Ventus 2cx brake

[BravoCharlie]

Hi Pilots,

I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
works very well. I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
original performance which was adequate but not stellar.

I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
H has issued a voluntary TN. The fix is to basically throw the old
stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
French-made Beringer system. Beringer makes performance brake systems
for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. It is not cheap and probably not an
easy install.

Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? How easy is it
to install and what are the performance gains? I hate to lay out the
cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
see.

Let me know, thanks.

Bob

[bildan]

On Nov 25, 9:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
wrote:
> Hi Pilots,
>
> I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> easy install.
>
> Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> see.
>
> Let me know, thanks.
>
> Bob

Better idea. Remove the Tost wheel and brake and send them to Vintage
Brake (www.vintagebrake.com) in Sonora, California for a rebuild (~
$150). After three years, my Nimbus 2C still has powerful brakes.

[DRN]

On Nov 25, 11:58*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Nov 25, 9:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi Pilots,
>
> > I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> > works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> > fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> > original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> > I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> > H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> > stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> > French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> > for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> > easy install.
>
> > Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> > to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> > cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> > see.
>
> > Let me know, thanks.
>
> > Bob
>
> Better idea. *Remove the Tost wheel and brake and send them to Vintage
> Brake (www.vintagebrake.com) in Sonora, California for a rebuild (~
> $150). *After three years, my Nimbus 2C still has powerful brakes.

The Ventus 2cx has a Tost "adaptation" of a cleveland wheel and brake
plus a motorcycle handle-mount master cylinder. This is a disc system
and not related to the Tost mechanical hub. I'm not sure Vintage Brake
will help here.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

[DRN]

On Nov 25, 11:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
wrote:
> Hi Pilots,
>
> I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> easy install.
>
> Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> see.
>
> Let me know, thanks.
>
> Bob

Bob, I have the Beringer system in my Antares 20E.
Even at 660kg gross, the wheel brake performance
is outstanding. I can't speak to the ease of conversion
for the V2cx though, sorry.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Did you already replace the factory Bowden cable
housing and core with something robust enough, and
add an adjuster ?

[JJ Sinclair]

On Nov 25, 8:58*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Nov 25, 9:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Pilots,
>
> > I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> > works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> > fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> > original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> > I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> > H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> > stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> > French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> > for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> > easy install.
>
> > Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> > to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> > cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> > see.
>
> > Let me know, thanks.
>
> > Bob
>
> Better idea. *Remove the Tost wheel and brake and send them to Vintage
> Brake (www.vintagebrake.com) in Sonora, California for a rebuild (~
> $150). *After three years, my Nimbus 2C still has powerful brakes.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I had a scored disc from a off-field landing where sand was forced in
between the disc and pads. After I used the brakes a couple of times
the sand gouged up both the disc and pads, then the brakes didn't work
as well. I also found that when pulling hard on the spoiler handle, my
spoilers were hitting their stops (full open stop) and this bacame the
limiting factor in brake application. A couple of turns on the
pushrod end that fed the master cylinder, fixed the problem. Make sure
your brake is full on, well before the spoilers hit their stops (if
your brake is on the spoiler handle).
Roger on the Vintage Brake guys,
JJ
JJ

[BravoCharlie]

On Nov 26, 6:55*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> On Nov 25, 8:58*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 25, 9:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
> > wrote:
>
> > > Hi Pilots,
>
> > > I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> > > works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> > > fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> > > original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> > > I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> > > H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> > > stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> > > French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> > > for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> > > easy install.
>
> > > Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> > > to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> > > cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> > > see.
>
> > > Let me know, thanks.
>
> > > Bob
>
> > Better idea. *Remove the Tost wheel and brake and send them to Vintage
> > Brake (www.vintagebrake.com) in Sonora, California for a rebuild (~
> > $150). *After three years, my Nimbus 2C still has powerful brakes.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> *I had a scored disc from a off-field landing where sand was forced in
> between the disc and pads. After I used the brakes a couple of times
> the sand gouged up both the disc and pads, then the brakes didn't work
> as well. I also found that when pulling hard on the spoiler handle, my
> spoilers were hitting their stops (full open stop) and this bacame the
> limiting factor in brake application. *A couple of turns on the
> pushrod end that fed the master cylinder, fixed the problem. Make sure
> your brake is full on, well before the spoilers hit their stops (if
> your brake is on the spoiler handle).
> Roger on the Vintage Brake guys,
> JJ
> JJ

As Dave noted my actuator is a lever on the stick which is wimpy
compared to the spoiler handle. Dave what do you suggest for a
replacement Bowden cable? This one looks like a bicycle system and
not even as beefy as a motorcycle version.

