Survival Rifle II

[[email protected]]

To All:

The following is taken from back-channel communications; folks who had
a question but didn't want to ask it publicly.

'I tend to agree with those who believe a .22 pistol and a variety of
bullet types would be a more practical survival weapon.'
And I would tend to agree with you. Ideally, it would be one of those
9-shot revolvers that were popular in the 1950's. And you're right
about the loads, too. .22 Long Rifle Hollow Point, and .22 cal. shot-
shells are available. If you could find one of the long-barreled
pistols, and rig a skeleton stock to it, you could be reasonably sure
of taking deer-sized game, assuming you could put a .22 Hollow Point
into the animal's kill-zone.

But you're talking some serious money here. My main reason for
advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
'Rusty' -- I'd acquired last winter, just before I was diagnosed with
cancer. I hadn't done anything with it, other than to drop it in a
coffee can filled with used motor oil. When I bought it (for $2.50)
the barrel was blocked and it could not be cocked & fired. But after
a five month soak in old motor oil I was able to clear the barrel and
cock the thing. It needs to be taken apart and cleaned but right now
it represents a two and a half pound BALLAST MASS... something I could
build right into the airframe.

The only advantage a black powder pistol might have over a .22 is that
a .44 has the POTENTIAL to deliver more energy, assuming the cap &
powder was still good after being bolted to an airplane for heaven
knows how long.

'How much does such a pistol cost?'
Purchased new, a well-made black-powder revolver can cost hundreds of
dollars. But that's not the kind of pistol I've been talking about.
The pistol I've been talking about is something from a garage sale,
probably rusty and may not even work. The price of such a pistol will
be from $1 to $5.

'My (local expert) says the Colt is not as good as the Remington.'
He's right. You want to TRY and buy a pistol that has a top-strap
design. But don't ignore whatever is available, which will probably
be an Italian replica of an early Colt, which does not have the top-
strap.

'If the purpose is survival I should think you would want to carry the
pistol loaded. But I understand you can't do that (ie, leave a black
powder weapon loaded).'
That's true. Black powder is hygroscopic, meaning it will absorb
water... typically moisture from the air. So don't let that happen.
Wrap the pistol AND a desiccant pack in several layers of plastic,
followed by several layers of heavy-weight aluminum foil. Do not use
tape, just crumple the foil to make it hold. (The foil is a major
part of your survival gear.)

The black powder you carry for reloading must receive the same kind of
vapor-barrier treatment. That is, a desiccant pack next to the powder
then the whole thing sealed up in several plastic baggies, followed by
two or three layers of HEAVY aluminum foil.

There are some synthetic black powders, and black powder pellets, that
are NOT hygroscopic... or at least, less hygroscopic than the Real
Stuff. Some of these are so expensive that they are beyond the range
of my Flying On The Cheap philosophy.

'A black powder pistol, such as you've proposed, appears to be an
awkward load. Would you include a holster as part of your survival
pistol kit?
No holster. You are correct in that WHATEVER pistol you decide to
use, a holster of some kind would improve its practicality. But that
assumes you intend to leave the site of the downed aircraft and THAT
is never a good idea.

If you fly into a rock the odds are, you won't be in condition to do
any traveling. If you're lucky enough to be able to select where the
bird goes down, there's a high probability you'll suffer some
injuries, in which case you will want to stay at or close to the crash
site. Even if you make a good landing ( that is, one you can walk
away from ) the odds of your being rescued are several orders of
magnitude better if you stay with the downed airplane.

Common practice with cap & ball revolvers that do NOT have a safety
notch is to load only five rounds, reserving the sixth chamber for
resting the hammer upon. Another common practice is to provide an
anchoring point for a lanyard so that the pistol can never be lost or
forgotten.

To me, a 'shooting pouch' containing your caps, powder and bullets, is
far more important than a holster. Indeed, a simple cloth pouch large
enough to hold the pistol and its accouterments is a virtual
necessity. Such a pouch can serve as a 'holster' of sorts. Such a
pouch also lends itself to the task of building your survival weapon
into the airframe.

