Steve Fossett

[Steve]

On Discovery Channel right now,
"Steve Fossett: What went wrong?"

[Steve]

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> On Discovery Channel right now,
> "Steve Fossett: What went wrong?"
Replay at 2:00AM Eastern if you have a DVR (or insomnia).

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:15:58 -0700, "Steve" > wrote in >:

>> On Discovery Channel right now,
>> "Steve Fossett: What went wrong?"

>Replay at 2:00AM Eastern if you have a DVR (or insomnia).

It was a very interesting show.

I'm glad I caught it.

I did about 1500 Amazon Mechanical Turk "hits."

Sounds as though the wreckage was just outside the
zone that folks were searching most intensively.

Surprising evidence at the end that he might have
survived the crash and started walking out.

Marty
--
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[Steve]

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" > wrote in message
m...
> On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:15:58 -0700, "Steve" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>> On Discovery Channel right now,
>>> "Steve Fossett: What went wrong?"
>
>>Replay at 2:00AM Eastern if you have a DVR (or insomnia).
>
> It was a very interesting show.
>
> I'm glad I caught it.
>
> I did about 1500 Amazon Mechanical Turk "hits."
>
> Sounds as though the wreckage was just outside the
> zone that folks were searching most intensively.
>
> Surprising evidence at the end that he might have
> survived the crash and started walking out.

I missed the first 15 minutes or so, but it was very good. I was surprised
by their theory that he survived the crash and was walkng to Mammoth. The
crash investigators estimated he was doing 100MPH when he hit the rocks and
the plane disintegrated. It would be amazing for someone to survive that. It
would be incredible that someone could walk.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 18:41:08 -0700, "Steve" > wrote in >:

>> Surprising evidence at the end that he might have
>> survived the crash and started walking out.

>I missed the first 15 minutes or so, but it was very good. I was surprised
>by their theory that he survived the crash and was walkng to Mammoth. The
>crash investigators estimated he was doing 100MPH when he hit the rocks and
>the plane disintegrated. It would be amazing for someone to survive that. It
>would be incredible that someone could walk.

It will be interesting to see if the theory is borne
out by the NTSB study. They may be able to tell
what shape the cockpit might have been in at the
end of the crash sequence.

From browsing around, it sounds as though it might
not have taken a very mighty wind to keep the Citabria
from cresting the ridge (if that is what he was trying
to do).

RIP and condolences to his family and friends.

Marty
--
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See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Shirl]

"Steve" > wrote:
> I missed the first 15 minutes or so, but it was very good. I was surprised
> by their theory that he survived the crash and was walkng to Mammoth. The
> crash investigators estimated he was doing 100MPH when he hit the rocks and
> the plane disintegrated. It would be amazing for someone to survive that. It
> would be incredible that someone could walk.

That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?

[Steve]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
> "Steve" > wrote:
>> I missed the first 15 minutes or so, but it was very good. I was
>> surprised
>> by their theory that he survived the crash and was walkng to Mammoth. The
>> crash investigators estimated he was doing 100MPH when he hit the rocks
>> and
>> the plane disintegrated. It would be amazing for someone to survive that.
>> It
>> would be incredible that someone could walk.
>
> That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
> your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
> in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?

Cards in my wallet, money in my pocket.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Shirl" > wrote

> That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
> your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
> in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?

Either way. It can be uncomfortable to sit on a fat wallet for a period of
time, especially in a cramped cockpit, and the harder the seat cushions, the
more uncomfortable it is.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Steve" > wrote

> I missed the first 15 minutes or so, but it was very good. I was surprised
> by their theory that he survived the crash and was walkng to Mammoth. The
> crash investigators estimated he was doing 100MPH when he hit the rocks
> and the plane disintegrated. It would be amazing for someone to survive
> that. It would be incredible that someone could walk.

I missed it completely, mostly on purpose. I thought it would be lousy.
I'll have to catch it on the reruns.

From looking at the pictures of the crash scene, I can not imagine how it
would be possible to survive an impact like that. From the distance the
engine went after impact, he was going very fast, and stopped very quickly.
Not good combinations for the human body.

As others have said, I'll await the NTSB final report, to see if they can
add anything.
--
Jim in NC

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
|
| That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
| your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
| in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?

Cards and money in my wallet, in my pocket.

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
> > your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
> > in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?

Morgans:
> Either way. It can be uncomfortable to sit on a fat wallet for a period of
> time, especially in a cramped cockpit, and the harder the seat cushions, the
> more uncomfortable it is.