Mine is adjusted fine but I might be losing some effectiveness with
cable stretch and/or housing give. The adjuster is just the cable
clamp nut. I have also heard the suggestion to replace the plastic
brake fluid line with braided stainless. Any thoughts about that?

[DRN]

On Nov 26, 10:54*am, BravoCharlie >
wrote:
> On Nov 26, 6:55*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 25, 8:58*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 25, 9:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Hi Pilots,
>
> > > > I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> > > > works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> > > > fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> > > > original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> > > > I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> > > > H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> > > > stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> > > > French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> > > > for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> > > > easy install.
>
> > > > Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> > > > to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> > > > cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> > > > see.
>
> > > > Let me know, thanks.
>
> > > > Bob
>
> > > Better idea. *Remove the Tost wheel and brake and send them to Vintage
> > > Brake (www.vintagebrake.com) in Sonora, California for a rebuild (~
> > > $150). *After three years, my Nimbus 2C still has powerful brakes.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > *I had a scored disc from a off-field landing where sand was forced in
> > between the disc and pads. After I used the brakes a couple of times
> > the sand gouged up both the disc and pads, then the brakes didn't work
> > as well. I also found that when pulling hard on the spoiler handle, my
> > spoilers were hitting their stops (full open stop) and this bacame the
> > limiting factor in brake application. *A couple of turns on the
> > pushrod end that fed the master cylinder, fixed the problem. Make sure
> > your brake is full on, well before the spoilers hit their stops (if
> > your brake is on the spoiler handle).
> > Roger on the Vintage Brake guys,
> > JJ
> > JJ
>
> As Dave noted my actuator is a lever on the stick which is wimpy
> compared to the spoiler handle. *Dave what do you suggest for a
> replacement Bowden cable? *This one looks like a bicycle system and
> not even as beefy as a motorcycle version.
>
> Mine is adjusted fine but I might be losing some effectiveness with
> cable stretch and/or housing give. *The adjuster is just the cable
> clamp nut. *I have also heard the suggestion to replace the plastic
> brake fluid line with braided stainless. *Any thoughts about that?

Here's a note Tom sent me after the Great Weedoni improved
mine (this is years ago prior I upgraded to Antares). I don't
have the specifics on the cable and housing, but almost anything is
an improvement over the bicycle cable original. Pay attention
to the routing: no corners, and no obstruction of controls !!

http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm

Hope this helps !
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Give a call if you want to discuss...

[BravoCharlie]

On Nov 26, 9:03*am, DRN > wrote:
> On Nov 26, 10:54*am, BravoCharlie >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 26, 6:55*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 25, 8:58*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 25, 9:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > Hi Pilots,
>
> > > > > I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> > > > > works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> > > > > fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> > > > > original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> > > > > I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> > > > > H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> > > > > stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> > > > > French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> > > > > for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> > > > > easy install.
>
> > > > > Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> > > > > to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> > > > > cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> > > > > see.
>
> > > > > Let me know, thanks.
>
> > > > > Bob
>
> > > > Better idea. *Remove the Tost wheel and brake and send them to Vintage
> > > > Brake (www.vintagebrake.com) in Sonora, California for a rebuild (~
> > > > $150). *After three years, my Nimbus 2C still has powerful brakes..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > *I had a scored disc from a off-field landing where sand was forced in
> > > between the disc and pads. After I used the brakes a couple of times
> > > the sand gouged up both the disc and pads, then the brakes didn't work
> > > as well. I also found that when pulling hard on the spoiler handle, my
> > > spoilers were hitting their stops (full open stop) and this bacame the
> > > limiting factor in brake application. *A couple of turns on the
> > > pushrod end that fed the master cylinder, fixed the problem. Make sure
> > > your brake is full on, well before the spoilers hit their stops (if
> > > your brake is on the spoiler handle).
> > > Roger on the Vintage Brake guys,
> > > JJ
> > > JJ
>
> > As Dave noted my actuator is a lever on the stick which is wimpy
> > compared to the spoiler handle. *Dave what do you suggest for a
> > replacement Bowden cable? *This one looks like a bicycle system and
> > not even as beefy as a motorcycle version.
>
> > Mine is adjusted fine but I might be losing some effectiveness with
> > cable stretch and/or housing give. *The adjuster is just the cable
> > clamp nut. *I have also heard the suggestion to replace the plastic
> > brake fluid line with braided stainless. *Any thoughts about that?
>
> Here's a note Tom sent me after the Great Weedoni improved
> mine (this is years ago prior I upgraded to Antares). I don't
> have the specifics on the cable and housing, but almost anything is
> an improvement over the bicycle cable original. Pay attention
> to the routing: no corners, and no obstruction of controls !!
>
> http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
>
> Hope this helps !
> Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
> PS: Give a call if you want to discuss...

