seems worth a little extra thinking and
> fussing with it.


Could one not just install them with shims in between the latch body
and the inner door surface until the desired thickness latching grip
was achieved? Of course the button would need a faceplate of equal
thickness to bring it back flush since it would be recessed the same
amount the body is spaced...

This is how I planned on overcoming this obstacle when/if I am faced
with it (my hatch rim I'm intending to use these latches on is rather
thickish...) I wanted to use a composite faceplate bonded on my button
anyhow, just for the 'slick' factor. It would also have an easier time
keeping it's paint on longer... The Genesis has composite faces bonded
to the buttons on it's hatch, and it does indeed look slick although
I'm not sure if they're set to the door with spacers in between to
manipulate the grip range.

-Paul

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 12, 10:51*am, sisu1a > wrote:

> Could one not just install them with shims in between the latch body
> and the inner door surface until the desired thickness latching grip
> was achieved? Of course the button would need a faceplate of equal
> thickness to bring it back flush since it would be recessed the same
> amount the body is spaced...

Yes, I think that will work just fine. That's what I'm doing on
Steve's RV oil door.

Thanks, Bob K.

[sisu1a]

So as a follow up for this thread, after a bit of searching and asking
around I got in contact with the builder of the RV-9A (not RV-10...)
that had the latches I posted here about, and he looked closer at his
latches for me last time he fle, ( http://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20outside.jpg,
same pics as before
and http://www.n523rv.com/fuselage/Cowl%20latch%20inside.jpg )
revealing them to be Hartwell 4050-S081 latches for those who care...

Searching for these latches was another thing entirely, as the closest
I came up with was:
http://catalogs.google.com/catalogs?id=NAT2NpmcTa0C&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&zoom=4&dq=Hartwell+H4050
Luckily Dan Brown at B&B knew exactly what I was talking about when I
called him with part numbers and descriptions this morning, and had
(past tense!) 15 left for a good price. Packed them up and shipped
them to me with a bill and an address to send the check to, despite
the fact that this is our first dealing. I just love mom and pop
aviation suppliers!

-Paul