Canadian Pilot wants U.S. Certificate

[[email protected]]

Hi Guys,

Hopefully, you can help me get this figured out. I'm going on a trip
to Florida next summer, and I'd like to fly a glider while I'm there
(I kept seeing gorgeous Cu's from Mickey-Mouse-Land). I figured I
would get checked out in a Grob 103 and then go have some fun in a
Grob 102 or similar single-seater.

According to the FAA website, I just need to send an application form
along with a copy of my Canadian licence and medical for confirmation
and approval, then a visit to the Rochester FSDO to get the licence.

However, the Rochester FSDO says that I can't have a licence. The
response is:
>>
According to our guidance, we will be unable to process your request.

"Some foreign CAAs have issued pilot licenses that do not identify
the
grade of pilot license. In those instances, do not issue a
U.S.pilot
certificate. The holder of that kind of foreign pilot license does
not
meet ICAO standards for pilot certification."

The Canadian glider certificate does not include the wording
"private"
or "commercial". Because of this we can not issue a US certificate
based on your Canadian privileges.
<<

So, I said, "Well, I have a 'Private Pilot - Aeroplane' licence and a
glider licence... can I please get a U.S. glider licence. Again,
"No". I can get a U.S. power licence and fly N# power planes, but
can't fly N# gliders. (I can take my Canadian registered glider to
the U.S. and fly it on my Cdn licence, but not N# gliders).

There HAS to be some simple way for me to fly solo in the U.S., but
how?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
John

[[email protected]]

On Nov 24, 6:56*am, wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> Hopefully, you can help me get this figured out. *I'm going on a trip
> to Florida next summer, and I'd like to fly a glider while I'm there
> (I kept seeing gorgeous Cu's from Mickey-Mouse-Land). *I figured I
> would get checked out in a Grob 103 and then go have some fun in a
> Grob 102 or similar single-seater.
>
> According to the FAA website, I just need to send an application form
> along with a copy of my Canadian licence and medical for confirmation
> and approval, then a visit to the Rochester FSDO to get the licence.
>
> However, the Rochester FSDO says that I can't have a licence. *The
> response is:
>
> According to our guidance, we will be unable to process your request.
>
> * "Some foreign CAAs have issued pilot licenses that do not identify
> the
> * grade of pilot license. *In those instances, do not issue a
> U.S.pilot
> * certificate. *The holder of that kind of foreign pilot license does
> not
> * meet ICAO standards for pilot certification."
>
> * The Canadian glider certificate does not include the wording
> "private"
> * or "commercial". *Because of this we can not issue a US certificate
> * based on your Canadian privileges.
> <<
>
> So, I said, "Well, I have a 'Private Pilot - Aeroplane' licence and a
> glider licence... can I please get a U.S. glider licence. *Again,
> "No". *I can get a U.S. power licence and fly N# power planes, but
> can't fly N# gliders. *(I can take my Canadian registered glider to
> the U.S. and fly it on my Cdn licence, but not N# gliders).
>
> There HAS to be some simple way for me to fly solo in the U.S., but
> how?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
> John

John:

The simplest way, since you plan to fly solo anyway (Grob 102) is to
fly on a student certificate. Any Designated Examiner or FSDO will
issue you a student certificate when you show then a photo ID
(driver's license with photo, or passport) and give them $10. You
will need to get checked out by the FBO, but you would anyway before
they'd rent you a glider (or at least that's the way we do it here at
SoaringNV in Minden.) The checkout will include a solo endorsement
that is good for 90 days, and off you go. Check with the FBO in
advance to make sure they agree with this procedure, but (like I say)
that's the way we do it here.

While you're mulling this over, you might consider getting an FAA
private glider certificate. It would require a written test (60
questions) and a flight check, but you're probably pretty much ready
for all that anyway. Once you have it, you can fly N number gliders
anywhere. If you plan on flying in the US several times (and why not,
we have some great flying here), it's probably a worthwhile
investment. You could probably do it in 4 days, and enjoy yourself in
the process. Write me directly if you'd like to schedule such an
endeavor here in Minden.

Fred LaSor
SoaringNV
Minden, NV
775 782-9595
flasor_AT_frognet.net

[[email protected]]

Thanks, Fred.

SoaringNV is on my list of places to visit for the future (gotta
convince the wife!). We're heading to Orlando, FL (wife is addicted
to Disney), so I thought I'd go to Seminole -- only 20 minutes from
Orlando and a club-member flies there in the winter and likes it.

Why would it take 4 days to complete the licence? Writing the test
should be fairly quick, and I think I can convince an instructor that
I know what I'm doing in fairly short order.