-R.S.Hoover

[Anthony W]

wrote:
> To All:
>
> The following is taken from back-channel communications; folks who had
> a question but didn't want to ask it publicly.
>
> 'I tend to agree with those who believe a .22 pistol and a variety of
> bullet types would be a more practical survival weapon.'
> And I would tend to agree with you. Ideally, it would be one of those
> 9-shot revolvers that were popular in the 1950's. And you're right
> about the loads, too. .22 Long Rifle Hollow Point, and .22 cal. shot-
> shells are available. If you could find one of the long-barreled
> pistols, and rig a skeleton stock to it, you could be reasonably sure
> of taking deer-sized game, assuming you could put a .22 Hollow Point
> into the animal's kill-zone.
>
> But you're talking some serious money here. My main reason for
> advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
> 'Rusty' -- I'd acquired last winter, just before I was diagnosed with
> cancer. I hadn't done anything with it, other than to drop it in a
> coffee can filled with used motor oil. When I bought it (for $2.50)
> the barrel was blocked and it could not be cocked & fired. But after
> a five month soak in old motor oil I was able to clear the barrel and
> cock the thing. It needs to be taken apart and cleaned but right now
> it represents a two and a half pound BALLAST MASS... something I could
> build right into the airframe.
>
> The only advantage a black powder pistol might have over a .22 is that
> a .44 has the POTENTIAL to deliver more energy, assuming the cap &
> powder was still good after being bolted to an airplane for heaven
> knows how long.
>
> 'How much does such a pistol cost?'
> Purchased new, a well-made black-powder revolver can cost hundreds of
> dollars. But that's not the kind of pistol I've been talking about.
> The pistol I've been talking about is something from a garage sale,
> probably rusty and may not even work. The price of such a pistol will
> be from $1 to $5.
>
> 'My (local expert) says the Colt is not as good as the Remington.'
> He's right. You want to TRY and buy a pistol that has a top-strap
> design. But don't ignore whatever is available, which will probably
> be an Italian replica of an early Colt, which does not have the top-
> strap.
>
> 'If the purpose is survival I should think you would want to carry the
> pistol loaded. But I understand you can't do that (ie, leave a black
> powder weapon loaded).'
> That's true. Black powder is hygroscopic, meaning it will absorb
> water... typically moisture from the air. So don't let that happen.
> Wrap the pistol AND a desiccant pack in several layers of plastic,
> followed by several layers of heavy-weight aluminum foil. Do not use
> tape, just crumple the foil to make it hold. (The foil is a major
> part of your survival gear.)
>
> The black powder you carry for reloading must receive the same kind of
> vapor-barrier treatment. That is, a desiccant pack next to the powder
> then the whole thing sealed up in several plastic baggies, followed by
> two or three layers of HEAVY aluminum foil.
>
> There are some synthetic black powders, and black powder pellets, that
> are NOT hygroscopic... or at least, less hygroscopic than the Real
> Stuff. Some of these are so expensive that they are beyond the range
> of my Flying On The Cheap philosophy.
>
> 'A black powder pistol, such as you've proposed, appears to be an
> awkward load. Would you include a holster as part of your survival
> pistol kit?
> No holster. You are correct in that WHATEVER pistol you decide to
> use, a holster of some kind would improve its practicality. But that
> assumes you intend to leave the site of the downed aircraft and THAT
> is never a good idea.
>
> If you fly into a rock the odds are, you won't be in condition to do
> any traveling. If you're lucky enough to be able to select where the
> bird goes down, there's a high probability you'll suffer some
> injuries, in which case you will want to stay at or close to the crash
> site. Even if you make a good landing ( that is, one you can walk
> away from ) the odds of your being rescued are several orders of
> magnitude better if you stay with the downed airplane.
>
> Common practice with cap & ball revolvers that do NOT have a safety
> notch is to load only five rounds, reserving the sixth chamber for
> resting the hammer upon. Another common practice is to provide an
> anchoring point for a lanyard so that the pistol can never be lost or
> forgotten.
>
> To me, a 'shooting pouch' containing your caps, powder and bullets, is
> far more important than a holster. Indeed, a simple cloth pouch large
> enough to hold the pistol and its accouterments is a virtual
> necessity. Such a pouch can serve as a 'holster' of sorts. Such a
> pouch also lends itself to the task of building your survival weapon
> into the airframe.
>
> -R.S.Hoover

My wife and I bought a machine called a Food Saver that vacuum packs
things in very tough plastic bags. A machine like this is very useful
around the house but could also be used to pack up your survival gun.