Thanks I will try a few more tweaks before I s-can the whole works.

[DRN]

On Nov 26, 11:12*am, BravoCharlie >
wrote:
> On Nov 26, 9:03*am, DRN > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 26, 10:54*am, BravoCharlie >
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 26, 6:55*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 25, 8:58*pm, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 25, 9:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Hi Pilots,
>
> > > > > > I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> > > > > > works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> > > > > > fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> > > > > > original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> > > > > > I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> > > > > > H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> > > > > > stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> > > > > > French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> > > > > > for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> > > > > > easy install.
>
> > > > > > Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> > > > > > to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> > > > > > cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> > > > > > see.
>
> > > > > > Let me know, thanks.
>
> > > > > > Bob
>
> > > > > Better idea. *Remove the Tost wheel and brake and send them to Vintage
> > > > > Brake (www.vintagebrake.com) in Sonora, California for a rebuild (~
> > > > > $150). *After three years, my Nimbus 2C still has powerful brakes.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > *I had a scored disc from a off-field landing where sand was forced in
> > > > between the disc and pads. After I used the brakes a couple of times
> > > > the sand gouged up both the disc and pads, then the brakes didn't work
> > > > as well. I also found that when pulling hard on the spoiler handle, my
> > > > spoilers were hitting their stops (full open stop) and this bacame the
> > > > limiting factor in brake application. *A couple of turns on the
> > > > pushrod end that fed the master cylinder, fixed the problem. Make sure
> > > > your brake is full on, well before the spoilers hit their stops (if
> > > > your brake is on the spoiler handle).
> > > > Roger on the Vintage Brake guys,
> > > > JJ
> > > > JJ
>
> > > As Dave noted my actuator is a lever on the stick which is wimpy
> > > compared to the spoiler handle. *Dave what do you suggest for a
> > > replacement Bowden cable? *This one looks like a bicycle system and
> > > not even as beefy as a motorcycle version.
>
> > > Mine is adjusted fine but I might be losing some effectiveness with
> > > cable stretch and/or housing give. *The adjuster is just the cable
> > > clamp nut. *I have also heard the suggestion to replace the plastic
> > > brake fluid line with braided stainless. *Any thoughts about that?
>
> > Here's a note Tom sent me after the Great Weedoni improved
> > mine (this is years ago prior I upgraded to Antares). I don't
> > have the specifics on the cable and housing, but almost anything is
> > an improvement over the bicycle cable original. Pay attention
> > to the routing: no corners, and no obstruction of controls !!
>
> >http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
>
> > Hope this helps !
> > Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
> > PS: Give a call if you want to discuss...
>
> Thanks I will try a few more tweaks before I s-can the whole works.

Let me know if you want more info on the Beringer system
and feel free to call with any questions about either...

Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 26, 9:03*am, DRN > wrote:
>
> http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
>

Man that's ugly!

Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
master cylinder with a bicycle cable?

Andy

[DRN]

On Nov 26, 11:32*am, Andy > wrote:
> >http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
>
> Man that's ugly!
>
> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
>
> Andy

That is a very good question.

Antares uses a direct mechanical connection from spoiler
pushrod to master-cylinder actuation lever, no Bowden cable.

A Bowden cable is a SPRING, and bicycle-grade is really
silly in these applications (especially 8 foot long with a
Tost "wheel brake").

