auto fuel issues

[rich[_2_]]

right now, avgas is running $2 more a gallon than premium car gas. And
from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol. My
homebuilt has a 160 lycoming, which is supposed to be approved for
premium auto fuel. The only drawback I can think of is the stability
of auto gas sitting in tanks in the plane for extended periods. And
what I'm wondering is if that fuel stabilizer is added, that could
eliminate that issue. I use it in cans for things around the house,
and it seems to be some type of alcohol based product. I just wonder
if it would affect the vapor pressue of premium auto fuel and even
though it's added in very small amounts, could it do some of the
negative things to the fuel system components that ethonol does? does
anyone know anything about that stuff?

[news.motzarella.org]

Personally, I would contact the manufacturer and get their recommendation of
the stabilizer product before using it in airplane fuel.
"rich" > wrote in message
...
> right now, avgas is running $2 more a gallon than premium car gas. And
> from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol. My
> homebuilt has a 160 lycoming, which is supposed to be approved for
> premium auto fuel. The only drawback I can think of is the stability
> of auto gas sitting in tanks in the plane for extended periods. And
> what I'm wondering is if that fuel stabilizer is added, that could
> eliminate that issue. I use it in cans for things around the house,
> and it seems to be some type of alcohol based product. I just wonder
> if it would affect the vapor pressue of premium auto fuel and even
> though it's added in very small amounts, could it do some of the
> negative things to the fuel system components that ethonol does? does
> anyone know anything about that stuff?

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:45:34 -0500, rich >
wrote:

>right now, avgas is running $2 more a gallon than premium car gas. And
>from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol. My
>homebuilt has a 160 lycoming, which is supposed to be approved for
>premium auto fuel. The only drawback I can think of is the stability
>of auto gas sitting in tanks in the plane for extended periods. And
>what I'm wondering is if that fuel stabilizer is added, that could
>eliminate that issue. I use it in cans for things around the house,
>and it seems to be some type of alcohol based product. I just wonder
>if it would affect the vapor pressue of premium auto fuel and even
>though it's added in very small amounts, could it do some of the
>negative things to the fuel system components that ethonol does? does
>anyone know anything about that stuff?


StaBil is BHT, the same stuff they use to keep potato chips and other
greasy fast food from going rancid. So yes, it IS an alcohol type
substance - butylated hydroxy-toluene.
Not enough of it to affect vapour pressure and won't affect your
rubber or metal parts.

[Paul Dow (Remove CAPS in address)]

rich wrote:
> ... And from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol.

I would verify that. It's probably dependent on the area of the country
you're in. I think selling non-ethanol gas in Iowa is a capital offense.
I know in New England there were 3 airports getting autogas, but
starting in 2009 the fuel suppliers are going to be adding the ethanol
earlier in the process, so they can't get it from the area distributor.
They would now have to go to Canada to get it which of course makes it
uneconomical.

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:43:07 -0500, "Paul Dow (Remove CAPS in
address)" > wrote:

>rich wrote:
>> ... And from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol.
>
>I would verify that. It's probably dependent on the area of the country
>you're in. I think selling non-ethanol gas in Iowa is a capital offense.
>I know in New England there were 3 airports getting autogas, but
>starting in 2009 the fuel suppliers are going to be adding the ethanol
>earlier in the process, so they can't get it from the area distributor.
>They would now have to go to Canada to get it which of course makes it
>uneconomical.
In Canada, Shell ultra is E0, shell regular is E10.

Shell has gone on record as saying they will fight tooth and nail to
keep it that way.

[Tim Hickey]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:43:07 -0500, "Paul Dow (Remove CAPS in
address)" > wrote:

>rich wrote:
>> ... And from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol.
>
>I would verify that. It's probably dependent on the area of the country
>you're in. I think selling non-ethanol gas in Iowa is a capital offense.
>I know in New England there were 3 airports getting autogas, but
>starting in 2009 the fuel suppliers are going to be adding the ethanol
>earlier in the process, so they can't get it from the area distributor.
>They would now have to go to Canada to get it which of course makes it
>uneconomical.


