Winch Launching

[Rolf]

Caesar Creek Soaring Club is investigating the possibility of winch
launching on our field. As expected there are very polarized opinions
on the merits, value, and safety of winch launching. I would
appreciate any rational inputs on the merits of winching or reference
data from other sites on training merits and safety. Actual experience
data would also be appreciated.
Thanks

Rolf Hegele
President, CCSC

[John Smith]

This has been discussed here many times, and if you search the archieves
you'll find plenty of material. Anyway, a short summary:

Pro:
- it is safe *if* done properly. Be sure to get thorough instruction by
experienced people.
- cheaper than aerotow
- "greener" than aerotow
- it is fun!

Con:
- it mixes poorly with power traffic (but it is doable if you have a
plan and everybody cooperates)
- boring for the winch driver
- needs more ground staff
- limited in height and distance, i.e. you can't tow to that thermal 10
miles away if there's none nearby

[bildan]

On Jan 4, 3:59 pm, John Smith > wrote:
> This has been discussed here many times, and if you search the archieves
> you'll find plenty of material. Anyway, a short summary:
>
> Pro:
> - it is safe *if* done properly. Be sure to get thorough instruction by
> experienced people.
> - cheaper than aerotow
> - "greener" than aerotow
> - it is fun!
>
> Con:
> - it mixes poorly with power traffic (but it is doable if you have a
> plan and everybody cooperates)
You only need the airspace over the airfield for less then a minute so
if you keep everybody advised on CTAF, there's no real problem. Pull
the rope out on the grass between the asphalt and the runway edge
lights where it's out of everyone's way. Many winch groups operate
from fairly busy single runway public airports.

> - boring for the winch driver
Well, it's fun for me.

> - needs more ground staff
You do need a wing runner with a CG hook, but otherwise, it's the same
number of people as aero tow (either the wing runner or winch driver
can pull out the rope) - of course, you can use more people with a
winch
..
> - limited in height and distance, i.e. you can't tow to that thermal 10 miles away if there's none nearby
The practical reality is that you rarely actually know there is a
thermal 10 miles away. If there's lift around, you can find it with a
2000'AGL winch launch - if there's no lift around, why consider an
aero tow?

Bill Daniels

[Tuno]

After ~250 aerotows, I recently got my winch endorsement. It was much
easier than I expected and I hope to do a lot more of them this summer
(should it ever arrive).

With the encroachment of urban development on many of our glider
operations and the price of gas (it *will* spike again), I believe
that winch launching is the future of our sport, whether we like it or
not. So, let's embrace the future.

Rolf if you get a winch I hope you'll share your club's experience
here.

..02NO

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

Finding a long enough strip is exceedingly difficult in some parts of the
country.

At 23:59 04 January 2009, John Smith wrote:
>This has been discussed here many times, and if you search the archieves

>you'll find plenty of material. Anyway, a short summary:
>
>Pro:
>- it is safe *if* done properly. Be sure to get thorough instruction by
>experienced people.
>- cheaper than aerotow
>- "greener" than aerotow
>- it is fun!
>
>Con:
>- it mixes poorly with power traffic (but it is doable if you have a
>plan and everybody cooperates)
>- boring for the winch driver
>- needs more ground staff
>- limited in height and distance, i.e. you can't tow to that thermal 10

>miles away if there's none nearby
>

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 4, 9:00*pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> Finding a long enough strip is exceedingly difficult in some parts of the
> country.
>
Spoken by one in a club that recently moved and purchased an airport.
But as I understand it your club apparently does have an option to
extend your length enough to adopt winching with some bartering.

A winch can be parked some distance from the end of the runway.
Overruns at municipal airports are usually at least 500ft. Runway
light of concern are usually easily removed for the day. Granted,
CCSC is rather short for 'performance' winching, and Red Stewart
airport (1.5miles distant), where the winch proponents did a
significant number of launches this past year is a bit longer, however
at that airfield there may be an opportunity to park the winch well
past the airfield boundary, an option that doesn't exist at the CCSC
site. Mixed operations are quite manageable, mostly it's
communications, communications, communications.

Thinking 'way outside the box', 16.1 miles distant is Wilmington Air
Park, owned by DHL, who is pulling out of the US market. Two runways,
(4250' separation), of 9000' and greater length but 150' wide. Opt
for the shorter one and share the airport with UPS or FEDEX or whoever
may want to serve Cincinnati from there. This may be a golden
opportunity, but it would take 5-day operations most of the season to
make it happen. Of course, Wilmington Air Park doesn't have the park-
like ambiance of CCSC's present site. To gain 1200 more feet at the
present site, CCSC would have to acquire land and close a road; two
big and expensive challenges. There appears to be some type of
easement or right of way to the south that might become a new road and
high tension lines to the far east beyond the houses that could
parallel new private lanes.