I would warm up the gun and use some wax on a patch to coat the bore and
the inside of the chambers. then wrap it in a lightly oiled cloth with
a couple desiccant packs then seal it up. I would think a gun packed up
like this would last almost forever.

I've never vacuum packed gunpowder but I've found that some things
powdered will turn into a lump when vacuum packed. It would probably be
a good idea to vacuum pack a small amount of black powder to see how
well it stores.

Tony

[150flivver]

On Nov 29, 12:43*pm, Anthony W > wrote:
> wrote:
> > To All:
>
> > The following is taken from back-channel communications; folks who had
> > a question but didn't want to ask it publicly.
>
> > 'I tend to agree with those who believe a .22 pistol and a variety of
> > bullet types would be a more practical survival weapon.'
> > And I would tend to agree with you. *Ideally, it would be one of those
> > 9-shot revolvers that were popular in the 1950's. *And you're right
> > about the loads, too. *.22 Long Rifle Hollow Point, and .22 cal. shot-
> > shells are available. *If you could find one of the long-barreled
> > pistols, and rig a skeleton stock to it, you could be reasonably sure
> > of taking deer-sized game, assuming you could put a .22 Hollow Point
> > into the animal's kill-zone.
>
> > But you're talking some serious money here. *My main reason for
> > advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
> > 'Rusty' -- *I'd acquired last winter, just before I was diagnosed with
> > cancer. *I hadn't done anything with it, other than to drop it in a
> > coffee can filled with used motor oil. *When I bought it (for $2.50)
> > the barrel was blocked and it could not be cocked & fired. *But after
> > a five month soak in old motor oil I was able to clear the barrel and
> > cock the thing. *It needs to be taken apart and cleaned but right now
> > it represents a two and a half pound BALLAST MASS... something I could
> > build right into the airframe.
>
> > The only advantage a black powder pistol might have over a .22 is that
> > a .44 has the POTENTIAL to deliver more energy, assuming the cap &
> > powder was still good after being bolted to an airplane for heaven
> > knows how long.
>
> > 'How much does such a pistol cost?'
> > Purchased new, a well-made black-powder revolver can cost hundreds of
> > dollars. *But that's not the kind of pistol I've *been talking about.

[Dan[_12_]]

