Plane Accidentally Starts Moving With 6-Year-Old Inside

[Monk]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html

PALESTINE, Texas — Federal investigators are looking into an accident
involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
year-old girl.

Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.

Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
Palestine Municipal Airport.

Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.

Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.


--------------------

A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. He
should have asked for help in getting the plane started. His heart
was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.

Monk

[BT]

It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the trees.
But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
negligence on the grandfathers part
Now.. if the airplane had been tied down during the hand propping and a tie
down broke.. then that might be considered an accidental incident

And for Monk.. why do people have to keep positing things that are in the
news, on the news services, on the electronic emails such as AvWeb or
ePilot.

BT

"Monk" > wrote in message
...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html

PALESTINE, Texas — Federal investigators are looking into an accident
involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
year-old girl.

Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.

Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
Palestine Municipal Airport.

Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.

Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.


--------------------

A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. He
should have asked for help in getting the plane started. His heart
was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.

Monk

[Morgans[_2_]]

"BT" > wrote

> But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
> negligence on the grandfathers part

I would have to agree with that, also. We don't need silly incidents like
that for GA... It makes everyone look stupid.

> Now.. if the airplane had been tied down during the hand propping and a
> tie down broke.. then that might be considered an accidental incident

Yep.

> And for Monk.. why do people have to keep positing things that are in the
> news, on the news services, on the electronic emails such as AvWeb or
> ePilot.

I think that is just someone trying to make conversation, and trying to be
nice by telling people who do not get one of the mentioned services about
things like this happening. As long as it is just a once in a while type of
thing, I really don't mind seeing it brought up again, even if I already
read it in one of the publications.

Does it really bother you? I suppose that is silly to ask, since you
brought it up, but I guess I wonder why, and how bad it gets under your
skin.
--
Jim in NC

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:40:12 -0800 (PST), Monk >
wrote:

>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html
>
>PALESTINE, Texas — Federal investigators are looking into an accident
>involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
>year-old girl.
>
>Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
>when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
>manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.
>
>Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
>and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
>Palestine Municipal Airport.
>
>Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
>Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
>treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.
>
>Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.
>
>
>--------------------
>
>A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. He
>should have asked for help in getting the plane started. His heart
>was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.
>
>Monk

his heart wasnt in the right place.
if the battery was stuffed he should have replaced it.
this accident happened a long time before the day of the crash.

I've replaced my battery twice in the last ten years to avoid just
this sort of accident.
Stealth Pilot

[a[_3_]]

On Dec 30, 5:45*am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:40:12 -0800 (PST), Monk >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html
>
> >PALESTINE, Texas — *Federal investigators are looking into an accident
> >involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
> >year-old girl.
>
> >Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
> >when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
> >manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.
>
> >Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
> >and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
> >Palestine Municipal Airport.
>
> >Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
> >Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
> >treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.
>
> >Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.
>
> >--------------------
>
> >A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. *He
> >should have asked for help in getting the plane started. *His heart
> >was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.
>
> >Monk
>
> his heart wasnt in the right place.
> if the battery was stuffed he should have replaced it.
> this accident happened a long time before the day of the crash.
>
> I've replaced my battery twice in the last ten years to avoid just
> this sort of accident.
> Stealth Pilot- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

how about this as the first item on the hand prop check list.

TIE DOWN THE TAIL!

[Monk]

On Dec 30, 5:45*am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:40:12 -0800 (PST), Monk >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html
>
> >PALESTINE, Texas — *Federal investigators are looking into an accident
> >involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
> >year-old girl.
>
> >Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
> >when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
> >manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.
>
> >Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
> >and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
> >Palestine Municipal Airport.
>
> >Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
> >Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
> >treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.
>
> >Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.
>
> >--------------------
>
> >A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. *He
> >should have asked for help in getting the plane started. *His heart
> >was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.
>
> >Monk
>
> his heart wasnt in the right place.
> if the battery was stuffed he should have replaced it.
> this accident happened a long time before the day of the crash.
>
> I've replaced my battery twice in the last ten years to avoid just
> this sort of accident.
> Stealth Pilot

I meant the part about him wanting to share the joy of aviation with
his granddaughter. He should have been at the control and asked
another adult at airport to hand prop it for him. Yes, charging the
battery or replacing the battery would have been a better option.