Decath isn't cramped. Well, I guess depends what you're comparing it to.
It just surprised me that he would (a) take THAT much money with him if
he were just going up for an hour or two (unless he always carried
around that kind of money), and (b) that he wouldn't have it on his
person. I mean...why have it with you if you have to pack it in a bag.
Wouldn't you just leave it home? And most guys I know have their license
and SSA card in their wallet, in their pocket. No conclusions can be
drawn from all that, I know. Seems weird to me, but maybe that's how he
always did things.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Shirl" > wrote

> Decath isn't cramped. Well, I guess depends what you're comparing it to.
> It just surprised me that he would (a) take THAT much money with him if
> he were just going up for an hour or two (unless he always carried
> around that kind of money), and (b) that he wouldn't have it on his
> person. I mean...why have it with you if you have to pack it in a bag.
> Wouldn't you just leave it home? And most guys I know have their license
> and SSA card in their wallet, in their pocket. No conclusions can be
> drawn from all that, I know. Seems weird to me, but maybe that's how he
> always did things.

I suppose he would have a very different wallet, than me. Lots more cash in
big bills, I would imagine. <g>

I use lots of plastic, but only a few credit cards. Primary credit card,
backup card, health care card, a couple different licenses, a few discount
cards, pictures of kids and grandkids, insurance card, triple A card,.....
you get the picture.

I look through it occasionally, to see what I could take out, and rarely
come up with anything. It is uncomfortable, sitting on it for any period of
time. Even in a car, if I'm going to be on it for more than 45 minutes, it
comes out, on the seat or in the glove box.
--
Jim in NC

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> | That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
> | your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
> | in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?

Maxwell:
> Cards and money in my wallet, in my pocket.

Yeah. That makes the most sense, but isn't consistent with what they
found. Can't imagine bringing that much $ but not having it in your
pocket.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Shirl" > wrote
>
> Yeah. That makes the most sense, but isn't consistent with what they
> found. Can't imagine bringing that much $ but not having it in your
> pocket.

Money, and the amount that you and I would consider "that much $" would be
much different, in his eyes compared to us, I would think.
--
Jim in NC

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > Yeah. That makes the most sense, but isn't consistent with what they
> > found. Can't imagine bringing that much $ but not having it in your
> > pocket.

Morgans:
> Money, and the amount that you and I would consider "that much $"
> would be much different, in his eyes compared to us, I would think.

That's true. Good point. Still, would seem he'd have it ON him vs. just
somewhere else in the plane, but ... who knows.

[Denny]

2 credit cards, driving license, etc. and spending money in front
pocket... My sciatic nerves do not appreciate sitting on lumps...
I will usually have a bit more money in a bank envelope in my jacket
just in case I "need" something... Since I usually take my jacket off
in the plane it could be separated from me in a crash...
Ideas on how much walking around money is too much is relative...
Over the years I have seen guys who look like they sleep under a
bridge, pull out 10-15K in cash from their bib overalls to pay for a
tractor, or a gun. etc....
I have also seen guys who look like millionaires, Rolex, custom suit,
Mercedes, and not able to pay for a round of drinks...
It takes all kinds...

As far as him walking away - my guess is he did not (and it's a guess
only)... That engine was literally crushed from the pictures I saw -
which takes a lot of impact G force... He should have had fractured
ankles, broken wrists, in addition to lacerated liver, torn aorta,
ruptured spleen etc. from the belts, based on that picture.. Having
been a deputy coronor in my nefarious past I have pronounced a lot of
folks at their crash site... Normally, vehicle crush of that extent is
incompatible with survival... Strange things do happen though...
denny

[Shirl]

Denny > wrote:
> 2 credit cards, driving license, etc. and spending money in front
> pocket... My sciatic nerves do not appreciate sitting on lumps...
> I will usually have a bit more money in a bank envelope in my jacket
> just in case I "need" something... Since I usually take my jacket off
> in the plane it could be separated from me in a crash...
> Ideas on how much walking around money is too much is relative...
> Over the years I have seen guys who look like they sleep under a
> bridge, pull out 10-15K in cash from their bib overalls to pay for a
> tractor, or a gun. etc....
> I have also seen guys who look like millionaires, Rolex, custom suit,
> Mercedes, and not able to pay for a round of drinks...
> It takes all kinds...

You're right about that. Seems like a lot to me, but it may have been
SOP for him to carry that much cash around.

> As far as him walking away - my guess is he did not (and it's a guess
> only)... That engine was literally crushed from the pictures I saw -
> which takes a lot of impact G force... He should have had fractured
> ankles, broken wrists, in addition to lacerated liver, torn aorta,
> ruptured spleen etc. from the belts, based on that picture.. Having
> been a deputy coronor in my nefarious past I have pronounced a lot of
> folks at their crash site... Normally, vehicle crush of that extent is
> incompatible with survival... Strange things do happen though...

What if he bailed into trees just before impact? That's doubtful, but so
is the idea that a bear would carry him *that* far, IMO.