Anthony W wrote:
> wrote:
>> To All:
>>
>> The following is taken from back-channel communications; folks who had
>> a question but didn't want to ask it publicly.
>>
>> 'I tend to agree with those who believe a .22 pistol and a variety of
>> bullet types would be a more practical survival weapon.'
>> And I would tend to agree with you. Ideally, it would be one of those
>> 9-shot revolvers that were popular in the 1950's. And you're right
>> about the loads, too. .22 Long Rifle Hollow Point, and .22 cal. shot-
>> shells are available. If you could find one of the long-barreled
>> pistols, and rig a skeleton stock to it, you could be reasonably sure
>> of taking deer-sized game, assuming you could put a .22 Hollow Point
>> into the animal's kill-zone.
>>
>> But you're talking some serious money here. My main reason for
>> advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
>> 'Rusty' -- I'd acquired last winter, just before I was diagnosed with
>> cancer. I hadn't done anything with it, other than to drop it in a
>> coffee can filled with used motor oil. When I bought it (for $2.50)
>> the barrel was blocked and it could not be cocked & fired. But after
>> a five month soak in old motor oil I was able to clear the barrel and
>> cock the thing. It needs to be taken apart and cleaned but right now
>> it represents a two and a half pound BALLAST MASS... something I could
>> build right into the airframe.
>>
>> The only advantage a black powder pistol might have over a .22 is that
>> a .44 has the POTENTIAL to deliver more energy, assuming the cap &
>> powder was still good after being bolted to an airplane for heaven
>> knows how long.
>>
>> 'How much does such a pistol cost?'
>> Purchased new, a well-made black-powder revolver can cost hundreds of
>> dollars. But that's not the kind of pistol I've been talking about.
>> The pistol I've been talking about is something from a garage sale,
>> probably rusty and may not even work. The price of such a pistol will
>> be from $1 to $5.
>>
>> 'My (local expert) says the Colt is not as good as the Remington.'
>> He's right. You want to TRY and buy a pistol that has a top-strap
>> design. But don't ignore whatever is available, which will probably
>> be an Italian replica of an early Colt, which does not have the top-
>> strap.
>>
>> 'If the purpose is survival I should think you would want to carry the
>> pistol loaded. But I understand you can't do that (ie, leave a black
>> powder weapon loaded).'
>> That's true. Black powder is hygroscopic, meaning it will absorb
>> water... typically moisture from the air. So don't let that happen.
>> Wrap the pistol AND a desiccant pack in several layers of plastic,
>> followed by several layers of heavy-weight aluminum foil. Do not use
>> tape, just crumple the foil to make it hold. (The foil is a major
>> part of your survival gear.)
>>
>> The black powder you carry for reloading must receive the same kind of
>> vapor-barrier treatment. That is, a desiccant pack next to the powder
>> then the whole thing sealed up in several plastic baggies, followed by
>> two or three layers of HEAVY aluminum foil.
>>
>> There are some synthetic black powders, and black powder pellets, that
>> are NOT hygroscopic... or at least, less hygroscopic than the Real
>> Stuff. Some of these are so expensive that they are beyond the range
>> of my Flying On The Cheap philosophy.
>>
>> 'A black powder pistol, such as you've proposed, appears to be an
>> awkward load. Would you include a holster as part of your survival
>> pistol kit?
>> No holster. You are correct in that WHATEVER pistol you decide to
>> use, a holster of some kind would improve its practicality. But that
>> assumes you intend to leave the site of the downed aircraft and THAT
>> is never a good idea.
>>
>> If you fly into a rock the odds are, you won't be in condition to do
>> any traveling. If you're lucky enough to be able to select where the
>> bird goes down, there's a high probability you'll suffer some
>> injuries, in which case you will want to stay at or close to the crash
>> site. Even if you make a good landing ( that is, one you can walk
>> away from ) the odds of your being rescued are several orders of
>> magnitude better if you stay with the downed airplane.
>>
>> Common practice with cap & ball revolvers that do NOT have a safety
>> notch is to load only five rounds, reserving the sixth chamber for
>> resting the hammer upon. Another common practice is to provide an
>> anchoring point for a lanyard so that the pistol can never be lost or
>> forgotten.
>>
>> To me, a 'shooting pouch' containing your caps, powder and bullets, is
>> far more important than a holster. Indeed, a simple cloth pouch large
>> enough to hold the pistol and its accouterments is a virtual
>> necessity. Such a pouch can serve as a 'holster' of sorts. Such a
>> pouch also lends itself to the task of building your survival weapon
>> into the airframe.
>>
>> -R.S.Hoover
>
> My wife and I bought a machine called a Food Saver that vacuum packs
> things in very tough plastic bags. A machine like this is very useful
> around the house but could also be used to pack up your survival gun.
>
> I would warm up the gun and use some wax on a patch to coat the bore and
> the inside of the chambers. then wrap it in a lightly oiled cloth with
> a couple desiccant packs then seal it up. I would think a gun packed up
> like this would last almost forever.
>
> I've never vacuum packed gunpowder but I've found that some things
> powdered will turn into a lump when vacuum packed. It would probably be
> a good idea to vacuum pack a small amount of black powder to see how
> well it stores.
>
> Tony

