homebuilt +/- 1350 lbs gross?

[jan olieslagers[_2_]]

After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.

What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
European roots an advantage.

TIA,
KA

[Jim Logajan]

jan olieslagers > wrote:
> After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
> www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
> Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
> even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.
>
> What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
> 1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
> Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
> European roots an advantage.

Don't know how it compares in price (after currency conversion) but the
Arion Lightning ( http://www.flylightning.net/ ) meets the gross weight and
HP range (and is a low wing composite like the Europa). It's American,
though.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:36:51 +0000, jan olieslagers
> wrote:

>After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
>www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
>Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
>even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.
>
>What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
>1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
>Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
>European roots an advantage.
>
>TIA,
>KA
Tapanee Aviation's Pegazair is a 1450 lb Utility Category, 1550 lb
Normal category 2 seater designed around 85-115HP.

Empty weight with a Continental O200 is 815 lb.

Kit or plans
Rag and tube fuselage and all aluminum flying surfaces.

[Tim Hickey]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:36:51 +0000, jan olieslagers
> wrote:

>After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
>www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
>Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
>even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.
>
>What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
>1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
>Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
>European roots an advantage.
>
>TIA,
>KA

My brother and I are engaged (more or less) in the building of a
Murphy Rebel which we will register so as to fly light sport. The
Rebel was designed to be a 1650 gross weight machine, but with
attention to keeping things light we believe that we can keep the
empty weight at 750 pounds, more or less.(mostly more) That will give
us a payload of 570 pounds. For comparison, the Cessna LSA model is
projected to be about 800 pounds. Give or take.
The biggest problem with this is the choice of engine. The Rotax 912
is the most recommended engine to do what we intend. It is 100 hp, and
I think the installed weight is around 150 pounds. The Continental
O-200 is heaver, at somewhere around 210, and is still 100 hp. The Lyc
O-233 shown at OSH this year is supposed to make 116 hp at 2800 rpm.
And it is supposed to weight in at 200 pounds. And burn auto fuel.
That would be my choice, if the engine is on the market when we are
ready for one.



Zenith CH-300 Driver.

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:45:34 GMT, (Tim
Hickey) wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:36:51 +0000, jan olieslagers
> wrote:
>
>>After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
>>www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
>>Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
>>even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.
>>
>>What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
>>1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
>>Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
>>European roots an advantage.
>>
>>TIA,
>>KA
>
>My brother and I are engaged (more or less) in the building of a
>Murphy Rebel which we will register so as to fly light sport. The
>Rebel was designed to be a 1650 gross weight machine, but with
>attention to keeping things light we believe that we can keep the
>empty weight at 750 pounds, more or less.(mostly more) That will give
>us a payload of 570 pounds. For comparison, the Cessna LSA model is
>projected to be about 800 pounds. Give or take.
>The biggest problem with this is the choice of engine. The Rotax 912
>is the most recommended engine to do what we intend. It is 100 hp, and
>I think the installed weight is around 150 pounds. The Continental
>O-200 is heaver, at somewhere around 210, and is still 100 hp. The Lyc
>O-233 shown at OSH this year is supposed to make 116 hp at 2800 rpm.
>And it is supposed to weight in at 200 pounds. And burn auto fuel.
>That would be my choice, if the engine is on the market when we are
>ready for one.
>
>
>
>Zenith CH-300 Driver.

You should be able to get close to 750 Tim. On wheels my 0-320 powered
rebel is 902lbs empty weight.

[Griff]

If you don't consider one of the Jodel line,you could be overlooking a
winner. One a bit lighter is the Menestrel ll,both wood
designs.Emmeraude should also be included.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 19, 5:57*am, Griff > wrote:
> If you don't consider one of the Jodel line,you could be overlooking a
> winner. One a bit lighter is the Menestrel ll,both wood
> designs.Emmeraude should also be included.

The Emeraude definitely fits the mission. Easily built within the
weight limits with a Cont. 100, even a Lyc. O-235 powered bird can
come in close to 800#. You can also build a monster with hydraulic
canopy lift, air conditioning, and espresso bar that'll run 1300#
empty! For more info, try:

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepEmeraude.html

http://asia.groups.yahoo.com/group/Emerauders/

Rich S.