Winching is quite safe unless you simply must get everyone involved in
driving the winch. CCSC already has a team concept at work and
extending this to winching would seem trivial. The boring bit about
winch driving is waiting while some instructors and students are doing
ground school at the launch point. If the glider is ready when the
rope arrives, a single drum winch can keep up with a tow plane. A two-
drum winch will outrun any tow plane in terms of vertical feet per
day. Few, if any, tow ten miles to lift. Most club boards would put
high fees on twenty minute turn arounds in flat country. I think
that's more common in the mountain west where the tach hour charges
apply for long, high tows. Not clear from the web site about the
actual fees. There seems to be some discrepancies between the rate/
100ft on the web and the schedule and the hook up charge. This would
seem to need re-thinking for winching, that is, the ratio of hook-up
charge to launch charge.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

On Jan 4, 5:42*pm, Rolf > wrote:
> Caesar Creek Soaring Club is investigating the possibility of winch
> launching on our field. As expected there are very polarized opinions
> on the merits, value, and safety of winch launching. I would
> appreciate any rational inputs on the merits of winching or reference
> data from other sites on training merits and safety. Actual experience
> data would also be appreciated.
> Thanks
>
> Rolf Hegele
> President, CCSC


Well, I can see you are taking a more measured and scientific approach
than I did in acquiring a winch! I have discovered in my half century
(plus) of life that if I try to answer all the questions before a
substantial act of initiative, then A) I never get to the end of the
questions, and B) my subliminal goal is to scuttle the project and
relax again. Ha! Certainly I am not accusing you of this, because what
you are doing is also rightly called due-diligence - a rational and
prudent first step. So I would ask, before we emerse ourselves in
radio calls and line captains and frequencies, is staging and winching
gliders something you can visualize at your field? Can you picture it
in operation? Where do the gliders wait before being staged for
launch? Where do they land? How much line can you handle? Is it
enough? Where does the retrieve vehicle drive? If the answers are
positive, then do it! (my humble recommendation)

It is SO much fun and SO beneficial to students who need to learn to
land consistently.

I acquired a winch almost a year ago and have used it to launch a pair
of Grob 103s and an ASK21 several hundred times over the course of the
2008 season here in Faribault, Minnesota (http://
www.crosscountrysoaring.com). There are photos/video on the web site.
We do an average of 1000 launches (aero+winch) each seven-month
season...probably 70% instruction, 30% rides (sold at mall kiosks over
Xmas).

My very first step after buying the winch was to seek expertise.

Bill Daniels and Frank Whiteley spent several days with us teaching us
how a winch operation should work. They delivered this expert
instruction/experience for travel/hotel/food expenses. You can't beat
that. And in hindsight, this step was absolutely mandatory. Having
said that, and bowing to any additions/corrections these two might
make to what I am about to write, here are a some randomly occurring
thoughts:

1. It will be more fun than you thought (my decision to buy was purely
pragmatic, but it's an absolute blast)
2. 4-6 launches per hour is great for students - both for their
training and their wallets
3. Be overly cautious/respectful about announcing and clearing the
runway. You want power pilots on your side. They will love watching
the launch. Give the local power guys a free ride. Always call them
first on the radio if they are running up or entering the pattern and
let them know you can accomodate them (or if you can't, why).
4. Yes, the winch and a quart of gas launches a glider to 2000FT, does
not require expensive insurance, is not threatened by A/Ds, does not
require expensive hangar space, does not have to be operated by a
commercially rated pilot and can be worked on by anyone (no A/P or IA
necessary). So you got all that going for you. Which is nice.
5. All emergency rope breaks are handled "nose-down and straight
ahead" unless you are so high that you decide on an abbreviated
pattern. Very nice to have down-wind landings and dog-legs into
adjacent fields a thing of the past.
6. On the negative side - visualize a power failure at 2000FT and
where the cable/rope will go given the wind direction and strength.
7. On the negative side - you have to be "switched on". The first ten
seconds of the launch requires complete focus. If something goes wrong
and you expect to sort it out in real time, you're asking for it. You
should have a plan of action and execute on cue.
8. We have the option of giving up a few hundred feet of rope and
launching from the hard runway. When we don't have a wing runner, we
do this. We have added a winch call - "go easy" - in between the "up
slack" and "go" calls. The "go easy" call instructs the winch driver
to give us enough speed to level the wings. Once leveled, we call in
the "go go go" signal. This is our own creation and seems to work
really well. In fact, it's a bit easier on the tail of the Grob as it
doesn't tend to bang down from a rolling start. This allows us to
operate with one pilot and one winch driver (who also drives
retrieve). This probably wouldn't work on grass.
9. Driving the winch does get boring. Having the winch driver also
driving retrieve seems to lessen the boredom (win-win)
10. Use Spectra/Dyneema, not steel cable (safetly, performance,
handling - all better).
11. The winch has breathed excitement back into the operation.
Students love it and request it for training.
12. The winch is drawing publicity. We have made the local papers
twice.
13. We get to 2000 feet with two people in a Grob 103 Twin II in a 10
MPH headwind with 5000FT of Dyneema.
14, We operate from a Municipal Airport. We pull the runway lights at
either end before commencing operations (Google Earth is a great tool
for assessing winch potential. If you look at FBL, we stage the winch
and glider about 300-400 feet off the ends of 30/12).


We have had no accidents or incidents to date. Where aerotow is a more
"focus here and then there and then the airport is quiet again" type
launch operation, a winch operation requires constant attention, from
launch to chute drop to retrieve to restaging, back to launch again.
As soon as you get lax, a Piper will show up on short final with the
retrieve car coming head-on the other way...and words will be
spoken. :-)
Contact me privately (use the Contact Us page of the web site) if
you'd like more of my first year's experiences.
Time to sleep!
Good luck. (do it)

-Don Ingraham

[John Smith]

bildan wrote:

>> - limited in height and distance, i.e. you can't tow to that thermal 10 miles away if there's none nearby

> The practical reality is that you rarely actually know there is a
> thermal 10 miles away. If there's lift around, you can find it with a
> 2000'AGL winch launch - if there's no lift around, why consider an
> aero tow?