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

Hello John,

Since you are going to fly at Seminole-Lake Gliderport west of
Orlando, FL, then contact Knut and explain what you need. He will
know your options. His website is www.soarfl.com

As a DPE I have issued (by checkride) more than 35 US glider pilot
certificates NOT "based upon" the foreign license in the past 2 years
to non-US citizens. There is a TSA / Homeland Security exemption for
your glider pilot training.

(Note to CFIG's: You can find this TSA glider waiver on the www.AOPA.org
website or email me for a copy.)

To earn a US PVT / COM Glider Pilot certificate, you must take the FAA
"Airman Knowledge Test" (written) for Private or Commercial Glider,
then get the minimum (at least) ground and flight training required by
FAR part 61, then be recommended by a US CFIG for a practical test
(checkride) by a FAA Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE).

As a glider pilot in Canada, you will find this written test that you
must take in advance of the checkride to be fairly easy if you study.
I recommend the "Glider Pilot Ground School" book as one of many
resources. Obtain the current Jacksonville Aeronautical chart and the
Orlando Class B chart and study them for the practical test, since
Seminole-Lake Gliderport is between the Tampa and Orlando class B
airspace.

There is another method that would be totally at the discretion of a
DPE: Issue you a US Student Pilot Certificate. This may not sit well
with the owners of the rental gliders, nor with their insurance
underwriters. I certainly would not rent my gliders based on a "no-
test" Student Certificate because I would want that pilot to know the
US procedures, signals, regulations and airspace.

Upon reflection, there are three levels of rule-making: The FAA, the
Insurance Underwriters, and the Owners of the aircraft. If this
means we are a safer community of glider pilots, then this is good. A
safer soaring community probably keeps the FAA from expanding the
already minimal rules for glider pilot certifications, and keeps us
"insurable" in the minds of the insurance underwriters.

So, get ground and flight training (from a US CFIG) in US procedures
and go ahead and earn your US certificate if you plan to fly "N"
registered gliders in the USA. The previous reciprocal agreements
for pilot licenses have changed since the events of 9/11/2001. The
reciprocal agreement that is specific to US and Canadian pilots is for
Airplane only. (This was FAA Notice N 8000.364 effective May 4,
2007.)

You still can get the US "restricted" Private Pilot certificate "based
upon" your foreign license, but this now requires written
"verification" of your foreign license by the FAA with your country's
aviation authority. Info on this verification application process is
on the FAA website www.faa.gov This method is time consuming and
the last guys who did this with me had to wait about 2 months for FAA
to complete the paperwork. Then they had to make an appointment with
the FAA FSDO inspector who was familiar with this process. Note this
is the FAA paperwork, not the TSA "background check" from which glider
pilots are exempted (although a few FAA inspectors do not know about
this TSA waiver.)

So it is probably faster, easier and smarter to take the US written
test and the checkride to earn the "unrestricted" regular US pilot
certificate in category glider. You already have the flying skills,
so enjoy a mental workout on the US rules and procedures and you'll
have a US certificate in your pocket in no time.

Burt
Marfa, Texas USA

[vontresc]

On Nov 24, 8:56*am, wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> Hopefully, you can help me get this figured out. *I'm going on a trip
> to Florida next summer, and I'd like to fly a glider while I'm there
> (I kept seeing gorgeous Cu's from Mickey-Mouse-Land). *I figured I
> would get checked out in a Grob 103 and then go have some fun in a
> Grob 102 or similar single-seater.
>
> According to the FAA website, I just need to send an application form
> along with a copy of my Canadian licence and medical for confirmation
> and approval, then a visit to the Rochester FSDO to get the licence.
>
> However, the Rochester FSDO says that I can't have a licence. *The
> response is:
>
> According to our guidance, we will be unable to process your request.
>
> * "Some foreign CAAs have issued pilot licenses that do not identify
> the
> * grade of pilot license. *In those instances, do not issue a
> U.S.pilot
> * certificate. *The holder of that kind of foreign pilot license does
> not
> * meet ICAO standards for pilot certification."
>
> * The Canadian glider certificate does not include the wording
> "private"
> * or "commercial". *Because of this we can not issue a US certificate
> * based on your Canadian privileges.
> <<
>
> So, I said, "Well, I have a 'Private Pilot - Aeroplane' licence and a
> glider licence... can I please get a U.S. glider licence. *Again,
> "No". *I can get a U.S. power licence and fly N# power planes, but
> can't fly N# gliders. *(I can take my Canadian registered glider to
> the U.S. and fly it on my Cdn licence, but not N# gliders).
>
> There HAS to be some simple way for me to fly solo in the U.S., but
> how?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
> John

Have you tried a different FSDO? I know that all FSDOs should give you
the same answer, but a lot of times you well get very different
responses from different FSDOs. It sounds to me like you got an overly
anal inspector. I cannot figure out why they wouldn't just give you
the lower rating it it isn't completely clear.