I believe SH has upgraded new production to use Beringer parts;
hopefully they have stopped doing this on the actuation side...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

DRN wrote:
> On Nov 26, 11:32 am, Andy > wrote:
>>> http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
>> Man that's ugly!
>>
>> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
>> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
>>
>> Andy
>
> That is a very good question.
>
> Antares uses a direct mechanical connection from spoiler
> pushrod to master-cylinder actuation lever, no Bowden cable.
>
> A Bowden cable is a SPRING, and bicycle-grade is really
> silly in these applications (especially 8 foot long with a
> Tost "wheel brake").
>
> I believe SH has upgraded new production to use Beringer parts;
> hopefully they have stopped doing this on the actuation side...
>
> See ya, Dave "YO electric"


No, still using the bicycle cable with the Beringer system. See the
installation instructions here:

http://schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/349-33-2444.pdf

[DRN]

On Nov 26, 12:27*pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> DRN wrote:
> > On Nov 26, 11:32 am, Andy > wrote:
> >>>http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
> >> Man that's ugly!
>
> >> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
> >> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
>
> >> Andy
>
> > That is a very good question.
>
> > Antares uses a direct mechanical connection from spoiler
> > pushrod to master-cylinder actuation lever, no Bowden cable.
>
> > A Bowden cable is a SPRING, and bicycle-grade is really
> > silly in these applications (especially 8 foot long with a
> > Tost "wheel brake").
>
> > I believe SH has upgraded new production to use Beringer parts;
> > hopefully they have stopped doing this on the actuation side...
>
> > See ya, Dave "YO electric"
>
> No, still using the bicycle cable with the Beringer system. *See the
> installation instructions here:
>
> http://schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/349-33-2444.pdf

Aaarggg - It does work adequately with a beefier Bowden cable...

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 26, 10:27*am, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> DRN wrote:
> > On Nov 26, 11:32 am, Andy > wrote:
> >>>http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
> >> Man that's ugly!
>
> >> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
> >> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
>
> >> Andy
>
> > That is a very good question.
>
> > Antares uses a direct mechanical connection from spoiler
> > pushrod to master-cylinder actuation lever, no Bowden cable.
>
> > A Bowden cable is a SPRING, and bicycle-grade is really
> > silly in these applications (especially 8 foot long with a
> > Tost "wheel brake").
>
> > I believe SH has upgraded new production to use Beringer parts;
> > hopefully they have stopped doing this on the actuation side...
>
> > See ya, Dave "YO electric"
>
> No, still using the bicycle cable with the Beringer system. *See the
> installation instructions here:
>
> http://schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/349-33-2444.pdf- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

DRN wrote:
> On Nov 26, 12:27 pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
>> DRN wrote:
>>> On Nov 26, 11:32 am, Andy > wrote:
>>>>> http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
>>>> Man that's ugly!
>>>> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
>>>> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
>>>> Andy
>>> That is a very good question.
>>> Antares uses a direct mechanical connection from spoiler
>>> pushrod to master-cylinder actuation lever, no Bowden cable.
>>> A Bowden cable is a SPRING, and bicycle-grade is really
>>> silly in these applications (especially 8 foot long with a
>>> Tost "wheel brake").
>>> I believe SH has upgraded new production to use Beringer parts;
>>> hopefully they have stopped doing this on the actuation side...
>>> See ya, Dave "YO electric"
>> No, still using the bicycle cable with the Beringer system. See the
>> installation instructions here:
>>
>> http://schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/349-33-2444.pdf
>
> Aaarggg - It does work adequately with a beefier Bowden cable...


I upgraded to a disc brake on my 20-year-old Discus. I have the very
same issues there, and haven't had any good ideas about how to upgrade
to a beefier Bowden cable (motorcycle cable?) that still will work with
the fittings designed for the bicycle cable. Also, I have wondered how
a stiffer cable would affect the feel at the stick -- seems it would be
stiffer in pitch.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 26, 10:27*am, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> No, still using the bicycle cable with the Beringer system. *See the
> installation instructions here:
>
> http://schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/349-33-2444.pdf- Hide quoted text -
>


Not only cable but clamp screw type cable nipples. Makes me
appreciate even more the direct actuated Cleveland system used by
Schleicher.