This depends on the location. At our site, we seldom can reach a thermal
from the winch, and even on those rare days not reliably. So as much as
we'd like to use it for cross country launches (heck, it *is* cheaper
and more fun!), winch launches are pretty much limited to student
instruction.

On the other hand, we often *do* know that there's that thermal 10 miles
away. First, because it is always there, and second, because of the
forming cumulus. But between our site and that thermal, there are 10
miles of sink. Agreed, on most days there eventually will grow thermals
near the airfield, but only at noon, when those pilots who did a aerotow
have already 2 hours under their belt and are 100 miles away. Agreed,
you can fill that gap with a sustainer, but then, you can as well
aerotow. Most airports weren't planned by glider pilots!

[Kevin Parker]

Rolfe:

Moved to England from North Carolina before last season. Three
thoughts on my experience changing over from aerotow to winch. First,
where I've flown (Long Mynd) the winch was only good for 1100 feet in
a two-seater (ASK21) flown by a winch novice like me. The old hands
didn't get more than a couple hundred feet above that. It was very
hard climbing out with so little time/altitude. I was spoiled by
2,000 ft plus aerotows. It was discouraging. Second, I almost got
myself into a real fix by not thinking of the airspace above and
around the winch run as different from the airspace around and above
an aerotow setup. Rules about the pattern--where and how it can be
joined need to be developed and reinforced to reflect the difference
of a cable sweeping through the airspace above the runway in a matter
of seconds with little or no warning to those flying in the vicinity.
Third, I used to see a wing drop every other day at the beginning of
launches at aerotow operations with no ill effects. As I understand
it, dropping a wing at the beginning of a winch launch can be very
dangerous, so I was told to stay vigilant and keep a hand on the cable
release should a wing drop.

Kevin



On 4 Jan, 23:42, Rolf > wrote:
> Caesar Creek Soaring Club is investigating the possibility of winch
> launching on our field. As expected there are very polarized opinions
> on the merits, value, and safety of winch launching. I would
> appreciate any rational inputs on the merits of winching or reference
> data from other sites on training merits and safety. Actual experience
> data would also be appreciated.
> Thanks
>
> Rolf Hegele
> President, CCSC

[flyingmr2]

I wonder if one of the new generation winches like the Hydrowinch with
a 4000ft launch would make a difference. Most winch operations I have
read about all end with a 2K+ launch which does not give you a lot of
time before starting a landing pattern. Just imagine a 4K launch
without any lift, it still ends up being a perfect training flight of
15-25 minutes. I really want to go out to Colorado and test out the
new prototype and see if it is for real. Too bad they cost so much $$$
$$.

[John Smith]

flyingmr2 wrote:
> I wonder if one of the new generation winches like the Hydrowinch with
> a 4000ft launch would make a difference.

The limiting factor is not the winch, but the rope length which in turn
is related to the available runway length. A rough estimate is that the
height with no wind is about half the rope length.

Here's what you can do with a perfectly conventional tost winch and 3000
meters of spectra rope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VlRd9-wxQI (note
that the altimeter is in meters and the vario im m/s)

[flyingmr2]

> The limiting factor is not the winch, but the rope length which in turn
> is related to the available runway length. A rough estimate is that the
> height with no wind is about half the rope length.

Super cool video with an awesome launch. The hydrowinch site says
they have enough room on the spool for 10K of Spectra rope. I guess
if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
regular 2k launch.

[Kevin Parker]

BTW:

The main winch at the Long Mynd is paired to a retrieve winch. Using
a single drum the turnaround time is three minutes from the beginning
of one launch to the beginning of the next. No kidding.

Kevin

[John Smith]

flyingmr2 wrote:

> if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
> space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
> regular 2k launch.

Just be sure to publish a NOTAM. Nobody expects a winch rope above, say,
3000 feet AGL.

[bildan]

On Jan 5, 9:11 am, John Smith > wrote:
> flyingmr2 wrote:
> > if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
> > space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
> > regular 2k launch.
>
> Just be sure to publish a NOTAM. Nobody expects a winch rope above, say,
> 3000 feet AGL.

Lets say, just for argument, that a rope below 1500' AGL would not
deserve a NOTAM but that over 1500' it would. So how long would the
rope be above 1500' on a 3000' launch? My educated guess is that
would be 15 - 20 seconds.

Would a rope the the 1500 - 3000 foot band for 20 seconds every 10
minutes warrant a NOTAM? A typical light plane at cruise travels
about 4000 feet in 20 seconds. Couldn't you just scan the airspace
visually out to three miles before starting the launch? It's really
quiet at a winch start line so you would probably hear an approaching
aircraft. The thing is that winch ropes just aren't in the sky very
long.

Obviously, there are situations that would require a NOTAM but that's
not the case everywhere.

[bildan]

On Jan 5, 8:46 am, flyingmr2 > wrote:
> > The limiting factor is not the winch, but the rope length which in turn
> > is related to the available runway length. A rough estimate is that the
> > height with no wind is about half the rope length.
>
> Super cool video with an awesome launch. The hydrowinch site says
> they have enough room on the spool for 10K of Spectra rope. I guess
> if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
> space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
> regular 2k launch.