Pete

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

On Nov 24, 9:57�am, wrote:

> Why would it take 4 days to complete the licence? �Writing the test
> should be fairly quick, and I think I can convince an instructor that
> I know what I'm doing in fairly short order.

Interesting comment, which may send up a red flag in most CFI's
minds. Reminds of the transition pilot who inquired about a "crash
course" in glider flying with me at Marfa. After a good laugh and an
explanation of the process, he decided to spend a few extra days here
to earn his glider rating, and we both enjoyed the time together.

Please know we (Knut, Fred, Burt and many other CFIG's) are here to
help you meet your goals, but it is not what YOU think, it is what
your instructor and FAA Pilot Examiner think about your knowledge and
skill. So enjoy the process! Take your time -- do it right -- be
proficient to a high standard. It's actually more fun for all of us
if you do it this way.

Burt
Marfa, Texas USA

[[email protected]]

> Have you tried a different FSDO? I know that all FSDOs should give you
> the same answer, but a lot of times you well get very different
> responses from different FSDOs. It sounds to me like you got an overly
> anal inspector. I cannot figure out why they wouldn't just give you
> the lower rating it it isn't completely clear.

Unfortunately, Rochester FSDO is where I would end up -- I live just
outside of Toronto, so Rochester is the closest place for me to go
(about 4 or so hours to drive).

I think I'll send the paperwork to the FAA in (Oklahoma?) and see what
happens, at most, it'll cost me a stamp... I'm not going to Florida
until August, so a few months of processing won't matter to me.

I've also contacted Knut at Seminole about this situation to see what
he recommends (since it'll be his planes that I fly).

Thanks, all.
John

[[email protected]]

On Nov 24, 11:32*am, Burt Compton - Marfa > wrote:
> On Nov 24, 9:57 am, wrote:
>
> > Why would it take 4 days to complete the licence? Writing the test
> > should be fairly quick, and I think I can convince an instructor that
> > I know what I'm doing in fairly short order.
>
> Interesting comment, which may send up a red flag in most CFI's
> minds. *

Burt,

My comment was regards to the earlier posting about writing the exam
and doing some checkrides to get my U.S. certificate, it didn't seem
to me that I'd require a full course. I'm currently a licenced glider
pilot and instructor in Canada, as well as holder of a Private Pilot -
Aeroplane. I'm technically "low-time" at only 90 or so hours on
gliders, but I'm current and competently skilled (yes, there are
improvements to be done -- who can honestly say otherwise?). It
should be quickly obvious to a CFI that I know what I'm doing with a
glider -- no red flags at all.

I just can't "wrap my head around" the seeming requirement that I take
a full course to gain a licence to exercise flying privileges that I
already have in my home country. After all, the FAA would have no
problem if I brought my own ship (Kestrel 19) down to the States and
flew it... why the problem with getting even a temporary or restricted
licence to fly an N# glider? I don't wish to instruct or even fly a
passenger while there; I just want to enjoy the thermals for a few
hours.

I have no problems with doing a checkride or three to demonstrate to
the owner that I'm a competent pilot capable of safely flying and
returning the aircraft. I would expect to be checked at any club that
I visit; I'm subject to a Spring proficiency check at my own club each
year, both front and rear seat. I just don't know why I'd need a 4-
day course to demonstrate the skills that I would have been teaching
to my students in Canada the week before my trip.

John

[[email protected]]