I would practice extreme caution in repackaging black powder. Some
plastics can generate static electricity. Another thing is loose black
powder burns so rapidly a small amount can be used to blow out the flame
on a blow torch. Gunpowder cans are designed to rupture rather than
explode when exposed to heat. Can a sealed poly sleeve explode? I don't
know, but it's a chance I wouldn't take. For people who think plastic
containers can't be used to make a bomb do a google/you tube search on
what happens when one stuffs some dry ice into a plastic bottle which is
then recapped. Black powder also becomes pretty hairy if not stored
properly. I don't know how hot your airplane gets on a day to day basis,
but it's not a good place to store black powder. Extended storage at
higher temperatures makes black powder a tad sensitive.

Pyrodex® is safer in many ways, but respect it.

Having said all that I would like to add that an advantage to a black
powder arm is you can use it to start a fire if need be. Don't load a
projectile. I know this sounds obvious, but every safety warning there's
at least one idiot that made such a warning necessary.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dave S]

wrote:
My main reason for
> advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
> 'Rusty' -- I'd acquired last winter,
> -R.S.Hoover

Bob..

I appreciate the Homebuilder's spirit here, and being able to do
things on a budget.. But survival gear, including a gun and ammo, is
someplace I'd rather stick with off the shelf, ready to use, keep it
simple technology. A glock pistol (which I've dispatched rabbit with), a
mini 14 or camp carbine sounds much more reassuring than a refurbished
antique with loose powder, caps and balls.

Just one of them things..
Dave

[bildan]

On Nov 29, 7:05*pm, Dave S > wrote:
> wrote:
>
> * My main reason for
>
> > advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
> > 'Rusty' -- *I'd acquired last winter,
> > -R.S.Hoover
>
> Bob..
>
> * * I appreciate the Homebuilder's spirit here, and being able to do
> things on a budget.. But survival gear, including a gun and ammo, is
> someplace I'd rather stick with off the shelf, ready to use, keep it
> simple technology. A glock pistol (which I've dispatched rabbit with), a
> mini 14 or camp carbine sounds much more reassuring than a refurbished
> antique with loose powder, caps and balls.
>
> Just one of them things..
> Dave

In the interest of discussion and because it's snowing outside, how
about adding the element of non-firearm weapons. It's ancient
history, but weapons like the sling or spear are very effective in
trained hands.

Explosive weapons (firearms), especially those using black powder,
have the annoying habit of not exploding when you want them to and
vice versa. If you miss with your first shot, the next opportunity
may not come for a while. They also tend to get law enforcement
people agitated. In their favor, they take less training to use
effectively.

A spear used with a throwing stick is a fearsome weapon. If you don't
hit a large animal's vital spot, it's still hard for it to chase you
while impaled with an 8 foot spear. A good throwing stick will
provide a range near 100 yards. If you don't care to throw it, it
still makes a good standoff weapon for self defense against an
aggressive animal. Masai boys proved their manhood by taking down a
lion with one.

My favorite ancient weapon is the sling which dates from before
recorded history (I'm not talking about a rubber tube sling shot which
is also a nice weapon). A sling was the standard infantry weapon in
the ancient world - cheap to make and ammunition was everywhere at
hand. It's just a pair of roughly 5 foot leather thongs connected
with a pouch that holds the projectile. One thong has a loop for
your wrist and the other ends in a knot held against the loop making
it easier to hold on to. Vastly oversimplified, you swing it up to
max speed and then "fire" it by releasing the knotted end. The best
technique uses the full body to accelerate the projectile with an
increasing radius somewhat like a bullwhip. The final "muzzle
velocity" can exceed that of most pistols.

If you use an irregular rock, it will sound just like a bullet
ricochet. That will scare away predators which is why they were
popular with shepherds. My favorite projectile was a very silent 1"
ball bearing found in large numbers around an old railroad repair
yard.