Andy

[DRN]

On Nov 26, 12:42*pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> I upgraded to a disc brake on my 20-year-old Discus. *I have the very
> same issues there, and haven't had any good ideas about how to upgrade
> to a beefier Bowden cable (motorcycle cable?) that still will work with
> the fittings designed for the bicycle cable. *

You do need to change a few fittings.

> Also, I have wondered how
> a stiffer cable would affect the feel at the stick -- seems it would be
> stiffer in pitch.

No change if the cable is routed carefully...
If you feel any change don't fly it !

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 26, 8:32*am, Andy > wrote:

> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?

When I was building a brake system for the center stick controls of my
HP-18, I decided I wanted the stick to have as little inertia, and as
little mass aft of the ptich pivot, as practical. Hence my decision to
use a mountain bike brake lever on the stick driving a fixed master
cylinder through a low-friction sheathed cable. That's why this
sailplane developer developed such a system.

My caution was driven by an earlier accident involving a late
acquaintenance whose sailplane unzipped in turbulence and distributed
parts pretty widely. That ship's control stick had been modified in a
way that some thought contributed to undamped PIO.

Thanks, Bob K.

[DRN]

On Nov 26, 1:05*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Nov 26, 8:32*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
> > master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
>
> When I was building a brake system for the center stick controls of my
> HP-18, I decided I wanted the stick to have as little inertia, and as
> little mass aft of the ptich pivot, as practical. Hence my decision to
> use a mountain bike brake lever on the stick driving a fixed master
> cylinder through a low-friction sheathed cable. That's why this
> sailplane developer developed such a system.
>
> My caution was driven by an earlier accident involving a late
> acquaintenance whose sailplane unzipped in turbulence and distributed
> parts pretty widely. That ship's control stick had been modified in a
> way that some thought contributed to undamped PIO.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Even better is to use a direct linkage from the spoiler
and keep this buggery off the stick completely !
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: I know, doesn't work on the HP-18, no spoilers;
my whale has it on the stick...

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 26, 7:54*am, BravoCharlie >
wrote:
> I have also heard the suggestion to replace the plastic
> brake fluid line with braided stainless. *Any thoughts about that?-

I found that the plastic brake line works perfectly well with very
little stretch. I'm using Nylo-Seal NSR 1/8" OD, .026" wall stuff so
the internal volume is as low as possible and the hoop and
longitudinal stresses are reasonable. I originally expected that the
small internal cross-section would make the flow rate low enough that
the brakes would be slow to apply and slow to release, but that has
not been the case. It seems that disk brakes operate with such little
displacement that even .004in^2 of cross-section on a 4-foot tube
provides adequate flow.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Bruce]

I upgraded the cable on my 38 year old Std Cirrus.
My replacement is the rear brake cable from a Honda motorcycle. Had to
cut the fitting off one end and fit a ferrule after threading through
the whole system. Reward is a noticeable improvement. i.e. there is some
retardation from the ridiculous Tost Lilliput wheel. Generally good for
two good stops between adjustments...

Greg Arnold wrote:
> DRN wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 12:27 pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
>>> DRN wrote:
>>>> On Nov 26, 11:32 am, Andy > wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
>>>>> Man that's ugly!
>>>>> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
>>>>> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
>>>>> Andy
>>>> That is a very good question.
>>>> Antares uses a direct mechanical connection from spoiler
>>>> pushrod to master-cylinder actuation lever, no Bowden cable.
>>>> A Bowden cable is a SPRING, and bicycle-grade is really
>>>> silly in these applications (especially 8 foot long with a
>>>> Tost "wheel brake").
>>>> I believe SH has upgraded new production to use Beringer parts;
>>>> hopefully they have stopped doing this on the actuation side...
>>>> See ya, Dave "YO electric"
>>> No, still using the bicycle cable with the Beringer system. See the
>>> installation instructions here:
>>>
>>> http://schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/349-33-2444.pdf
>>
>> Aaarggg - It does work adequately with a beefier Bowden cable...
>
>
> I upgraded to a disc brake on my 20-year-old Discus. I have the very
> same issues there, and haven't had any good ideas about how to upgrade
> to a beefier Bowden cable (motorcycle cable?) that still will work with
> the fittings designed for the bicycle cable. Also, I have wondered how
> a stiffer cable would affect the feel at the stick -- seems it would be
> stiffer in pitch.
>