Monk

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Monk wrote:
>
> I meant the part about him wanting to share the joy of aviation with
> his granddaughter. He should have been at the control and asked
> another adult at airport to hand prop it for him.

The 6 year old couldn't hand prop the plane?

When _I_ was 6... <G>

<ducking...>

[Stuart Fields]

"Monk" > wrote in message
...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473498,00.html

PALESTINE, Texas — Federal investigators are looking into an accident
involving a small plane at an eastern Texas airfield that injured a 6-
year-old girl.

Palestine fire officials said the girl was alone in the Cessna 150
when her 81-year-old grandfather, Virgil Fielden of Fairfield,
manually started the engine of the two-seat plane Sunday afternoon.

Fire Capt. Kyle Betterton says the plane began rolling unexpectedly
and crashed into nearby woods. He says it never left the grounds of
Palestine Municipal Airport.

Betterton says the girl wasn't seriously injured but was airlifted to
Children's Medical Center in Dallas as a precaution. Fielden was
treated for minor injuries at a Palestine hospital.

Palestine is about 100 miles southeast of Dallas.


--------------------

A grandpa trying to share some good memory with his granddaughter. He
should have asked for help in getting the plane started. His heart
was ni the right place. Glad no one was hurt.

Monk
I'm 72 and can still remember setting in the cockpit of a Buhl Pup at the
age of 6 and being scared because my uncle was pulling the prop thru oiling
the rockers. Of course the mag switch was off, and of course the mag switch
was in the cockpit with me. I would have been alright if the thing had
started as long as I didn't touch the throttle. The land to the east of
Artesia NM is flat and the Pup would have just run out of gas after a long
taxi. I don't think there were any trees in the way short of Amarillo.

[george]

On Dec 31, 9:51*am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Monk wrote:
>
> > I meant the part about him wanting to share the joy of aviation with
> > his granddaughter. *He should have been at the control and asked
> > another adult at airport to hand prop it for him.
>
> The 6 year old couldn't hand prop the plane?
>
> When _I_ was 6... *<G>
>
> <ducking...>

He can't have been 'chock full of ideas then ?
:-)

[Robert M. Gary]

On Dec 29, 9:48*pm, "BT" > wrote:
> It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the trees.
> But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
> negligence on the grandfathers part

Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?

In anycase, its not always practical to tie down the tail (especially
in areas without tiedown). I had 3 ways to secure the Aeronca and J-3.
Brakes, chock, tail tiedown. I would always use 2 of those 3. Many,
many times I started the plane when no tie down was available but then
I would use a chock and the aircraft brake (which was marginal). One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar. Once you've started the plane you can walk around,
put it in a low idle, and then unsecure the airplane.

-Robert

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> One
> thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
> hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
> starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
> with a big roar.

I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
hand propping.

Am I dreaming?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Dec 31, 1:34*pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > One
> > thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
> > hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
> > starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
> > with a big roar.
>
> I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
> hand propping.
>
> Am I dreaming?

In the US you are. That is a Canadian rule. I can't ever remember
having a licensed pilot when I was hand proping. In truth its only
scarry to those that haven't done it. In fact you have to stop
yourself every once-in-a-while because it becomes so common its easy
to let your guard down. If I had to have another pilot around that
would have killed 90% of my flights.

-Robert

[BT]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" > wrote:
>> It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the trees.
>> But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
>> negligence on the grandfathers part

>Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
>plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?

If one does not follow known procedure and safety guidelines and causes
injury.
Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
Or is it negligence.

[Mike Gaskins[_2_]]

On Dec 31, 4:34*pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
> I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
> hand propping.
>
> Am I dreaming?