The question of just how high a winch launch could go has come up
several times. There is a small group of extreme kite flyers who have
flown L/D ~4 kites up to 30,000 feet using the same Spectra rope used
by glider winches. That suggests that launching a glider to the floor
of Class A airspace would be possible given enough runway and wind. I
expect that someone will do that fairly soon.

If the glider can be launched into a 50 knot wind layer, a tension
controlled winch would automatically reverse the drum rotation
direction and pay out rope - the glider would in effect be a high L/D
kite. The possible release height would then depend on the length of
the rope, not the length of the runway.

[[email protected]]

CCSC President Rolf Hegele is to be commended for soliciting info from
experts and users before bringing an additional winch for winch-to-
pattern training and glider/winch currency to CCSC. Aerotows will
remain the standard tow-to-thermal operation from this smaller
airfield. I wish to thank many of you experts who have, in the past
year, already responded with Andrew Dignan, the outgoing club
President and current VP, and me. From FARs, FAA & SSA Texts, glider/
aircraft operating handbooks, some internet winch detective work, and
your testimony, a small, dedicated group has 1. put together and
tested a safe winch operation at two locations, 2. improved the
reliability of an older single-drum Gehrlein winch, 3. created
operations procedures and constraints, 4. implimented academics and a
winch endorsement and currency training program/syllibus. In less
than half a year of part-time weekday winching we've winched over 300
times and graduated a dozen'ish current/endorsed winch pilots. Two
northern glider clubs are benefitting from a growing group of
"switched-on", current and capable CFIGs and pilots. - Jim Goebel

What follows is from the Dec 2008 CCSC Newsletter entitled "Winch
Flights in Our 2-33’s" by Tom McDonald

Our long planned CCSC winch demo was conducted successfully on
Saturday, November 1. The group flew seven flights, of which I was
personally flying or instructing on six. Tom Rudolf was signed off as
a winch instructor during the demonstration period. The intent of the
demo was to allow the CCSC and SSD boards to evaluate the program for
use at CCSC, and most of the board saw at least some of the flights.
Previously, the board approved the use of the club’s 2-33 aircraft
in winch operations at Waynesville. We’ve got 28 flights so far in
club equipment, including the 7 at the demo. You can watch some of our
flights at www.youtube.com/tjm3. Or, just go to youtube and search
“ccsc winch.”

Winch stats
Three hundred and four launches to date have used a little less
than two cups of fuel per flight. By comparison, John Antrim’s recent
fuel use study for the Pawnees estimated that a 1000 foot release uses
about 1.3 gallons.
The cost is $15 per flight in our ship, $27 in Stewarts. Even with
the higher cost per flight, transportation between the two airports
will still sometimes make renting Cubby’s 2-33 more practical than
using our own.

What you get
A lot of fun
A winch endorsement (or re-currency) in your logbook
Rapid improvement in flying skills
Potential significant cost savings

Student and currency flying
The price issue is important, but not the main thing. Consider
value, or bang for the buck.
Winch-to-pattern will never replace aerotow in our operation. But
if you are a student, winch training is definitely for you. A lot of
training flights are spent developing skills in the traffic pattern
and landing. A winch operation using two gliders can launch eight to
ten flights in an hour. You will get better at everything in a big
hurry through repetition, and cut way down on those expensive
aerotows.
Currency flying uses much the same equation. One instructor told
me that the winch operation is not cost-effective, because the short
flights result in a very high cost per hour. I disagree. I get a lot
out of these short flights, the point of which is precision. I don’t
need to bounce along behind the Pawnee to do this. Also, I’ve had four
winch-to-thermal flights so far, even with our fairly low release
height.
I can afford all the aerotows I need to stay current and enjoy
myself, but then I’m already licensed. If I were learning, taking
multiple flights learning to fly the pattern and land, the cost today
could well be prohibitive. I doubt that I could have underwritten my
son’s flight instruction a few years ago at current prices.
Even if cost were no object, though, the equation of being a much
better pilot at a much lower cost per flight is hard to beat.

Safety issues
Winch launches have potential for problems. I’m not claiming to be
an expert – I’ve got my checkout, plus about 20 flights as an
instructor. I can tell you with authority that you have to know what
you are doing – as Jim puts it, be “switched on.”
I don’t see the risk as unreasonable, especially when compared to
the 200 foot aerotow rope breaks that we routinely do in training at
CCSC. Jim and Gerry are running a very professional operation. I’ve
reviewed the winch safety recommendations published in the SSA
magazine a few months ago, and we are in compliance. The list of e-
mail consultants to this operation now includes Frank Whitely,
considered the U.S. winch authority, and the well known Derek Piggott.
The engine has a lot of power, unlike some earlier winches. It
uses a light rope with a weak link, not a steel cable. The nose-hooked
2-33 glider has benign stall characteristics – important for our short
field operation. In fact, full aft stick on the winch will not result
in a stall. Rope breaks are a possibility, but not unmanageable. I’ve
had the worst case of max pitch, min altitude simulated winch engine
failure as a surprise training event, and found it easy to cope.

Getting started
Jim Goebel and Gordon Penner developed a PowerPoint presentation
covering the academics, now available online.
Taking a demo flight first might make this ground program more
meaningful, since you would have a better frame of reference. Jim
Goebel has an e-mail list of interested pilots. He sends periodic
notices of available dates, and the rest of us let him know if we can
be there. Email Jim at or me at
to get on the list.