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
| Shirl:
| > | That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
| > | your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
| > | in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?
|
| Maxwell:
| > Cards and money in my wallet, in my pocket.
|
| Yeah. That makes the most sense, but isn't consistent with what they
| found. Can't imagine bringing that much $ but not having it in your
| pocket.

Perhaps, but considering his income bracket, and the fact he was traveling,
it doesn't really seem unreasonable to me. My usual draw at the ATM is $300
in 20s. So I often have 3 to 400 in 20s, which is actually more paper than
he had. Other than that, I carry a couple of licenses, four credit cards and
a half dozen business cards, and it's not a bad fit.

[Shirl]

"Maxwell" wrote:
> Perhaps, but considering his income bracket, and the fact he was traveling,
> it doesn't really seem unreasonable to me. My usual draw at the ATM is $300
> in 20s. So I often have 3 to 400 in 20s, which is actually more paper than
> he had.

I thought they said they found $1000 in cash.
Either way, I agree that how much is "odd" to be carrying in cash is
subjective. To me, anything over $500 in paper seems like a lot, but as
you said, people carry more when they're traveling.

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
| "Maxwell" wrote:
| > Perhaps, but considering his income bracket, and the fact he was
traveling,
| > it doesn't really seem unreasonable to me. My usual draw at the ATM is
$300
| > in 20s. So I often have 3 to 400 in 20s, which is actually more paper
than
| > he had.
|
| I thought they said they found $1000 in cash.
| Either way, I agree that how much is "odd" to be carrying in cash is
| subjective. To me, anything over $500 in paper seems like a lot, but as
| you said, people carry more when they're traveling.

I think the LA Times reported it as 10, $100 bills.

But I agree, plastic has become so universal, easy (no loose change), and
accountable, I avoid using cash myself.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Shirl wrote:
>
> That's all speculation. Curious...as a guy, when you fly, do you keep
> your identification cards and money in your wallet, in your pocket? or
> in a separate bag somewhere else in the airplane?

I use a "minimalist money clip wallet" that has the cash clipped to the
outside, my driver's license in a clear pocket on the other side of the
outside, and (5) credit cards (a debit card, personal Visa and Amex,
and business Visa and Amex), my airport ID, pilot's certificate &
medical, and insurance cards.

It's surprisingly small, as I carry less than $50 in cash. I normally
charge EVERYTHING to rebate cards, and cash is usually easy and free to
replenish nowadays.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Maxwell wrote:
>
> But I agree, plastic has become so universal, easy (no loose change), and
> accountable, I avoid using cash myself.
>

Same here. I even charge fast food and cab rides. <G> I hate change
enough to charge a total of $1.05 @ Wendy's!

About the only time I use cash is for incidental tipping, like sky caps,
or cash only food deliveries. In those cases, I need small bills, though.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 3, 2:28*pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Maxwell wrote:
>
> > But I agree, plastic has become so universal, easy (no loose change), and
> > accountable, I avoid using cash myself.
>
> Same here. *I even charge fast food and cab rides. *<G> *I hate change
> enough to charge a total of $1.05 @ Wendy's!
>
> About the only time I use cash is for incidental tipping, like sky caps,
> or cash only food deliveries. *In those cases, I need small bills, though.

Because of the fees the card companies charge, I rarely charge
anything under about $15. The merchant can actually be left with
nothing.
In the cases of certain small, family business, I won't use the card
at all, and they appreciate that.

[Maxwell[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 2:28 pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Maxwell wrote:
>
> > But I agree, plastic has become so universal, easy (no loose change),
> > and
> > accountable, I avoid using cash myself.
>
> Same here. I even charge fast food and cab rides. <G> I hate change
> enough to charge a total of $1.05 @ Wendy's!
>
> About the only time I use cash is for incidental tipping, like sky caps,
> or cash only food deliveries. In those cases, I need small bills, though.

Because of the fees the card companies charge, I rarely charge
anything under about $15. The merchant can actually be left with
nothing.
In the cases of certain small, family business, I won't use the card
at all, and they appreciate that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aren't all the fees based on a percentage? Why would it really matter?

[Steve]

"Maxwell" <#$$9#@%%%.^^^> wrote in message
...

> Aren't all the fees based on a percentage? Why would it really matter?
>
There is a flat transaction fee and a percentage. Small volume businesses
pay highest for both.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Steve wrote:
> There is a flat transaction fee and a percentage. Small volume businesses
> pay highest for both.


Depends on how small the business's CC traffic is.

My plane co-owner owns a bicycle shop. I've worked part time there for
7 years. I think the original $15 number is far overstated based on his
business, as well as another friend's (2) package stores.

Everybody charges nearly everything at the package store, and most
transactions are under $15. Think about the typical lunch transaction.
$6, $7, maybe $9 or $10? All of my favorite one-off lunch haunts
gladly accept my cards.

