Transponder problems with ATC COMS - Video

[[email protected]]

I was passenger on a $100 hamburger run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBl3rbiwpTA

Note, pilot is fresh on getting her VFR ticket and wanted to get some
ground ops experience so she asked me to come along. She also thought
it would be cool to capture her comms with ATC so I brought the
recorder along. Little did we know how much "communicating" was in
her future!

Transponder acted silly on departure and video includes both ATC and
in cockpit communications.

Note, pilot is part owner of the C172 and I was totally clueless on
the operation of her transponder. She just knew how to push the button
to the squawk code. Durn thing is so automated it automatically goes
to mode C on take off. My transponder is nothing as techie as what
was installed in her plane.

While she was flying the plane in the troubleshooting stage, I had
pushed the standby button and saw no display indication that would
show the transponder NOT sending the Mode C data. It still displayed
the FL data. I would have expected that to disappear when I set it to
standby or some indication that Mode C was shut off.

Rather then troubleshoot in an area that was congested with ATC
traffic and cause more chaos with an incorrectly reporting
transponder, we figured to recycle to see if it would clear it up.
Since it didn't clear it up, we canceled the flight following and
turned off the transponder since we had cleared KJAN airspace.

Reason for shutting it off was I was afraid we would be seen as
"unverified traffic" by center at 700 foot higher then what we really
were. Whether these decisions were "procedurally correct" or not I
don't know, but the safe outcome of the flight shows the success of
the flight.

I had asked the pilot what would she have done had she been by
herself, and she said she would have returned back to Madison which in
my eyes is as equally a good decision as mine to cancel flight
following.

I felt the pilot was incredibly composed considering the extra tasks
tossed back at her.

Certain things training sure never covers, and this would be one of
them....

For those interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru6p-5dP5D0 was
when I was her second passenger just three months ago. As you can
see, she has come a long way on handling an airplane.

[150flivver]

On Nov 24, 5:32*pm, " > wrote:
> I was passenger on a $100 hamburger run.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBl3rbiwpTA
>
> Note, pilot is fresh on getting her VFR ticket and wanted to get some
> ground ops experience so she asked me to come along. *She also thought
> it would be cool to capture her comms with ATC so I brought the
> recorder along. *Little did we know how much "communicating" was in
> her future!
>
> Transponder acted silly on departure and video includes both ATC and
> in cockpit communications.
>
> Note, pilot is part owner of the C172 and I was totally clueless on
> the operation of her transponder. She just knew how to push the button
> to the squawk code. *Durn thing is so automated it automatically goes
> to mode C on take off. *My transponder is nothing as techie as what
> was installed in her plane.
>
> While she was flying the plane in the troubleshooting stage, I had
> pushed the standby button and saw no display indication that would
> show the transponder NOT sending the Mode C data. *It still displayed
> the FL data. *I would have expected that to disappear when I set it to
> standby or some indication that Mode C was shut off.
>
> Rather then troubleshoot in an area that was congested with ATC
> traffic and cause more chaos with an incorrectly reporting
> transponder, we figured to recycle to see if it would clear it up.
> Since it didn't clear it up, we canceled the flight following and
> turned off the transponder since we had cleared KJAN airspace.
>
> Reason for shutting it off was I was afraid we would be seen as
> "unverified traffic" by center at 700 foot higher then what we really
> were. *Whether these decisions were "procedurally correct" or not I
> don't know, but the safe outcome of the flight shows the success of
> the flight.
>
> I had asked the pilot what would she have done had she been by
> herself, and she said she would have returned back to Madison which in
> my eyes is as equally a good decision as mine to cancel flight
> following.
>
> I felt the pilot was incredibly composed considering the extra tasks
> tossed back at her.
>
> Certain things training sure never covers, and this would be one of
> them....
>
> For those interestedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru6p-5dP5D0was
> when I was her second passenger just three months ago. *As you can
> see, she has come a long way on handling an airplane.

There was no reason to cancel flight following. If anything, flight
following is more important if you experience equipment malfunctions.
A transponder problem is way down on my list of "serious" problems. I
suggest she learn how to use the equipment installed in her aircraft
or at least read the manual.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 25, 9:06*am, 150flivver > wrote:

> There was no reason to cancel flight following. *If anything, flight
> following is more important if you experience equipment malfunctions.
> A transponder problem is way down on my list of "serious" problems. *I
> suggest she learn how to use the equipment installed in her aircraft
> or at least read the manual.- Hide quoted text -

Yes, we all learn from that experience :-) I am sure she will be
looking for the Xponder manual. In my plane, I have the analogue
flavor, really nothing to learn as everything is on a knob.

Reason for cancelling flight following (my rational) was that an
improperly mode C reporting Xponder was worse then no Xponder.
Doesn't do Center any good to see us at an altitude we were not at.
Since we were in a busy sector of KJAN, troubleshooting while with
them wasn't a viable option. Since we didn't know how to turn off
Mode C, I figured shut the thing down.