Non-blended gasoline is widely available in Iowa. The Iowa legislature
took a run at making a requirement that all fuel sold in the state
contains ethanol, but that law did not pass. I am not even sure that
it got further than being a proposal. Our neighbors in Missouri are
not as lucky. All their fuel is blended with 10% ethanol, except for
a premium, higher octane fuel. Which is available, but not all
stations carry it.
Iowa did try to sneak a law past that says that retailers no longer
must post on the pump that a fuel contains ethanol. The theory was
that out of state drivers would see the ethanol label on the pump, and
choose not to use it. This only goes to show how sneaky some lawmakers
can be. Rest assured that I wrote several letters to express my
concern about that.

As a side note, it is beginning to look like the bloom is off the
ethanol rose. It never was a good idea anyway, and we see in the
newspaper here that many ethanol plants are shutting down. Mainly
because the price of corn is so high, but also because demand is down.
Putting ethanol made from corn in our gas will not solve our energy
issues in this country. (don't get me started!)

I have ran over 10,000 gallons of regular gasoline through my Zenith
CH-300 with a Lyc O-320, 150 horse. This is over the last 21 years and
1700+ hours. I think that the retail pump claims an octane of 87 for
straight gas. I would not be too worried about running a higher
octane, (maybe it is 91 octane?) through a 160 hp Lyc. Volumes have
been written about this, and as always, you are responsible for your
own actions.

I now test every batch of fuel that I buy, and make sure that it does
not contain ethanol. I have two 40 gallon ferry tanks, with an
electric pump for filling the plane, and so far, it has worked out
quite well.

Tim

Zenith CH-300 Driver.

[Blueskies]

"Tim Hickey" > wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:43:07 -0500, "Paul Dow (Remove CAPS in
> address)" > wrote:
>
>>rich wrote:
>>> ... And from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol.
>>
>>I would verify that. It's probably dependent on the area of the country
>>you're in. I think selling non-ethanol gas in Iowa is a capital offense.
>>I know in New England there were 3 airports getting autogas, but
>>starting in 2009 the fuel suppliers are going to be adding the ethanol
>>earlier in the process, so they can't get it from the area distributor.
>>They would now have to go to Canada to get it which of course makes it
>>uneconomical.
>
>
> Non-blended gasoline is widely available in Iowa. The Iowa legislature
> took a run at making a requirement that all fuel sold in the state
> contains ethanol, but that law did not pass. I am not even sure that
> it got further than being a proposal. Our neighbors in Missouri are
> not as lucky. All their fuel is blended with 10% ethanol, except for
> a premium, higher octane fuel. Which is available, but not all
> stations carry it.
> Iowa did try to sneak a law past that says that retailers no longer
> must post on the pump that a fuel contains ethanol. The theory was
> that out of state drivers would see the ethanol label on the pump, and
> choose not to use it. This only goes to show how sneaky some lawmakers
> can be. Rest assured that I wrote several letters to express my
> concern about that.
>
> As a side note, it is beginning to look like the bloom is off the
> ethanol rose. It never was a good idea anyway, and we see in the
> newspaper here that many ethanol plants are shutting down. Mainly
> because the price of corn is so high, but also because demand is down.
> Putting ethanol made from corn in our gas will not solve our energy
> issues in this country. (don't get me started!)
>
> I have ran over 10,000 gallons of regular gasoline through my Zenith
> CH-300 with a Lyc O-320, 150 horse. This is over the last 21 years and
> 1700+ hours. I think that the retail pump claims an octane of 87 for
> straight gas. I would not be too worried about running a higher
> octane, (maybe it is 91 octane?) through a 160 hp Lyc. Volumes have
> been written about this, and as always, you are responsible for your
> own actions.
>
> I now test every batch of fuel that I buy, and make sure that it does
> not contain ethanol. I have two 40 gallon ferry tanks, with an
> electric pump for filling the plane, and so far, it has worked out
> quite well.
>
> Tim
>
> Zenith CH-300 Driver.