As a kid, I perfected the ability to punch a 1" ball bearing through a
steel 55 gallon oil drum - that's hitting power. Accuracy is a bit
dodgy but since it's a silent weapon, most game will allow a second or
third shot. Practice solo since anyone else within several hundred
yards is in mortal danger until you get the hang of it. My favorite
technique was an overhand throw of just one revolution coupled with a
forward lunge. The projectile was released about 12 feet AGL on a
downward trajectory. For greater range, an underhand throw is used.
If you hit a bunny there wouldn't be enough left to eat.

[Dave S]

bildan wrote:
> On Nov 29, 7:05 pm, Dave S > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> My main reason for
>>
>>> advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
>>> 'Rusty' -- I'd acquired last winter,
>>> -R.S.Hoover
>> Bob..
>>
>> I appreciate the Homebuilder's spirit here, and being able to do
>> things on a budget.. But survival gear, including a gun and ammo, is
>> someplace I'd rather stick with off the shelf, ready to use, keep it
>> simple technology. A glock pistol (which I've dispatched rabbit with), a
>> mini 14 or camp carbine sounds much more reassuring than a refurbished
>> antique with loose powder, caps and balls.
>>
>> Just one of them things..
>> Dave
>
> In the interest of discussion and because it's snowing outside, how
> about adding the element of non-firearm weapons. It's ancient
> history, but weapons like the sling or spear are very effective in
> trained hands.

IN ADDITION to a manufactured, cartridge fed survival firearm, I could
entertain the notion of a crash axe, survival knife and a sharpening
stone. With those tools, I can fashion just about anything else, as well
as use them as weapons.

Just for conversations sake, of course. Finally put to use all that good
info from the Boy Scout Handbook and the Air Force Survival Manual.

Dave

[Anthony W]

Dave S wrote:

> Just for conversations sake, of course. Finally put to use all that good
> info from the Boy Scout Handbook and the Air Force Survival Manual.
>
> Dave

While searching for the Air Force Survival Manual, I found this. It's
interesting to say the least.
http://www.equipped.org/multiservice_ser_manual_1999.pdf

I would think that a small .22 rim-fire single shot would be sufficient
for most survival situations. One of those Chipmunk rifles with a
larger trigger guard for adult sized fingers would be about perfect.
It's very accurate out to 50 yards and a couple different types of ammo
would give it a bit more flexibility.

A few stingers for larger game is all that would be needed but most of
the time you will be looking for rabbit and squirrel sized game.

I still think that vacuum packing it wrapped in some of that oiled paper
storage wrap from Brownell's would be the way to store it.

Tony

[Tech Support]

Dave

I punched out in the middle of a winter snow storm over Greenland.

I used some of the tropical pages in the AF Survival Manual to start
my fire.

Worked fine. One match, one fire :o)

Big John
************************************************** *****

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:43:41 -0600, Dave S >
wrote:

>bildan wrote:
>> On Nov 29, 7:05 pm, Dave S > wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> My main reason for
>>>
>>>> advocating a black-powder pistol was coming upon one -- a classic
>>>> 'Rusty' -- I'd acquired last winter,
>>>> -R.S.Hoover
>>> Bob..
>>>
>>> I appreciate the Homebuilder's spirit here, and being able to do
>>> things on a budget.. But survival gear, including a gun and ammo, is
>>> someplace I'd rather stick with off the shelf, ready to use, keep it
>>> simple technology. A glock pistol (which I've dispatched rabbit with), a
>>> mini 14 or camp carbine sounds much more reassuring than a refurbished
>>> antique with loose powder, caps and balls.
>>>
>>> Just one of them things..
>>> Dave
>>
>> In the interest of discussion and because it's snowing outside, how
>> about adding the element of non-firearm weapons. It's ancient
>> history, but weapons like the sling or spear are very effective in
>> trained hands.
>
>IN ADDITION to a manufactured, cartridge fed survival firearm, I could
>entertain the notion of a crash axe, survival knife and a sharpening
>stone. With those tools, I can fashion just about anything else, as well
>as use them as weapons.
>
>Just for conversations sake, of course. Finally put to use all that good
>info from the Boy Scout Handbook and the Air Force Survival Manual.
>
>Dave