[vontresc]

On Nov 26, 1:28*pm, Bruce > wrote:
> I upgraded the cable on my 38 year old Std Cirrus.
> My replacement is the rear brake cable from a Honda motorcycle. Had to
> cut the fitting off one end and fit a ferrule after threading through
> the whole system. Reward is a noticeable improvement. i.e. there is some
> retardation from the ridiculous Tost Lilliput wheel. Generally good for
> two good stops between adjustments...
>
>
>
> Greg Arnold wrote:
> > DRN wrote:
> >> On Nov 26, 12:27 pm, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> >>> DRN wrote:
> >>>> On Nov 26, 11:32 am, Andy > wrote:
> >>>>>>http://www.nadler.com/public/ventus2cm/V2%20wheelbrake%20cable.htm
> >>>>> Man that's ugly!
> >>>>> Why would anyone ruin a great hydraulic disc brake by actuating the
> >>>>> master cylinder with a bicycle cable?
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>> That is a very good question.
> >>>> Antares uses a direct mechanical connection from spoiler
> >>>> pushrod to master-cylinder actuation lever, no Bowden cable.
> >>>> A Bowden cable is a SPRING, and bicycle-grade is really
> >>>> silly in these applications (especially 8 foot long with a
> >>>> Tost "wheel brake").
> >>>> I believe SH has upgraded new production to use Beringer parts;
> >>>> hopefully they have stopped doing this on the actuation side...
> >>>> See ya, Dave "YO electric"
> >>> No, still using the bicycle cable with the Beringer system. *See the
> >>> installation instructions here:
>
> >>>http://schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/349-33-2444.pdf
>
> >> Aaarggg - It does work adequately with a beefier Bowden cable...
>
> > I upgraded to a disc brake on my 20-year-old Discus. *I have the very
> > same issues there, and haven't had any good ideas about how to upgrade
> > to a beefier Bowden cable (motorcycle cable?) that still will work with
> > the fittings designed for the bicycle cable. *Also, I have wondered how
> > a stiffer cable would affect the feel at the stick -- seems it would be
> > stiffer in pitch.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Heheh all this talk about overly complex brakes makes me happy to have
the flintstone brakes on my Ka-6. Simple piece of sheetmetal that gets
pulled over the wheel, and It works. I haven't landed out in it yet,
but the combo of full top and bottom surface brakes, plus the wheel
brake make it stop in a pretty small area.

Pete

[Eric Greenwell]

vontresc wrote:

>
> Heheh all this talk about overly complex brakes makes me happy to have
> the flintstone brakes on my Ka-6. Simple piece of sheetmetal that gets
> pulled over the wheel, and It works. I haven't landed out in it yet,
> but the combo of full top and bottom surface brakes, plus the wheel
> brake make it stop in a pretty small area.

Be *really* careful landing on a wet or damp runway. Water is a
wonderful lubricant between tire tread and sheet metal. Your "pretty
small area" will slide by in a flash! Been there, did that, fortunately
stopped short of the fence near the end of the runway. When it was dry,
it did an excellent job.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 26, 11:05*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> When I was building a brake system for the center stick controls of my
> HP-18, I decided I wanted the stick to have as little inertia, and as
> little mass aft of the ptich pivot, as practical. Hence my decision to
> use a mountain bike brake lever on the stick driving a fixed master
> cylinder through a low-friction sheathed cable. That's why this
> sailplane developer developed such a system.

Did you consider using a mountain bike hydraulic brake lever? Perhaps
they were not available then. Is the mass of the lever even
significant compared to the mass of the pilot's hand and arm that are
also usually, and certainly during a PIO, attached to the stick?

Andy

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 26, 3:00*pm, Andy > wrote:

> Did you consider using a mountain bike hydraulic brake lever? *Perhaps
> they were not available then.

Yes, I tested a promising one at the time. As little displacement as
my Cleveland caliper requires under typical conditions, it still took
a couple pumps of the lever before it pressured up.

> Is the mass of the lever even significant compared to the mass of the
> pilot's hand and arm that are also usually, and certainly during a
> PIO, *attached to the stick?