How do you test the fuel you are buying? I would be very wary of any auto fuel. I have the auto fuel STC for the c-172,
but I have not been able to find any fuel in the last year or so that is not contaminated with alcohol here in MI.

There is no federal requirement anymore to label pumps that dispense alcohol contaminated gasoline. Are you saying that
Iowa has a specific law that does require this label?

[Tim Hickey]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:15:49 -0500, "Blueskies"
> wrote:

>
>How do you test the fuel you are buying? I would be very wary of any auto fuel. I have the auto fuel STC for the c-172,
>but I have not been able to find any fuel in the last year or so that is not contaminated with alcohol here in MI.
>
>There is no federal requirement anymore to label pumps that dispense alcohol contaminated gasoline. Are you saying that
>Iowa has a specific law that does require this label?
>
I do the gas plus water test. You can read about it here:

http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/ethanoltest.html

I do not know about a federal law for labeling pumps. I do know that
some Iowa legislators wanted to pass a bill to pull the labels off of
retail pumps so that people would not know what they are buying. Here
a gallon of regular gas is about 2.05, and a gallon of blended (10%)
fuel is around 1.99. So those who do not care about the cost in
dollars pre mile often buy the cheaper stuff. But they then get less
miles per gallon, and it ends up costing them more. Ethanol blended
fuel get tax subsidies to the tune of close to 50 cents a gallon. It
would never compete in the market without that funding.


Zenith CH-300 Driver.

[Dave S]

rich wrote:
> right now, avgas is running $2 more a gallon than premium car gas. And
> from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol.

Ethanol content may exist in premium autofuels. There is no systematic
guarantee because you buy "hi test" or "super unleaded"

Ethanol was used to replace MTBE as an oxygenate in fuels. The
oxygenated fuels are driven by EPA and in some cases, state
environmental regs. In my market, ALL mogas is presumed to contain up to
10% ethanol.

Dave
KEFD

[Peter Dohm]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
...
> rich wrote:
>> right now, avgas is running $2 more a gallon than premium car gas. And
>> from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol.
>
> Ethanol content may exist in premium autofuels. There is no systematic
> guarantee because you buy "hi test" or "super unleaded"
>
> Ethanol was used to replace MTBE as an oxygenate in fuels. The oxygenated
> fuels are driven by EPA and in some cases, state environmental regs. In my
> market, ALL mogas is presumed to contain up to 10% ethanol.
>
> Dave
> KEFD

Right and, like so much of the other "trash talk" that I heard in the past
year, the argument for oxiginates is about twenty years out of date--even on
a seasonal basis. The reason that it no longer makes any sense is that all
gasolene powered automobiles and light trucks have included oxigen sensors
in the exhaust for at least long--including the last generation of
carburetor equiped veicles. Therefore there are no longer a seasonal, or
weather related, periods of rich and lean operation.

By the same token, there is no longer a reason for seasonal tune-ups since
the engine control systems accomplish that--plus altitude
compensation--continuously.

I will skip the tire issue, as it is less relevant to aviation.

Peter

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:33:44 -0600, Dave S >
wrote:

>rich wrote:
>> right now, avgas is running $2 more a gallon than premium car gas. And
>> from what I've read, premium auto gas doesn't contain ethonol.
>
>Ethanol content may exist in premium autofuels. There is no systematic
>guarantee because you buy "hi test" or "super unleaded"
>
>Ethanol was used to replace MTBE as an oxygenate in fuels. The
>oxygenated fuels are driven by EPA and in some cases, state
>environmental regs. In my market, ALL mogas is presumed to contain up to
>10% ethanol.
>
>Dave
>KEFD
The operative word is "up to"
In the case of Shell Canada, that means 10% in regular.
0% in Premium
Meand 5% in mid grade (blended)