The future
Unfortunately, the recent demo was contentious. Six of the board
members approved the demo on the November 1 date via email, with
another member stating only that he would not make the meeting. There
was also approval in advance to set up and begin winch ops prior to
having a quorum of the board present.
On October 31, one member vigorously objected to conducting the
operation without another board vote. Unfortunately, this resulted in
our representatives on the board spending their meeting discussing the
propriety of conducting this long-planned and pre-approved operation
on that day, rather than considering the merits of the operation
itself. Also, none of the board members not already involved with
winching even came out to the flight line, much less took a demo
flight. So, the demo may not have served its stated purpose. There are
also issues with having what amounts to a commercial operation within
the club that will have to be addressed for the long term. I am
hopeful the incoming board will take a fresh look next year.

[John Smith]

bildan wrote:

> Lets say, just for argument, that a rope below 1500' AGL would not
> deserve a NOTAM but that over 1500' it would. So how long would the
> rope be above 1500' on a 3000' launch? My educated guess is that
> would be 15 - 20 seconds.

15 to 20 seconds are plenty enough for disaster. But I didn't mean it
literally. (Albeit, the 5000 feet launch in the linked YouTube clip did
require a NOTAM.) Anyway, I didn't mean it literally, but just wanted to
point out that a long rope will interfere with power traffic. This is
solvable, of course, if you have a plan and everybody cooperates. But
you definitely do need a plan.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 5, 1:31*pm, wrote:
> CCSC President Rolf Hegele is to be commended for soliciting info from
> experts and users before bringing an additional winch for winch-to-
> pattern training and glider/winch currency to CCSC. *Aerotows will
> remain the standard tow-to-thermal operation from this smaller
> airfield. *I wish to thank many of you experts who have, in the past
> year, already responded with Andrew Dignan, the outgoing club
> President and current VP, and me. *From FARs, FAA & SSA Texts, glider/
> aircraft operating handbooks, some internet winch detective work, and
> your testimony, a small, dedicated group has 1. put together and
> tested a safe winch operation at two locations, 2. improved the
> reliability of an older single-drum Gehrlein winch, 3. created
> operations procedures and constraints, 4. implimented academics and a
> winch endorsement and currency training program/syllibus. *In less
> than half a year of part-time weekday winching we've winched over 300
> times and graduated a dozen'ish current/endorsed winch pilots. *Two
> northern glider clubs are benefitting from a growing group of
> "switched-on", current and capable CFIGs and pilots. - Jim Goebel
>
> * * What follows is from the Dec 2008 CCSC Newsletter entitled *"Winch
> Flights in Our 2-33’s" by Tom McDonald
>
> * * Our long planned CCSC winch demo was conducted successfully on
> Saturday, November 1. The group flew seven flights, of which I was
> personally flying or instructing on six. Tom Rudolf was signed off as
> a winch instructor during the demonstration period. The intent of the
> demo was to allow the CCSC and SSD boards to evaluate the program for
> use at CCSC, and most of the board saw at least some of the flights.
> * * Previously, the board approved the use of the club’s 2-33 aircraft
> in winch operations at Waynesville. We’ve got 28 flights so far in
> club equipment, including the 7 at the demo. You can watch some of our
> flights atwww.youtube.com/tjm3. Or, just go to youtube and search
> “ccsc winch.”
>
> Winch stats
> * * Three hundred and four launches to date have used a little less
> than two cups of fuel per flight. By comparison, John Antrim’s recent
> fuel use study for the Pawnees estimated that a 1000 foot release uses
> about 1.3 gallons.
> * * The cost is $15 per flight in our ship, $27 in Stewarts. Even with
> the higher cost per flight, transportation between the two airports
> will still sometimes make renting Cubby’s 2-33 more practical than
> using our own.
>
> What you get
> A lot of fun
> A winch endorsement (or re-currency) in your logbook
> Rapid improvement in flying skills
> Potential significant cost savings
>
> Student and currency flying
> * * The price issue is important, but not the main thing. Consider
> value, or bang for the buck.
> * * Winch-to-pattern will never replace aerotow in our operation. But
> if you are a student, winch training is definitely for you. A lot of
> training flights are spent developing skills in the traffic pattern
> and landing. A winch operation using two gliders can launch eight to
> ten flights in an hour. You will get better at everything in a big
> hurry through repetition, and cut way down on those expensive
> aerotows.
> * * Currency flying uses much the same equation. One instructor told
> me that the winch operation is not cost-effective, because the short
> flights result in a very high cost per hour. I disagree. I get a lot
> out of these short flights, the point of which is precision. I don’t
> need to bounce along behind the Pawnee to do this. Also, I’ve had four
> winch-to-thermal flights so far, even with our fairly low release
> height.
> * * I can afford all the aerotows I need to stay current and enjoy
> myself, but then I’m already licensed. If I were learning, taking
> multiple flights learning to fly the pattern and land, the cost today
> could well be prohibitive. I doubt that I could have underwritten my
> son’s flight instruction a few years ago at current prices.
> * * Even if cost were no object, though, the equation of being a much
> better pilot at a much lower cost per flight is hard to beat.
>
> Safety issues
> * * Winch launches have potential for problems. I’m not claiming to be
> an expert – I’ve got my checkout, plus about 20 flights as an
> instructor. I can tell you with authority that you have to know what
> you are doing – as Jim puts it, be “switched on.”
> * * I don’t see the risk as unreasonable, especially when compared to
> the 200 foot aerotow rope breaks that we routinely do in training at
> CCSC. Jim and Gerry are running a very professional operation. I’ve
> reviewed the winch safety recommendations published in the SSA
> magazine a few months ago, and we are in compliance. The list of e-
> mail consultants to this operation now includes Frank Whitely,
> considered the U.S. winch authority, and the well known Derek Piggott.
> * * The engine has a lot of power, unlike some earlier winches. It
> uses a light rope with a weak link, not a steel cable. The nose-hooked
> 2-33 glider has benign stall characteristics – important for our short
> field operation. In fact, full aft stick on the winch will not result
> in a stall. Rope breaks are a possibility, but not unmanageable. I’ve
> had the worst case of max pitch, min altitude simulated winch engine
> failure as a surprise training event, and found it easy to cope.
>
> Getting started
> * * Jim Goebel and Gordon Penner developed a PowerPoint presentation
> covering the academics, now available online.
> * * Taking a demo flight first might make this ground program more
> meaningful, since you would have a better frame of reference. Jim
> Goebel has an e-mail list of interested pilots. He sends periodic
> notices of available dates, and the rest of us let him know if we can
> be there. Email Jim at or me at
> to get on the list.
>
> The future
> * * Unfortunately, the recent demo was contentious. Six of the board
> members approved the demo on the November 1 date via email, with
> another member stating only that he would not make the meeting. There
> was also approval in advance to set up and begin winch ops prior to
> having a quorum of the board present.
> * * On October 31, one member vigorously objected to conducting the
> operation without another board vote. Unfortunately, this resulted in
> our representatives on the board spending their meeting discussing the
> propriety of conducting this long-planned and pre-approved operation
> on that day, rather than considering the merits of the operation
> itself. Also, none of the board members not already involved with
> winching even came out to the flight line, much less took a demo
> flight. So, the demo may not have served its stated purpose. There are
> also issues with having what amounts to a commercial operation within
> the club that will have to be addressed for the long term. I am
> hopeful the incoming board will take a fresh look next year.