Not known. I do know that the available hydraulic master cylinders
with attached reservoir are around a pound or so. I also know that the
human hand and arm has a lot of inherent damping, and also that only
about half the mass of the forearm counts as sprung weight. In this
case at least I decided to develop conservatively and move on.

Thanks, Bob K.

[JJ Sinclair]

On Nov 25, 8:33*pm, BravoCharlie >
wrote:
> Hi Pilots,
>
> I have a V2cxT that has the standard S-H disc brake that no longer
> works very well. *I have been through the obvious fixes; pads, new
> fluid, bleed, etc. and haven't been able to bring it back up to
> original performance which was adequate but not stellar.
>
> I know a number of pilots have complained about this world-wide and S-
> H has issued a voluntary TN. *The fix is to basically throw the old
> stuff away and replace everything including wheel and tire with the
> French-made Beringer system. *Beringer makes performance brake systems
> for motorcycles, aircraft, etc. *It is not cheap and probably not an
> easy install.
>
> Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? *How easy is it
> to install and what are the performance gains? *I hate to lay out the
> cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
> see.
>
> Let me know, thanks.
>
> Bob

I believe I have seen a spoiler actuated brake system on a Nimbus 3,
maybe SH could provide the parts to convert yours. You can get some
real muscle into the system when the wheel brake is actuated by the
spoiler handle.
JJ

[Eric Greenwell]

JJ Sinclair wrote:

>> Does any one have first hand knowledge about this fix? How easy is it
>> to install and what are the performance gains? I hate to lay out the
>> cash without an understanding of how much of an improvement I will
>> see.
>>
>> Let me know, thanks.
>>
>> Bob
>
> I believe I have seen a spoiler actuated brake system on a Nimbus 3,
> maybe SH could provide the parts to convert yours. You can get some
> real muscle into the system when the wheel brake is actuated by the
> spoiler handle.

Is there an operational reason for putting the brake on the stick
instead of the spoiler? As opposed to, say, cost reasons?

I've always preferred the wheel brake on the spoiler handle, even though
it sometimes confused people when they saw the spoilers open as the
towplane began to take up slack.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

Eric Greenwell wrote:

>
> Is there an operational reason for putting the brake on the stick
> instead of the spoiler? As opposed to, say, cost reasons?
>
> I've always preferred the wheel brake on the spoiler handle, even though
> it sometimes confused people when they saw the spoilers open as the
> towplane began to take up slack.
>


I have had gliders that did it both ways, and it seems to me that it is
easier to modulate the brake in small amounts with your hand than with
your entire arm. But that could just be me.

I notice that the new 304S still has the bicycle brake lever, but has
moved it to the spoiler handle. It would seem that there are advantages
to getting it off the stick, including the possibility of having the
lever directly act on the hydraulic cylinder. I wonder if the 304S does
it that way, or still uses a bicycle cable going to the cylinder.

[Eric Greenwell]

Greg Arnold wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>>
>> Is there an operational reason for putting the brake on the stick
>> instead of the spoiler? As opposed to, say, cost reasons?
>>
>> I've always preferred the wheel brake on the spoiler handle, even
>> though it sometimes confused people when they saw the spoilers open as
>> the towplane began to take up slack.
>>
>
>
> I have had gliders that did it both ways, and it seems to me that it is
> easier to modulate the brake in small amounts with your hand than with
> your entire arm. But that could just be me.

Perhaps it's the glider. I found both my ASW 20 C and my ASH 26 E very
easy to modulate. The wheel brake takes more force than holding full
spoiler at landing or takeoff speed, so it's easy to know when I am
applying it. It's easier for me to modulate the total braking effort
with one arm (brake on spoilers), instead left arm (spoilers) and right
hand (wheel brake).

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[bildan]

On Nov 27, 12:26*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:

> Is there an operational reason for putting the brake on the stick
> instead of the spoiler? As opposed to, say, cost reasons?

Possibly. If it is necessary to move flaps to a negative setting
right after touchdown, that means releasing the spoiler handle in
order to move the flap handle. If the brake is on the spoiler handle,
that also means that the wheel brake must be released. If the brake
handle is on the stick, the wheel brake can be held on with the
bicycle brake grip while the flap handle is moved.

I favor both as with the Duo Discus or heel brake as with the LS-3.