[jan olieslagers[_2_]]

jan olieslagers schreef:
> After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
> www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
> Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
> even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.
>
> What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
> 1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
> Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
> European roots an advantage.

Thanks to all who replied, I learned quite a few things.
And I must apologise for not describing the mission:
this must be a tourer, with good range above all
and a fair cruising speed a close second. Third come
fuel economy and engine reliability.
That said the Europa seems unbeatable, achieving
200 mph cruise on a 100HP Rotax 912S.

-) the Avion Lightning is one I never heard of.
But even with 120 HP it only manages 150-170 mph cruise?
-) the Jodel's are in another class, they were never meant for more
than +/- 60 HP and perform accordingly
-) The Emeraude is one I should have thought of,
and will be looking into; like the Menestrel I didn't know yet.
Wood construction certainly has an appeal for me.
-) Pegazair and Rebel are STOL/bush planes,
don't fit the mission.

All this being said, can we discuss engine choice?
In the 80-100 HP range, Lycosaurs seem unfit given
their high fuel burn. Rotax seems the obvious choice,
they're widely available and not excessively expensive.
A diesel would be nice for its low fuel burn
and good performance at altitude, but those designed
for aviation (Wilksch, SMA, Delta Hawk, Dair...)
are rare and expensive, while car conversions are
heavy and too complex for my limited mechanical ability.
Best compromise seems a Rotax 914, its turbo should much
improve altitude performance, but don't see many
of these around either...?

Thanks again for thinking along!
KA

[Jim Logajan]

jan olieslagers > wrote:
> jan olieslagers schreef:
>> After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
>> www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
....
> That said the Europa seems unbeatable, achieving
> 200 mph cruise on a 100HP Rotax 912S.
....

Um, according to the web site you provided, at 8000 ft and 75% power, the
912S achieves 155 mph TAS, not 200 mph TAS. The 200 mph is with a
different (much more expensive) engine at a higher altitude.

> -) the Avion Lightning is one I never heard of.
> But even with 120 HP it only manages 150-170 mph cruise?

I suspect that the 914 would have similar speeds at the quoted 8000 ft
altitude and 75% power fraction. If you are going to fly high, then a
turbo would probably be appropriate. And the Arion Lightning isn't the
slouch you think it is:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=49642
Note the Lightning was traveling at 185 mph TAS at a DA of 3840 ft.

Also note that in the U.S., at least, a Rotax 914 costs ~US$28000 while a
Jabiru 3300 costs ~US$15500:

http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_engines/rotax_914UL.htm
http://www.jabirupacific.com/

Not sure what the cost difference is like in Europe. You can buy a lot of
fuel for that extra ~US$12500. Probably well over 400 flight hours of
fuel.

> All this being said, can we discuss engine choice?
> In the 80-100 HP range, Lycosaurs seem unfit given
> their high fuel burn. Rotax seems the obvious choice,
> they're widely available and not excessively expensive.

In the U.S. at least, Rotax engines have become expensive.

> Best compromise seems a Rotax 914, its turbo should much
> improve altitude performance, but don't see many
> of these around either...?

Probably because turbos costs a lot not only to buy, but to maintain.

[jan olieslagers[_2_]]

Jim Logajan schreef:
> jan olieslagers > wrote:
> ...
>> That said the Europa seems unbeatable, achieving
>> 200 mph cruise on a 100HP Rotax 912S.
> ...
>
> Um, according to the web site you provided, at 8000 ft and 75% power,
the 912S achieves 155 mph TAS, not 200 mph TAS. The 200 mph is with a
different (much more expensive) engine at a higher altitude.
>
>> -) the Avion Lightning is one I never heard of.
>> But even with 120 HP it only manages 150-170 mph cruise?
>
> I suspect that the 914 would have similar speeds at the quoted 8000
ft altitude and 75% power fraction. If you are going to fly high, then a
turbo would probably be appropriate. And the Arion Lightning isn't the
slouch you think it is:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=49642
> Note the Lightning was traveling at 185 mph TAS at a DA of 3840 ft.
>

