I'm searching for a book.

[Sqeeb]

Welcome.
I do not know if it's the best place(or places because i send this mail to
rec.aviation.military and rec.aviation.piloting) to ask, but I don't know
any better.

I am searching for a book about modern fighter dogfighting, modern air
combat manoeuvering(excuse me but I do not know how to spell it) and so on.
I have only found this two books on amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fighter-Combat-Manoeuvring-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1903223989/ref=pd_luc_sbs_02_02

I will be very happy if someone would help me.

I'm sorry for all mistakes that I have done in this mail.

Greet,
Sqeeb

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Dec 22, 4:44 am, "Sqeeb" > wrote:
> Welcome.
> I do not know if it's the best place(or places because i send this mail to
> rec.aviation.military and rec.aviation.piloting) to ask, but I don't know
> any better.
>
> I am searching for a book about modern fighter dogfighting, modern air
> combat manoeuvering(excuse me but I do not know how to spell it) and so on.
> I have only found this two books on amazon:

You came to a good place.
This fellow poster is an author(ity) on the subject,
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

If he doesn't know it, it likely doesn't exist.
You might contact him for more advice.
Ken

[Sqeeb]

> This fellow poster is an author(ity) on the subject,
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com
> www.thunderchief.org
>
> If he doesn't know it, it likely doesn't exist.

I see he wrote some books. Now it is begining to be a problem with choosing
the 'best ones'...

> You might contact him for more advice.

You really think he has time for writing mails to flight-noobs like me?

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Dec 22, 8:51 am, "Sqeeb" > wrote:
> > This fellow poster is an author(ity) on the subject,
> > Ed Rasimus
> > Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> >www.thundertales.blogspot.com
> >www.thunderchief.org
>
> > If he doesn't know it, it likely doesn't exist.
>
> I see he wrote some books. Now it is begining to be a problem with choosing
> the 'best ones'...
>
> > You might contact him for more advice.
>
> You really think he has time for writing mails to flight-noobs like me?

Of course!
Ed's a frequent poster here, search this group, and
read some of his articles, I think he's working on a
new book right now, but he usually checks in every
few days.
Ken

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:51:50 +0100, "Sqeeb" > wrote:

>> This fellow poster is an author(ity) on the subject,
>> Ed Rasimus
>> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>> www.thundertales.blogspot.com
>> www.thunderchief.org
>>
>> If he doesn't know it, it likely doesn't exist.
>
>I see he wrote some books. Now it is begining to be a problem with choosing
>the 'best ones'...
>
>> You might contact him for more advice.
>
>You really think he has time for writing mails to flight-noobs like me?
>
Ya never know.

Shaw's book is an excellent resource. But, you'd be advised to already
know the basics such as what a high and low speed yo-yo are, what
lead, lag and pure pursuit curves are, what radial g is about, what
e-m (energy manuverabilty) and P-sub-S deal with, what mutual support
is about in a free/engaged fighter scenario, and what weapons
parameters in a comparative scenario mean, things like F-poles.

Your initial query does little to establish your start point in the
discussion. You might seek out an old pamphlet by Boots Blesse titled
"No Guts, No Glory" or watch some reruns of the "Dogfight" series on
the History Channel. Seriously, they are good primers on the topic.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

[Sqeeb]

> Ya never know.

But I'll meaby try when I'll have a little free time.

> Shaw's book is an excellent resource. But, you'd be advised to
> already know the basics such as what a high and low speed yo-yo
> are, what lead, lag and pure pursuit curves are,

I know, that's simple.

> what radial g is about,

Radial g? Erm... Do You mean g-force? That force which in physics is equal
to weidv^2 / r?

> what e-m (energy manuverabilty)

Simple. energy = velocity + altitude.

> and P-sub-S deal with, what mutual support is about in a
> free/engaged fighter scenario, and what weapons
> parameters in a comparative scenario mean, things like F-poles.

Uhm... That would be quite difficult at the moment. But I'm sure that I can
read about it somewhere.

> Your initial query does little to establish your start point in the
> discussion. You might seek out an old pamphlet by Boots Blesse
> titled "No Guts, No Glory" or watch some reruns of the "Dogfight"
> series on the History Channel. Seriously, they are good primers on
> the topic.