I know some airports require it. I can't find anything FAR's
regarding it in a quick web search.

The FAA's Airplane Handbook however (which is not a set of rules but
rather a textbook) suggests a person "familiar with the controls" to
be inside the plane.

The few guys I know at the airport who have planes that need to be
hand propped generally just find anyone nearby. Several times I've
seen one guy who owns a pretty nice J-3 let one of the younger
teenagers that hangs around the airport sit inside while he propped
the plane, and as a "present" he let the kid taxi it over to the fuel
pumps.

Of course he's not much for regulations even if that was illegal. I've
seen the same guy take that little plane off from the parking ramp
rather than taxi out to the runway O.O.

Mike Gaskins

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Dec 31, 1:34 pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>> One
>>> thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
>>> hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
>>> starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
>>> with a big roar.
>> I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
>> hand propping.
>>
>> Am I dreaming?
>
> In the US you are.

Maybe I'm thinking of an airport rule...

[vaughn]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
> Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
> Or is it negligence.

The two are not mutually exclusive, so your answer is "both". We are all
capable of doing dumb things. (though some of us may be more capable than
others)

Vaughn

[Anyolmouse]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the
trees.
> But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
> negligence on the grandfathers part

Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?

In anycase, its not always practical to tie down the tail (especially
in areas without tiedown). I had 3 ways to secure the Aeronca and J-3.
Brakes, chock, tail tiedown. I would always use 2 of those 3. Many,
many times I started the plane when no tie down was available but then
I would use a chock and the aircraft brake (which was marginal). One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar. Once you've started the plane you can walk around,
put it in a low idle, and then unsecure the airplane.

-Robert

Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a fence.
The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
the FAA's at the time.

--
Anyolmouse

[Peter Dohm]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>> On Dec 31, 1:34 pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
>>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>>> One
>>>> thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
>>>> hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
>>>> starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
>>>> with a big roar.
>>> I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
>>> hand propping.
>>>
>>> Am I dreaming?
>>
>> In the US you are.
>
> Maybe I'm thinking of an airport rule...

Yes, you are--and occasionally a municipal rule. I won't even try to hazard
a guess as to whether either of those are enforceable, or under what
circumstances.

Peter

[vaughn]

"Anyolmouse" > wrote in message
...

> Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
> rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a fence.
> The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
> did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
> require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
> the FAA's at the time.

See FARs Part 830.2 (definitions)

Vaughn

[Anyolmouse]

"Anyolmouse" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
|
...
| On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" > wrote:
| > It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the
| trees.
| > But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would
be
| > negligence on the grandfathers part
|
| Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
| plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?
|
| In anycase, its not always practical to tie down the tail (especially
| in areas without tiedown). I had 3 ways to secure the Aeronca and J-3.
| Brakes, chock, tail tiedown. I would always use 2 of those 3. Many,
| many times I started the plane when no tie down was available but then
| I would use a chock and the aircraft brake (which was marginal). One
| thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
| hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
| starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
| with a big roar. Once you've started the plane you can walk around,
| put it in a low idle, and then unsecure the airplane.
|
| -Robert
|
| Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
| rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a
fence.
| The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
| did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
| require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
| the FAA's at the time.
|
| --
| Anyolmouse
|

Here is the definition taken from:
http://www.nolan-law.com/practice-areas/aviation-accident/aviation-insights/#Incident

An aviation accident is the most serious and may be defined as such if
at least one person is killed or hospitalized for longer than 24 hours
and/or the aircraft is destroyed or substantially damaged. Thus, it is
possible to have an aviation accident in which no people are seriously
injured but the aircraft is lost as was the case early in 2008 with the
loss of a British Airways B777 at Heathrow Airport. Also meeting the
test of an aviation accident was the 1997 loss of a TWA B747 flying out
of New York when a fuel tank exploded and all 230 persons aboard were
killed and the aircraft was destroyed.

I guess negligence could come into play either for accidents or
incidents.