We just made a very decisive decision and stuck with it. Not sure I
would do anything different with the circumstances. As a passenger,
one doesn't expect to "get involved" and that is all I was.

I don't think one can get flight following without an Xponder can
you? I did learn you can get it with Mode A and the pilot gives
altitude reports along the path from the comments on the video.

You are right, Xponder is not a serious problem in our situation. We
didn't consider it a serious problem or we wouldn't have left KMBO.

It **could have been** a more serious problem had we been inside
Charlie or Bravo airspace.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 25, 10:38*am, " > wrote:

> Reason for cancelling flight following (my rational) was that an
> improperly mode C reporting Xponder was worse then no Xponder.
> Doesn't do Center any good to see us at an altitude we were not at.
> Since we were in a busy sector of KJAN, troubleshooting while with
> them wasn't a viable option. *Since we didn't know how to turn off
> Mode C, I figured shut the thing down.

You probably had no choice. ATC doesn't seem to mind you not having
mode C (I've had to go out over Los Angeles and was still given my IFR
clearance) but they really don't want incorrect readings. My guess is
that if you couldn't turn off the mode C ATC would ask you to turn off
the transponder and therefore give up the FF. Perhaps if you were in
the middle of nowhere it would be different but when you have lots of
ATC personell working the same area at different altitudes I don't
think they want to spend their day talking to each one explaining what
is going on everytime you change controllers.

-Robert

[John Clear]

In article >,
> wrote:
>
>You are right, Xponder is not a serious problem in our situation. We
>didn't consider it a serious problem or we wouldn't have left KMBO.
>
>It **could have been** a more serious problem had we been inside
>Charlie or Bravo airspace.

I've had a mode C failure inside the SFO Bravo surface area. I
was northbound along 101 for the Bay Tour at 3500ft. ATC let me
continue, but had me maintain 2000ft for my tour (normally, as long
as you stay outside the Bravo, they dont't care about your altitude).
After the tour, I was cleared through the Bravo again for the return
to PAO. The only issue was PAO tower was a bit miffed that my mode
C was out, but NorCal didn't have a problem with it across several
controllers.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[[email protected]]

On Nov 25, 2:59*pm, (John Clear) wrote:

> I've had a mode C failure inside the SFO Bravo surface area. *I
> was northbound along 101 for the Bay Tour at 3500ft. *ATC let me
> continue, but had me maintain 2000ft for my tour (normally, as long
> as you stay outside the Bravo, they dont't care about your altitude).
> After the tour, I was cleared through the Bravo again for the return
> to PAO. *The only issue was PAO tower was a bit miffed that my mode
> C was out, but NorCal didn't have a problem with it across several
> controllers.

Was it a complete failure or reporting incorrectly and they had you
stop mode C?

Just curious to see if it was reporting incorrectly and lack of
knowlege on turning mode C off as it was in my situation, do you think
they would have cleared you through Bravo?

[Morgans[_2_]]

"150flivver" > wrote

There was no reason to cancel flight following. If anything, flight
following is more important if you experience equipment malfunctions.
A transponder problem is way down on my list of "serious" problems. I
suggest she learn how to use the equipment installed in her aircraft
or at least read the manual.

**************************
I'm curious. Given that the situation was already in progress, and she
could not read the manual and learn how to better use her equipment (on the
spot) how would you have handled the situation, and without canceling flight
following?
--
Jim in NC

[BT]

ATC did ask her to stop ModeC, they did not know how to do it, so they just
turned it off.
Good thing they were not inside the Class B Mode C Veil or need to
transition it on the return flight.

BT

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 25, 10:38 am, " > wrote:

> Reason for cancelling flight following (my rational) was that an
> improperly mode C reporting Xponder was worse then no Xponder.
> Doesn't do Center any good to see us at an altitude we were not at.
> Since we were in a busy sector of KJAN, troubleshooting while with
> them wasn't a viable option. Since we didn't know how to turn off
> Mode C, I figured shut the thing down.

You probably had no choice. ATC doesn't seem to mind you not having
mode C (I've had to go out over Los Angeles and was still given my IFR
clearance) but they really don't want incorrect readings. My guess is
that if you couldn't turn off the mode C ATC would ask you to turn off
the transponder and therefore give up the FF. Perhaps if you were in
the middle of nowhere it would be different but when you have lots of
ATC personell working the same area at different altitudes I don't
think they want to spend their day talking to each one explaining what
is going on everytime you change controllers.

-Robert

[John Clear]

In article >,
> wrote:
>
>Was it a complete failure or reporting incorrectly and they had you
>stop mode C?

It was intermitently working, and reporting incorrectly, IIRC. They
just had me stop mode C.

>Just curious to see if it was reporting incorrectly and lack of
>knowlege on turning mode C off as it was in my situation, do you think
>they would have cleared you through Bravo?

Not sure what they would have done in that case. I know Norcal can
see primary targets (no transponder), so they might just have had
me turn it off at that point.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/