I have watched already some videos more less related to dogfighting on
youtube.com and red couple of articles. Meaby I will suprise You guys, but I
am not from USA or the rest of english-speaking world. I am from Poland and
there are very few reccurent topics (basics manouvers, e-m and some history)
in my language.

In connection to above mentioned I'm searching for a book(or meaby two)
about dogfighting, from basics theory to photos/illustrations of real
traning/combat situations. I am really receptive.. I hope You get my point
now.

I am thinking right now about that Shaw's book, but firstly I'll try to find
lower-priced one. 46 pounds its quite a lot for me(meaby in dollars it will
be less). But I also think about Yours "Palace Cobra". This book is directed
on storys from Vietnam War?

Sorry for all language-mistakes.

Greet,
Sqeeb

[Sqeeb]

> to weidv^2 / r?

I wanted to wrote weight * velocity ^ 2 / radius

[guy]

On 22 Dec, 18:44, "Sqeeb" > wrote:
> > Ya never know.
>
> But I'll meaby try when I'll have a little free time.
>
> > Shaw's book is an excellent resource. But, you'd be advised to
> > already know the basics such as what a high and low speed yo-yo
> > are, what lead, lag and pure pursuit curves are,
>
> I know, that's simple.
>
> > what radial g is about,
>
> Radial g? Erm... Do You mean g-force? That force which in physics is equal
> to weidv^2 / r?
>
> > what e-m (energy manuverabilty)
>
> Simple. energy = velocity + altitude.
>
> > and P-sub-S deal with, what mutual support is about in a
> > free/engaged fighter scenario, and what weapons
> > parameters in a comparative scenario mean, things like F-poles.
>
> Uhm... That would be quite difficult at the moment. But I'm sure that I can
> read about it somewhere.
>
> > Your initial query does little to establish your start point in the
> > discussion. You might seek out an old pamphlet by Boots Blesse
> > titled "No Guts, No Glory" or watch some reruns of the "Dogfight"
> > series on the History Channel. Seriously, they are good primers on
> > the topic.
>
> I have watched already some videos more less related to dogfighting on
> youtube.com and red couple of articles. Meaby I will suprise You guys, but I
> am not from USA or the rest of english-speaking world. I am from Poland and
> there are very few reccurent topics (basics manouvers, e-m and some history)
> in my language.
>
> In connection to above mentioned I'm searching for a book(or meaby two)
> about dogfighting, from basics theory to photos/illustrations of real
> traning/combat situations. I am really receptive.. I hope You get my point
> now.
>
> I am thinking right now about that Shaw's book, but firstly I'll try to find
> lower-priced one. 46 pounds its quite a lot for me(meaby in dollars it will
> be less). But I also think about Yours "Palace Cobra". This book is directed
> on storys from Vietnam War?
>
> Sorry for all language-mistakes.
>
> Greet,
> Sqeeb

You might try pinging JasiekS, he is from Poland, IIRC Warsaw, and has
good technical knowledge, he might be able to point you at Polish
sources.

cheers

Guy

[gpsman]

On Dec 22, 1:08*pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
> Shaw's book is an excellent resource.

"Excellent"...?

Is there a better one?
-----

- gpsman

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:55:22 -0800 (PST), gpsman
> wrote:

>On Dec 22, 1:08*pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>>
>> Shaw's book is an excellent resource.
>
>"Excellent"...?
>
>Is there a better one?
> -----
>
>- gpsman

Always! You are asking if there is a single "universal truth".

What's the purpose? What's the aircraft? What are the weapons? What is
the scenario? Are we talking about comparative performance or fully
integrated modern combat scenarios?

Typically the latest tactics manuals for a given weapon system are
going to be "better" than generic discussions of the subject.

Check behind the "green door".

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

[gpsman]

On Dec 22, 3:01*pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:55:22 -0800 (PST), gpsman
>
> > wrote:
> >On Dec 22, 1:08*pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
> >> Shaw's book is an excellent resource.
>
> >"Excellent"...?
>
> >Is there a better one?
>
> Always!

So, there is no such thing as "best"?

> You are asking if there is a single "universal truth".