I use the wheel brake stick grip by shifting my grip such that
rearward force on the brake handle also pulls the stick back to help
prevent a nose over and keep maximum down force on the tailwheel to
prevent a ground loop. My left hand is then free to shift the flaps
to max negative and return to the air brake.

[DRN]

On Nov 27, 2:26*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Is there an operational reason for putting the brake on the stick
> instead of the spoiler? As opposed to, say, cost reasons?

Several reasons:

(1) No spoilers (like the HP-18 or my whale mentioned above)
(2) Some people hate messing with spoilers to prevent rope
overrun at hookup, because of operational considerations
or because...
(3) Many gliders pull down flaps with spoiler activation, so
if you pull spoilers back to use brakes now you need to
push flaps back up (take-off and landing)

I think that's why many gliders have both...
Why it never works ? A long rant plus discussion above...

Hope that helps,
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?

At 22:12 27 November 2008, DRN wrote:
>On Nov 27, 2:26=A0pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Is there an operational reason for putting the brake on the stick
>> instead of the spoiler? As opposed to, say, cost reasons?
>
>Several reasons:
>
>(1) No spoilers (like the HP-18 or my whale mentioned above)
>(2) Some people hate messing with spoilers to prevent rope
> overrun at hookup, because of operational considerations
> or because...
>(3) Many gliders pull down flaps with spoiler activation, so
> if you pull spoilers back to use brakes now you need to
> push flaps back up (take-off and landing)
>
>I think that's why many gliders have both...
>Why it never works ? A long rant plus discussion above...
>
>Hope that helps,
>See ya, Dave "YO electric"
>

[DRN]

On Nov 27, 7:00*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?

IIRC, LS, DG, Lange...

[Tim Taylor]

On Nov 27, 5:00*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?
>
Ventus A/B and many Glasflügel ships.

[Eric Greenwell]

DRN wrote:
> On Nov 27, 7:00 pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>> Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?
>
> IIRC, LS, DG, Lange...

Those are just brand names, eh? The LS-8 and the DG-400 don't add flaps!

I believe the Nimbus 4 adds flaps with spoiler acutuation.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[TonyV]

>>> Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?
>>
>> IIRC, LS, DG, Lange...
>
> Those are just brand names, eh? The LS-8 and the DG-400 don't add flaps!


My LS6-b does.

Tony V.

[Bruce]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> DRN wrote:
>> On Nov 27, 7:00 pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>>> Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?
>>
>> IIRC, LS, DG, Lange...
>
> Those are just brand names, eh? The LS-8 and the DG-400 don't add flaps!
>
> I believe the Nimbus 4 adds flaps with spoiler acutuation.
>
DuoDiscus x and later have interlinked airbrake and landing flap.

[Markus Gayda]

Tim Taylor schrieb:
> On Nov 27, 5:00 pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>> Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?
>>
> Ventus A/B and many Glasflügel ships.
>

Schempp-Hirth:
- Mini-Nimbus
- Nimbus 3DM

CU
Markus

[DRN]

On Nov 27, 8:48*pm, DRN > wrote:
> On Nov 27, 7:00*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>
> > Which gliders add flaps when spoilers are activated?
>
> IIRC, LS, DG, Lange...

I should have been a bit more precise.
Some readers are not confused by models that have no flaps, but... ;-)
The issue is when the SPOILER CONTROL moves the FLAP CONTROL.

There's no problem with putting the wheel-brake on the spoiler
with ships like the Ventus A/B, as the inboard flaps are pushed
down by the trailing-edge spoilers with-out moving the flap
control. If you select negative flaps for take-off or landing,
then pull full spoiler, the flap CONTROL is unaffected and
the outer control surfaces remain reflexed up as you
pull the spoiler handle.

The SPOILER CONTROL moves the FLAP CONTROL back
in many FLAPPED gliders, for example recent FLAPPED
gliders from LS, Lange, and I believe DG. This creates
a bit of an operational issue with wheel-brake on spoilers
only.

In Antares, it is not necessary to use negative flap for
powered takeoff or for landing roll-out as roll control
is extremely good at low speeds (and in general). It
does create a nuisance if you want to use negative
flap for aerotow takeoff, only necessary with a wing-
runner. For Antares my preference is no wing runner
even for aerotow, which may seem odd but works
extremely well. Even with full, water, its no problem.

Hope that's a bit more clear !
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"