On Nov 24, 9:59*am, wrote:
> On Nov 24, 11:32*am, Burt Compton - Marfa > wrote:
>
> > On Nov 24, 9:57 am, wrote:
>
> > > Why would it take 4 days to complete the licence? Writing the test
> > > should be fairly quick, and I think I can convince an instructor that
> > > I know what I'm doing in fairly short order.
>
> > Interesting comment, which may send up a red flag in most CFI's
> > minds. *
>
> Burt,
>
> My comment was regards to the earlier posting about writing the exam
> and doing some checkrides to get my U.S. certificate, it didn't seem
> to me that I'd require a full course. *I'm currently a licenced glider
> pilot and instructor in Canada, as well as holder of a Private Pilot -
> Aeroplane. *I'm technically "low-time" at only 90 or so hours on
> gliders, but I'm current and competently skilled (yes, there are
> improvements to be done -- who can honestly say otherwise?). *It
> should be quickly obvious to a CFI that I know what I'm doing with a
> glider -- no red flags at all.
>
> I just can't "wrap my head around" the seeming requirement that I take
> a full course to gain a licence to exercise flying privileges that I
> already have in my home country. *After all, the FAA would have no
> problem if I brought my own ship (Kestrel 19) down to the States and
> flew it... why the problem with getting even a temporary or restricted
> licence to fly an N# glider? *I don't wish to instruct or even fly a
> passenger while there; *I just want to enjoy the thermals for a few
> hours.
>
> I have no problems with doing a checkride or three to demonstrate to
> the owner that I'm a competent pilot capable of safely flying and
> returning the aircraft. *I would expect to be checked at any club that
> I visit; I'm subject to a Spring proficiency check at my own club each
> year, both front and rear seat. *I just don't know why I'd need a 4-
> day course to demonstrate the skills that I would have been teaching
> to my students in Canada the week before my trip.
>
> John

John:

When I said 4 days, I actually mean 4 days given your prior experience
AND if you do a fair amount of study in advance. Four days is, in
truth, a short time for earning a certificate, and I have to agree
with Burt that it is a good time to take your time, enjoy yourself,
and learn things you might not get flying in Canada (like a nice wave
flight, or some western thermals with high tops but narrow cores).
Four days might sound to you like a long time, but even with your
experience we have to be satisfied that you are ready to answer ALL
the questions and do ALL the maneuvers before we endorse you and send
you to a DPE. Trust me, when we endorse you, you will be overprepared
for the check ride. But the alternative is not acceptable: it's the
stuff you DON'T know that will bite you later!

Oh, and tell the wife she will most decidedly enjoy herself here while
you're soaring at Minden: fantastic scenery, good tourism, nice
antiquing, wine tours, etc. We look forward to having you come fly at
SoaringNV.

Best,

Fred

[wowway news]

> wrote in message
...
> > I've also contacted Knut at Seminole about this situation to see what
> he recommends (since it'll be his planes that I fly).
>
> Thanks, all.
> John

Knut helped one pilot at Seminole last year with this same problem.
He knows exactly what to do.

Duane

[BT]

Your Canadian certificate does not say Private Glider or Commercial Glider?
I had not seen that before. We get a few of visitors each year that already
hold their US FAA Pvt Certificate based on their Foreign, (UK, AUS or
Canada) certificate.
BT

> wrote in message
...
> Hi Guys,
>
> Hopefully, you can help me get this figured out. I'm going on a trip
> to Florida next summer, and I'd like to fly a glider while I'm there
> (I kept seeing gorgeous Cu's from Mickey-Mouse-Land). I figured I
> would get checked out in a Grob 103 and then go have some fun in a
> Grob 102 or similar single-seater.
>
> According to the FAA website, I just need to send an application form
> along with a copy of my Canadian licence and medical for confirmation
> and approval, then a visit to the Rochester FSDO to get the licence.
>
> However, the Rochester FSDO says that I can't have a licence. The
> response is:
>>>
> According to our guidance, we will be unable to process your request.
>
> "Some foreign CAAs have issued pilot licenses that do not identify
> the
> grade of pilot license. In those instances, do not issue a
> U.S.pilot
> certificate. The holder of that kind of foreign pilot license does
> not
> meet ICAO standards for pilot certification."
>
> The Canadian glider certificate does not include the wording
> "private"
> or "commercial". Because of this we can not issue a US certificate
> based on your Canadian privileges.
> <<
>
> So, I said, "Well, I have a 'Private Pilot - Aeroplane' licence and a
> glider licence... can I please get a U.S. glider licence. Again,
> "No". I can get a U.S. power licence and fly N# power planes, but
> can't fly N# gliders. (I can take my Canadian registered glider to
> the U.S. and fly it on my Cdn licence, but not N# gliders).
>
> There HAS to be some simple way for me to fly solo in the U.S., but
> how?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
> John

[Solo]

On Nov 24, 11:32*am, Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:57 am, wrote:

Why would it take 4 days to complete the licence? Writing the test
should be fairly quick, and I think I can convince an instructor that
I know what I'm doing in fairly short order.

Interesting comment, which may send up a red flag in most CFI's
minds. *

Burt,

My comment was regards to the earlier posting about writing the exam
and doing some checkrides to get my U.S. certificate, it didn't seem
to me that I'd require a full course. I'm currently a licenced glider
pilot and instructor in Canada, as well as holder of a Private Pilot -
Aeroplane. I'm technically "low-time" at only 90 or so hours on
gliders, but I'm current and competently skilled (yes, there are
improvements to be done -- who can honestly say otherwise?). It
should be quickly obvious to a CFI that I know what I'm doing with a
glider -- no red flags at all.