No, I'm asking if there's a better resource (available) regarding the
OP's quest for "a book about modern fighter dogfighting, modern air
combat manoeuvering"<>

> What's the purpose? What's the aircraft? What are the weapons? What is
> the scenario? Are we talking about comparative performance or fully
> integrated modern combat scenarios?

Just BCM. I think they call it BCM because it pretty much applies
across the board, kinda like "Stick & Rudder".

> Typically the latest tactics manuals for a given weapon system are
> going to be "better" than generic discussions of the subject.

I imagine so. I also imagine those manuals aren't generally made
available to the public...

AFAIK, and that's about from here | to | there, it's more or less
"look down, shoot down", way outside visual range these days.

> Check behind the "green door".

The movie?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068260/
-----

- gpsman

[Gordon[_2_]]

Anyone else seeing a leetle red flag..?

[gpsman]

On Dec 22, 1:44*pm, "Sqeeb" > wrote:
>
> I am thinking right now about that Shaw's book, but firstly I'll try to find
> lower-priced one. 46 pounds its quite a lot for me<>

A cheaper alternative might be finding a copy of the old Microprose
flight sim Falcon 3.0, Gold, or 4.0.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(computer_game)

3.0 was advertised as "a declassified version of the simulator used to
train National Guard F-16 pilots".

The extensive manual that came with v3.0 (the only version with which
I have experience) covered BCM pretty well, and the program included a
comprehensive training program.
-----

- gpsman

[Sqeeb]

> A cheaper alternative might be finding a copy of the old
> Microprose flight sim Falcon 3.0, Gold, or 4.0.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(computer_game)
>
> 3.0 was advertised as "a declassified version of the simulator used
> to train National Guard F-16 pilots".
>
> The extensive manual that came with v3.0 (the only version with
> which I have experience) covered BCM pretty well, and the
> program included a comprehensive training program.

I have Lock On Modern Air Combat v1.02 right now and it also covers BCM
well. And there are few aircrafts to choose(Su-25,27,33, MiG-29(A/S),
F-15C).

Greet,
Sqeeb

[Peter Stickney[_2_]]

Sqeeb wrote:

> Welcome.
> I do not know if it's the best place(or places because i send this mail to
> rec.aviation.military and rec.aviation.piloting) to ask, but I don't know
> any better.
>
> I am searching for a book about modern fighter dogfighting, modern air
> combat manoeuvering(excuse me but I do not know how to spell it) and so
> on. I have only found this two books on amazon:
>
>
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fighter-Combat-Manoeuvring-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599

It is very hard to go wrong with the Gospel According to Shaw.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1903223989/ref=pd_luc_sbs_02_02
I don't know this one - It does look interesting.
Are you interested in simulation and Air Combat AIs?
If you are very technical, and know your way around algorithms,
NASA published a series of reports on logic developed to provide
proper behavior for 1970s and 1980s era 1 vs 1 combat.
The results were quite good - the code was inventing the proper maneuvers
just through use of its logic and the opponents situation.
If you'll bear with me, I'll try to dig out a reference.

For a more layman-oriented (and easier on the wallet) set of references,
check for books by Mike Spick, such as:
The Ace Factor
By Mike Spick, Michael Spick
Published by Harper Mass Market Paperbacks (Mm), 1989
ISBN 0380708256, 9780380708253
256 pages

or

Fighter Pilot Tactics: The Techniques of Daylight Air Combat
By Mike Spick
Published by Patrick Stephens, 1983
ISBN 0850596173, 9780850596175
176 pages

or

Modern Air Combat: The Aircraft, Tactics and Weapons Employed in Aerial
Warfare Today
By Bill Gunston, Mike Spick
Published by Salamander, 2001
ISBN 0861011627, 9780861011629
224 pages

> I'm sorry for all mistakes that I have done in this mail.

I assure you, sir, that your English is much better than my Polish.
You're doing just fine.
>
> Greet,
Welcome to the group.

--
Pete Stickney
The better the Four Wheel Drive, the further out you get stuck.

[Sqeeb]

Thank all of You for your help. Actually its christmas time and I don't have to much time for my own things.

I'll propobly respond again around monday.


Marry Christmas.


Greet,
Sqeeb