[Denny]

Michigan quietly passed a rule in May 08 that all mogas MUST contain
alcohol (*******s) without any public comment....

denny

[Anyolmouse]

"Denny" > wrote in message
...
| Michigan quietly passed a rule in May 08 that all mogas MUST contain
| alcohol (*******s) without any public comment....
|
| denny

The governor of Texas asked the EPA to release the state from the 10%
ethanol mandate: http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/5270/
and his request was refused::
http://governor.state.tx.us/highlight/ethanol This was an EPA mandate,
not originating from Michigan or any other state. Oklahoma is/was
dragging their feet on the madated 10% ethanol as was other states. So
don't blame Michigan, the blame goes to our federal guv'mint.
--
Anyolmouse

[Sliker[_3_]]

I wonder if any auto fuel, premium or otherwise is even available
without ethanol added? If that's the case, they have pretty much
elimintated the use of it in aircraft. But I've also noticed avgas
available just recently that is getting so cheap, I'm loosing interest
fast in finding alternatives. Check airnav.com, at Leesburg, FL,
Triangle has full serve 100 octane for $2.79 a gallon. What a welcome
sight that is! It's like coming out of the dark ages of recent past.
Let's just hope it isn't a temporary phenomenom that doesn't last
long. I guess since FBO's buy fuel in a much longer time period that
gas stations, it may take a while before they can purchase a load at
the new prices and pass it on to us. But then there are a lot of them
that will try to hang on to the "old" prices and greedily make a large
profit. Definitely the time to do a lot of research before going on a
cross country so you know where to land and where not to for fuel.





On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:22:05 -0600, "Anyolmouse"
> wrote:

>
>"Denny" > wrote in message
...
>| Michigan quietly passed a rule in May 08 that all mogas MUST contain
>| alcohol (*******s) without any public comment....
>|
>| denny
>
>The governor of Texas asked the EPA to release the state from the 10%
>ethanol mandate: http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/5270/
>and his request was refused::
>http://governor.state.tx.us/highlight/ethanol This was an EPA mandate,
>not originating from Michigan or any other state. Oklahoma is/was
>dragging their feet on the madated 10% ethanol as was other states. So
>don't blame Michigan, the blame goes to our federal guv'mint.

[Maxwell[_2_]]

We still have a few auto stations in Oklahoma that advertise no alcohol.


"Sliker" > wrote in message
...
|I wonder if any auto fuel, premium or otherwise is even available
| without ethanol added? If that's the case, they have pretty much
| elimintated the use of it in aircraft. But I've also noticed avgas
| available just recently that is getting so cheap, I'm loosing interest
| fast in finding alternatives. Check airnav.com, at Leesburg, FL,
| Triangle has full serve 100 octane for $2.79 a gallon. What a welcome
| sight that is! It's like coming out of the dark ages of recent past.
| Let's just hope it isn't a temporary phenomenom that doesn't last
| long. I guess since FBO's buy fuel in a much longer time period that
| gas stations, it may take a while before they can purchase a load at
| the new prices and pass it on to us. But then there are a lot of them
| that will try to hang on to the "old" prices and greedily make a large
| profit. Definitely the time to do a lot of research before going on a
| cross country so you know where to land and where not to for fuel.
|
|
|
|
|
| On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:22:05 -0600, "Anyolmouse"
| > wrote:
|
| >
| >"Denny" > wrote in message
| ...
| >| Michigan quietly passed a rule in May 08 that all mogas MUST contain
| >| alcohol (*******s) without any public comment....
| >|
| >| denny
| >
| >The governor of Texas asked the EPA to release the state from the 10%
| >ethanol mandate: http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/5270/
| >and his request was refused::
| >http://governor.state.tx.us/highlight/ethanol This was an EPA mandate,
| >not originating from Michigan or any other state. Oklahoma is/was
| >dragging their feet on the madated 10% ethanol as was other states. So
| >don't blame Michigan, the blame goes to our federal guv'mint.
|