OK, my mistake, I was comparing apples to pears.
Thanks for the correction!
KA

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

jan olieslagers wrote:
> jan olieslagers schreef:
>> After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
>> www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
>> Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
>> even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.
>>
>> What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
>> 1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
>> Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
>> European roots an advantage.
>
> Thanks to all who replied, I learned quite a few things.
> And I must apologise for not describing the mission:
> this must be a tourer, with good range above all
> and a fair cruising speed a close second. Third come
> fuel economy and engine reliability.
> That said the Europa seems unbeatable, achieving
> 200 mph cruise on a 100HP Rotax 912S.
>
> -) the Avion Lightning is one I never heard of.
> But even with 120 HP it only manages 150-170 mph cruise?
> -) the Jodel's are in another class, they were never meant for more
> than +/- 60 HP and perform accordingly
> -) The Emeraude is one I should have thought of,
> and will be looking into; like the Menestrel I didn't know yet.
> Wood construction certainly has an appeal for me.
> -) Pegazair and Rebel are STOL/bush planes,
> don't fit the mission.
>
> All this being said, can we discuss engine choice?
> In the 80-100 HP range, Lycosaurs seem unfit given
> their high fuel burn. Rotax seems the obvious choice,
> they're widely available and not excessively expensive.
> A diesel would be nice for its low fuel burn
> and good performance at altitude, but those designed
> for aviation (Wilksch, SMA, Delta Hawk, Dair...)
> are rare and expensive, while car conversions are
> heavy and too complex for my limited mechanical ability.
> Best compromise seems a Rotax 914, its turbo should much
> improve altitude performance, but don't see many
> of these around either...?
>
> Thanks again for thinking along!
> KA


www.flycorvair.com

[[email protected]]

On Nov 19, 11:04*am, jan olieslagers >
wrote:
> jan olieslagers schreef:
>
(snip)
> this must be a tourer, with good range above all
> and a fair cruising speed a close second. Third come
> fuel economy and engine reliability.
> That said the Europa seems unbeatable, achieving
> 200 mph cruise on a 100HP Rotax 912S.
(snip)
> -) The Emeraude is one I should have thought of,
> and will be looking into; . . .

Jan ..........

If you're looking for Europa-type speed, the Emeraude loses. Mine,
with an O-320, cruises at 75% at 120 knots @ 8 gph.

Rich S.

[Uli]

jan olieslagers wrote:

> After due examination of mission, the Europa (see
> www.europa-aircraft.com) is my ideal plane.
> Following inspection of budget, it seems too expensive;
> even if the sterling/euro rate became more favourable.
>
> What other homebuilts are around with a grossweight of
> 1300-1400 pounds, and accepting a 100-120 hp engine?
> Both kits and plans-built can be considered.
> European roots an advantage.
>


hi jan,

you might take a look at the DAC RangeR, a dutch homebuilt project using an
automobile diesel engine adapted for aviation use. the airplane was shown
at an early stage at the friedrichshafen Aero exhibition some years ago. i
don't know the current status of the project; check their internet site:

http://www.dac-ranger.nl


cheers,
uli

[jan olieslagers[_2_]]

Uli schreef:
> hi jan,
>
> you might take a look at the DAC RangeR, a dutch homebuilt project using an
> automobile diesel engine adapted for aviation use. the airplane was shown
> at an early stage at the friedrichshafen Aero exhibition some years ago. i
> don't know the current status of the project; check their internet site:
>
> http://www.dac-ranger.nl

Funny, that. I stumbled across this very plane this very morning
when looking up the CZAW SportCruiser I saw at a nearby aerodrome...
(but which turns out to be offered as a factory-built only).
I might well ask for the current status by mail.
As said before, I tend to mistrust diesel car conversions
because of their heavy weight; but questions are for free, aren't they?

Thanks for thinking along!