Specifically at the bike shop, transactions over $35 are cheaper for the
merchant if the customer uses a debit card, under is better with credit.
We encourage college students who want to buy a $5 tube with a debit
card to let us run it as a Visa or Mastercard.

[Morgans[_2_]]

> wrote

Because of the fees the card companies charge, I rarely charge
anything under about $15. The merchant can actually be left with
nothing.
In the cases of certain small, family business, I won't use the card
at all, and they appreciate that.
****************************

Jim in NC wrote the following:

I thought it was always a straight percentage of purchase, no?
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

B A R R Y > wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>> There is a flat transaction fee and a percentage. Small volume businesses
>> pay highest for both.
>
>
> Depends on how small the business's CC traffic is.
>
> My plane co-owner owns a bicycle shop. I've worked part time there for
> 7 years. I think the original $15 number is far overstated based on his
> business, as well as another friend's (2) package stores.
>
> Everybody charges nearly everything at the package store, and most
> transactions are under $15. Think about the typical lunch transaction.
> $6, $7, maybe $9 or $10? All of my favorite one-off lunch haunts
> gladly accept my cards.
>
> Specifically at the bike shop, transactions over $35 are cheaper for the
> merchant if the customer uses a debit card, under is better with credit.
> We encourage college students who want to buy a $5 tube with a debit
> card to let us run it as a Visa or Mastercard.

Transaction fees are also usually tied to volume.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

wrote:
>
> Transaction fees are also usually tied to volume.
>

Right! And the merchant's provider.

Some smaller merchants actually get decent deals from small local banks,
or discount consolidators like Costco Wholesale.

Others have suffered shark attacks...

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
| wrote:
| >
| > Transaction fees are also usually tied to volume.
| >
|
| Right! And the merchant's provider.
|
| Some smaller merchants actually get decent deals from small local banks,
| or discount consolidators like Costco Wholesale.
|
| Others have suffered shark attacks...

But does the individual sale amount ever vary the cost?

I don't take credit cards in my business, but all the offers made to me to
do so have always been a straight percentage.

[[email protected]]

Maxwell <#$$9#@%%%.^^^> wrote:
>
> "B A R R Y" > wrote in message
> ...
> | wrote:
> | >
> | > Transaction fees are also usually tied to volume.
> | >
> |
> | Right! And the merchant's provider.
> |
> | Some smaller merchants actually get decent deals from small local banks,
> | or discount consolidators like Costco Wholesale.
> |
> | Others have suffered shark attacks...
>
> But does the individual sale amount ever vary the cost?
>
> I don't take credit cards in my business, but all the offers made to me to
> do so have always been a straight percentage.

The costs to the merchant are going to depend on the provider, the numerical
volume, and the money volume.

There is usually a monthly minimum fee.

For a retail business with high volumes, the minimum becomes a non-issue
and the rate is normally a straight percentage.

If the business is such that credit card volume is really low, the fees
can easily eat up all the profit.

Like everything else in life, it depends.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Maxwell[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
| Maxwell <#$$9#@%%%.^^^> wrote:
| >
| > "B A R R Y" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | wrote:
| > | >
| > | > Transaction fees are also usually tied to volume.
| > | >
| > |
| > | Right! And the merchant's provider.
| > |
| > | Some smaller merchants actually get decent deals from small local
banks,
| > | or discount consolidators like Costco Wholesale.
| > |
| > | Others have suffered shark attacks...
| >
| > But does the individual sale amount ever vary the cost?
| >
| > I don't take credit cards in my business, but all the offers made to me
to
| > do so have always been a straight percentage.
|
| The costs to the merchant are going to depend on the provider, the
numerical
| volume, and the money volume.
|
| There is usually a monthly minimum fee.
|
| For a retail business with high volumes, the minimum becomes a non-issue
| and the rate is normally a straight percentage.
|
| If the business is such that credit card volume is really low, the fees
| can easily eat up all the profit.
|
| Like everything else in life, it depends.
|

Agreed, but let me rephrase. Has anyone accepting Visa ever been charged a
higher percentage on transactions because they were under $10 or $15?

I had never heard this before.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Morgans wrote:
> > wrote
>
> Because of the fees the card companies charge, I rarely charge
> anything under about $15. The merchant can actually be left with
> nothing.
> In the cases of certain small, family business, I won't use the card
> at all, and they appreciate that.
> ****************************
>
> Jim in NC wrote the following:
>
> I thought it was always a straight percentage of purchase, no?

I'm not going to say always because I'm sure there are people out there
that negotiated bad CC processing deals. But the industry norm now is
either a flat negotiated percentage or a negotiated percentage that goes
up or down depending on volume. The key word in both is negotiated.

If you don't like the deal you are getting as a credit card merchant
shop for a new processor.