Authority, hardly. I do try to help and invite others to jump into
the pool, many heads are better than one. Effective winching is
teamwork and training. Communications is key to safety. CCSC already
operates with a team concept. It would seem trivial to extend this to
winching. What you don't want to do is have everyone learning to
drive the winch, but develop a cadre of competent drivers for the
winch and retrieve. We quibble quite a bit in the winch design yahoo
group over details, yet it's a gas for gear heads and engineers
alike. The process is simple, yet the concepts are complex when it
comes to power, tension, materials, design, and coupling it all
together. Dealing with nature's variables just takes time and
experience. Wind, hill curl, shears, cross winds, convergence zones,
thermals and sink are all transitory events that guarantee it will
take any driver lots of launches to experience and understand what was
different about that last launch. Sometimes you have to compare notes
with the glider pilot to figure what happened. Top end winches will
remove some of this. Boring? Only when the instructor and student
are doing ground school at the launch point. Be ready when the rope
arrives. It's no different than when the tow plane returns. At one
UK club where I winched, if you were staged, you were ready to go when
the ropes arrived. If you were still fiddling, you'd be pushed to the
back of the launch queue. We typically got 1600-1800agl and I could
count on one hand the number of re-lights I took each season (long
wings help;^). At another club, we were very lucky to 1100agl on the
winch. No tow plane option either. Still got long XC flights from
those modest launches. But, I've also been known to jump out of the
winch queue to snag a tow from a transiting tow hook;^).

CCSC is rather short and I think they've defined their goals with a
winch there. Red Stewart Airport is 1.5 miles away, but IIRC, there's
too much weekend traffic to winch effectively, so they've done it
weekdays only. It might be possible to park the winch 1000ft off the
end there, but expansion of CCSC's gliderport would require property
acquisition and a new road, both expensive and probably unlikely
prospects. Thinking 'way outside the box' the largest privately owned
airport in the US, Wilmington AirPark, is 16 miles away and owned by
DHL with an uncertain future. Sure would be interesting if there was
a place for soaring there, but that's pie in the sky, because the real
estate developers are already circling to pick it apart. None ridge
sites with short runs have passed along their winches to others in
time. Establishing a new glider port with a winch may encounter less
nimby problems than with a tow plane. I suspect some at CCSC will
never accept winching for themselves. I hope they will accept it for
others.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

A few of points:

1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:
http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/servlet/flugbetrieb.ActionDispatcher?menuSelect=270
for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
on the BGA site for more sites in English.

2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).

3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.

4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
but this is to give some ideas on winch use.

5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
that are available in the States.

Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)


Bob

[bildan]

On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, " >
wrote:
> A few of points:
>
> 1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
> here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/servlet/flugbetrieb.ActionDispatcher?...
> for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
> on the BGA site for more sites in English.
>
> 2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
> winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
> almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
> 5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
> winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).
>
> 3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
> looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
> 70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
> suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
> with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
> some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.
>
> 4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
> to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
> volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
> students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
> recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
> but this is to give some ideas on winch use.
>
> 5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
> areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
> flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
> then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
> ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
> course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
> very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
> that are available in the States.
>
> Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
> comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
> low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
> of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
> to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
> thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
> remember mine :`)
>
> Bob

Bob, can you comment on German winch safety statistics?