I just can't "wrap my head around" the seeming requirement that I take
a full course to gain a licence to exercise flying privileges that I
already have in my home country. After all, the FAA would have no
problem if I brought my own ship (Kestrel 19) down to the States and
flew it... why the problem with getting even a temporary or restricted
licence to fly an N# glider? I don't wish to instruct or even fly a
passenger while there; I just want to enjoy the thermals for a few
hours.

I have no problems with doing a checkride or three to demonstrate to
the owner that I'm a competent pilot capable of safely flying and
returning the aircraft. I would expect to be checked at any club that
I visit; I'm subject to a Spring proficiency check at my own club each
year, both front and rear seat. I just don't know why I'd need a 4-
day course to demonstrate the skills that I would have been teaching
to my students in Canada the week before my trip.

John

You can start at this page from the Transport Canada web site. It does not cover glider licenses but it should be a similar process.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/personnel/USConversion.htm

I would suggest you contact your local TCCA office and talk to the licensing people. They will give you the info you require.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 24, 7:24*pm, "BT" > wrote:
> Your Canadian certificate does not say Private Glider or Commercial Glider?
> I had not seen that before. We get a few of visitors each year that already
> hold their US FAA Pvt Certificate based on their Foreign, (UK, AUS or
> Canada) certificate.
> BT

My glider certificate shows "Glider Pilot". My power certificate
reads "Private Pilot - Aeroplane". My medical is valid for both, but
for differing time periods.

I think I'll contact Transport Canada about this.

[Surfer!]

In message >, BT >
writes
>Your Canadian certificate does not say Private Glider or Commercial Glider?
>I had not seen that before. We get a few of visitors each year that already
>hold their US FAA Pvt Certificate based on their Foreign, (UK, AUS or
>Canada) certificate.
>
<Snip>

Since the commercial licence is a higher qualification I would have
thought the common sense thing is to treat it as a Private Glider
licence - but when did common sense have much to do with it?

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Bruce]

Surfer! wrote:
> In message >, BT > writes
>> Your Canadian certificate does not say Private Glider or Commercial
>> Glider?
>> I had not seen that before. We get a few of visitors each year that
>> already
>> hold their US FAA Pvt Certificate based on their Foreign, (UK, AUS or
>> Canada) certificate.
>>
> <Snip>
>
> Since the commercial licence is a higher qualification I would have
> thought the common sense thing is to treat it as a Private Glider
> licence - but when did common sense have much to do with it?
>
Sense(any kind) and aviation bureaucracy are generally strangers.

[Solo]

After searching the FAA web site, this is what I came up with:

Airmen Certification: Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/

In this case, you are interrested in FAR 61.75. (see below)


Private pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=9c07c0e31537a7491a9173b7503c7f14&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.10&idno=14

From what I understand of the US system, you get a Private Pilot Licence with a Glider endorsement.

I may be wrong but, my previous comment about contacting TCCA/Licencing still holds.

[John Smith]

BT wrote:

> Your Canadian certificate does not say Private Glider or Commercial Glider?
> I had not seen that before.

In the most countries of this world, the glider pilot license does not
say "private glider" or "commercial glider", because in most countries
of this world, there is simply no such thing. There's a glider pilot
license, and that's it. A fully ICAO compliant glider license, by the way.

So I think you should try and get some paper by the Canadian authorities
confirming that your licence is ICAO compliant.

[Rob[_5_]]

On Nov 27, 10:58*am, John Smith > wrote:
> BT wrote:
> > Your Canadian certificate does not say Private Glider or Commercial Glider?
> > I had not seen that before.
>
> In the most countries of this world, the glider pilot license does not
> say "private glider" or "commercial glider", because in most countries
> of this world, there is simply no such thing. There's a glider pilot
> license, and that's it. A fully ICAO compliant glider license, by the way..
>
> So I think you should try and get some paper by the Canadian authorities
> confirming that your licence is ICAO compliant.

Canada has recognized that we're not completely ICAO compliant in a
couple of areas, and has begun the process of fixing that at a faster-
than-expected-for-beaurocracy speed.

On 1 January, you should be able to apply at
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/personnel/changes.htm for a
new-style Canadian licence, where your GPL and PPL will be combined in
to a single document that should satisfy the FAA's inspectors. If you
didn't have the PPL, and just a GPL, you'd have to wait until 2010 to
apply for the new document.

Cheers,

Rob