--
Anyolmouse

[Anyolmouse]

"vaughn" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Anyolmouse" > wrote in message
| ...
|
| > Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
| > rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a
fence.
| > The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that
incidents
| > did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents
did
| > require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy
or
| > the FAA's at the time.
|
| See FARs Part 830.2 (definitions)
|
| Vaughn


I did so. Thanks-

--
Anyolmouse

[Peter Dohm]

"vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "BT" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
>> Or is it negligence.
>
> The two are not mutually exclusive, so your answer is "both". We are
> all capable of doing dumb things. (though some of us may be more capable
> than others)
>
> Vaughn
>
True, although the point that has been missed in this discussion, on at
least two newsgroups, is the maintenance issue--especially with respect to
the breaker points in the magnetos.

When the breaker points, a/k/a e-gap, are not correctly set, there will
usually be insufficient spark to easily start the engine be hand propping.
When that problem occurs, it is discuoragingly common to experiment a little
in an effort to get the engine started. Also, most people are unaware of
how much thrust the engine can develop--the old rule of thumb is about one
fifth of the certificated gross weight of the aircraft and most production
aircraft with fixed pitch props come very close to that number. That means
many of the tie down ropes and anchors, especially the temporary varieties,
are little more trustworthy than chocks for the purpose.

I have heard a couple of very amusing old stories in which the aircarft
supposedly flew after "getting loose" when hand propped. In both of the
most entertaining cases, the aircraft eventually landed safety. In one
case, the pilot hand propped an Ercoupe and the pilots wife, who was a
frequent passenger but not a pilot, was in the aircraft and "stepped up" as
a pinch hitter--successfully landing rather firmly but without damage after
a couple of missed approaches. In the other case, the pilot's young son,
aged around 6 years, was in the aircraft and sinply waited untill the
aircraft landed itself due to fuel exhaustion--although I personally
susspect that the kid may have also "stepped up" and influenced the landing
site to favaor an especially flat and open area. In both cases, the
throttles had supposedly been advanced to facilitate a difficult start, and
the engines supposedly commenced to operate at about 1800 RPM.

Therefore, IMHO, proper maintenance of magnetos would be at least as
effective a solution as any other!

Peter

A SAFE, HEALTHY, AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO ALL !!!!

[[email protected]]

On Dec 31, 3:01*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> > Am I dreaming?
>
> In the US you are. That is a Canadian rule. I can't ever remember
> having a licensed pilot when I was hand proping. In truth its only
> scarry to those that haven't done it. In fact you have to stop
> yourself every once-in-a-while because it becomes so common its easy
> to let your guard down. If I had to have another pilot around that
> would have killed 90% of my flights.

Canadian rule does not require a competent person at the controls
if the airplane is prevented from moving. Here's the reg:

Starting and Ground Running of Aircraft Engines

602.10 (1) No person shall start an engine of an aircraft unless

(a) a pilot's seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control
the aircraft;

(b) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving;
or

(c) in the case of a seaplane, the aircraft is in a location from
which any movement of the aircraft will not endanger persons or
property.


In my case, I have a really strong parking brake. And if I have
to use more than fully-closed throttle, I tie the tail down.

Dan

[Scott[_7_]]

B A R R Y wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> One
>> thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
>> hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
>> starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
>> with a big roar.
>
>
> I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
> hand propping.
>
> Am I dreaming?
>

Except when you fly to an unattended airport, fuel up (U-Fuel Self
Service) with your credit card, find there isn't a soul there except you
and you still have 300 miles to go to your destination.

[Bear Bottoms[_4_]]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:40:12 -0800 (PST), Monk wrote:

> Palestine

KILL HAMAS!
--
Bear Bottoms
Private Attorney General

[Monk]

On Dec 30 2008, 12:48*am, "BT" > wrote:
> And for Monk.. why do people have to keep positing things that are in the
> news, on the news services, on the electronic emails such as AvWeb or
> ePilot.
>
> BT

And for BT... why do people have to keep asking questions and not use
a question mark? <g>

Monk