Bill Daniels

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 6, 12:22*am, " >
wrote:
> A few of points:
>
> 1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
> here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/servlet/flugbetrieb.ActionDispatcher?...
> for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
> on the BGA site for more sites in English.
>
> 2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
> winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
> almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
> 5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
> winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).
>
> 3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
> looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
> 70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
> suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
> with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
> some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.
>
> 4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
> to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
> volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
> students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
> recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
> but this is to give some ideas on winch use.
>
> 5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
> areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
> flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
> then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
> ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
> course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
> very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
> that are available in the States.
>
> Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
> comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
> low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
> of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
> to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
> thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
> remember mine :`)
>
> Bob

Good points Bob. If only CCSC were 3200ft long.

Frank

[Surfer!]

>On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, " >
>wrote:
<Snip>
>> Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
>> comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
>> low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
>> of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
>> to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
>> thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
>> remember mine :`)
<Snip>

Hope the snip is right...

How happy one is low down surely depends on what kind of site one learnt
at? If it's a ridge site then no, when the ridge(s) is/are working, one
launches, heads for the ridge and goes soaring, possibly just ridge
soaring or possibly as a prelude to thermal and/or wave soaring.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[[email protected]]

Bill

Unfortunately I can't. As my Deutsch skills only allow me to order a
bier, find the restroom, and get authorization to transit airspace I
have a hard time with researching the stats. I will ask and see if I
can get them.

Frank

2800 feet is still enough for a 1000 foot launch in a plane with a cCG
hook. Good for pattern work and landing practice. And as landing
practice is the most expensive cost of learning to soar {all those
pesky areotows just to get lannding practice :´)} a winch launch is a
good way to get landing practice. On a good day, i.e. no thermals...I
could get 6-10 landings during my training at a cost of 35€ (before
our clud had it's ab initio deal). And, let's face it, to be a safe
soaring pilot landing skills are paramount!

Surfer

Don't know as I have never ridge soared off a winch launch but it
would be great! I think that most pilots would be safer if they
learned to fly at lower heights(AGL). If you learn to fly correctly at
1000-900-800-700 feet, the procedures for flying at these AGL heights
should be the same as those for higher flights, the views are
different. At some point early in your soaring career you will be at
these heights, and of course you will be within reach of a landable
field, so you may as well have a lot of practice. I certainly still
have a habit of getting low once per long flight. Pick a field, circle
in 0 lift, circle, circle, .5, circle... .8....1.0 and away I go after
30 minutes or so.

These issues are CFIG issues. If your instructors were comfortable
with winch launches then everyone would be comfortable. I don't know
how you get a core of instructors winch "savvy" unless you all get
together and send a bunch our way :-}

Bob

[Papa3]

On Jan 6, 3:05*pm, Surfer! > wrote:
> >On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, " >
> >wrote:
> <Snip>
> >> Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
> >> comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
> >> low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
> >> of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
> >> to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
> >> thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
> >> remember mine :`)
>
> <Snip>
>
> Hope the snip is right...
>
> How happy one is low down surely depends on what kind of site one learnt
> at? *If it's a ridge site then no, when the ridge(s) is/are working, one
> launches, heads for the ridge and goes soaring, possibly just ridge
> soaring or possibly as a prelude to thermal and/or wave soaring.
>
> --
> Surfer!
> Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

FWIW, I was lucky enough to learn auto-tows (not quite the same as
winching) from John Campbell back in the mid 1980's. We rarely got
above 700-800 feet AGL, but this was actually IDEAL training for
students getting close to solo. It forces you to develop a very good
"feel" for the pattern and requires a certain amount of flexibility
when things don't go quite as planned. Plus, you can operate with
only one rated pilot, eliminating the "no tow pilot today" problem
which happens in many smaller clubs.

If I were king, I would have an operation that used both winch and
aero tow. The winch comes out first thing in the morning (no reason
not to start at 7 a.m. on nice summer days), and your students who are
ready for landing practice get 3 hours all to themselves while a) the
neighbors get to sleep in and b) the students don't burn huge holes in
their wallet. Round about 11 am the towplane fires up and hauls some
early students who need airwork as well as the XC guys who just HAVE
to get going now. Tow pilot takes his/her lunch break around 1 pm
and the winch gets going again to work with more students as well as
those cheapskates who just can't bring themselves to spend $50 on a
2,000 foot aero-tow while they can get a 1,200 foot winch launch for
$18.

Sorry Rolf - not really answering your question. I guess the only
point is that it's not "either-or" and there are certainly many pilots
(students or folks who need to just stay current) who would benefit
from more landing practice.

Erik Mann

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:56:40 -0800, wrote:

> 2800 feet is still enough for a 1000 foot launch in a plane with a cCG
> hook. Good for pattern work and landing practice.
>
A little more is better for xc, but not a lot more is needed. I'm a
flatland pilot and almost always go xc off the winch. We use about 3000
ft of cable and don't normally get less than 1100, or 1200 if we're near
Vwinch at the top and can zoom an extra 100+.

> And as landing practice is the most expensive cost of learning to soar
> {all those pesky aerotows just to get landing practice :´)} a winch
> launch is a good way to get landing practice.
>
Absolutely. I learnt on the winch. My only pre-solo aero tow was for a
spin demo. That was a good summer, so all my spin training was from the
winch plus a good thermal. I wasn't cleared for solo aero tow until I'd
been solo a year.

> Don't know as I have never ridge soared off a winch launch but it would
> be great! I think that most pilots would be safer if they learned to fly
> at lower heights(AGL).
>
The height you need for winch launching depends a lot on the local
geology. Here's the (small) list I've flown at:

Sutton bank. This field is on top of an almost vertical cliff, so the
winch just lobs you over the edge at about 400 ft. If the ridge is
working that's plenty.

Dunstable. The field is at the bottom of a 3-400 ft ridge. Its food marks
the airfield boundary, so anything over 700 ft will see you comfortably
onto it and 4-500 ft should do the trick in a westerly.

Portmoak. The field is maybe a mile from The Bishop, which is an 1100
foot ridge. If its working you launch almost directly away from it.
1000-1100 ft is plenty. You turn right and fly onto the ridge, arriving
above 800 ft. 2-3 beats round the first bowl puts you above the top from
where you can see enough to get safely round the corner onto the main
ridge.

> I certainly still have a habit of getting low once per long flight.
>
Likewise.
IMO that's another reason for going xc off the winch: if you can get away
from it on a given day then there is a very good chance that you'll be
able to do it again if you get low out on the task.

This is in contrast to the sort of day where there's nothing below
2000ft. If you aero tow to 2500 to start an xc you'll not know that its
worms below 2K and getting low well mean an unpleasant discovery followed
by a visit to les vaches.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jan 6, 3:16*pm, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Jan 6, 3:05*pm, Surfer! > wrote:
>
>
>
> > >On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, " >
> > >wrote:
> > <Snip>
> > >> Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
> > >> comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
> > >> low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
> > >> of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
> > >> to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
> > >> thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
> > >> remember mine :`)
>
> > <Snip>
>
> > Hope the snip is right...
>
> > How happy one is low down surely depends on what kind of site one learnt
> > at? *If it's a ridge site then no, when the ridge(s) is/are working, one
> > launches, heads for the ridge and goes soaring, possibly just ridge
> > soaring or possibly as a prelude to thermal and/or wave soaring.
>
> > --
> > Surfer!
> > Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
>
> FWIW, I was lucky enough to learn auto-tows (not quite the same as
> winching) from John Campbell back in the mid 1980's. * We rarely got
> above 700-800 feet AGL, but this was actually IDEAL training for
> students getting close to solo. * It forces you to develop a very good
> "feel" for the pattern and requires a certain amount of flexibility
> when things don't go quite as planned. * Plus, you can operate with
> only one rated pilot, eliminating the "no tow pilot today" problem
> which happens in many smaller clubs.
>
> If I were king, I would have an operation that used both winch and
> aero tow. * The winch comes out first thing in the morning (no reason
> not to start at 7 a.m. on nice summer days), and your students who are
> ready for landing practice get 3 hours all to themselves while a) the
> neighbors get to sleep in and b) the students don't burn huge holes in
> their wallet. *Round about 11 am the towplane fires up and hauls some
> early students who need airwork as well as the XC guys who just HAVE
> to get going now. * *Tow pilot takes his/her lunch break around 1 pm
> and the winch gets going again to work with more students as well as
> those cheapskates who just can't bring themselves to spend $50 on a
> 2,000 foot aero-tow while they can get a 1,200 foot winch launch for
> $18.
>
> Sorry Rolf - not really answering your question. *I guess the only
> point is that it's not "either-or" and there are certainly many pilots
> (students or folks who need to just stay current) who would benefit
> from more landing practice.
>
> Erik Mann

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2008&st=olc&rt=olc&pi=18098

One pilot's summer. Coyote Run is a winch site. Note the Coyote Run
to Parowan to Coyote Run to Parowan to Ely series. He derigged once.
Didn't quite make it home on the last day of his summer safari.

Read how Cliff spent his summer vacation, http://tinyurl.com/7lwmbj

[[email protected]]

On Jan 6, 12:43*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > A few of points:
>
> > 1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
> > here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/servlet/flugbetrieb.ActionDispatcher?...
> > for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
> > on the BGA site for more sites in English.
>
> > 2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
> > winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
> > almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
> > 5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
> > winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).
>
> > 3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
> > looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
> > 70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
> > suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
> > with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
> > some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.
>
> > 4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
> > to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
> > volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
> > students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
> > recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
> > but this is to give some ideas on winch use.
>
> > 5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
> > areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
> > flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
> > then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
> > ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
> > course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
> > very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
> > that are available in the States.
>
> > Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
> > comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
> > low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
> > of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
> > to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
> > thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
> > remember mine :`)
>
> > Bob
>
> Bob, can you comment on German winch safety statistics?
>
> Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I tried to get these figures from the DAeC - no luck.
However, I got the statistics on glider launches split into aero-tow
and winch launches in the state of Northrhine-Westphalia (my old
stomping grounds). This state is not the most active soaring area in
Germany nor is it blessed with superb XC conditions many days of the
year. The overall number of glider flights is slightly declining but
the split between aero-tow and winch launches is slightly growing in
favor of winching. There are many fields similar in size of CCSC in
this area which winch exclusively due to housing developments growing
ever closer to the field.

Uli Neumann