SeeYou Flight Display

[Hal[_2_]]

I downloaded a flight yesterday from the Cambridge 302. When
displaying with SeeYou there was no wind data. The wind data was
there on a previous flight. I assume the problem is with the 302
log. Anyone seen this problem before?

[Tuno]

Hal, are you sure about wind data being included in a previous flight?
I've never heard of wind data in a 302 log. It's a calculated
parameter, so having a data sentence for it doesn't make sense.

2NO

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jan 10, 2:36*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> Hal, are you sure about wind data being included in a previous flight?
> I've never heard of wind data in a 302 log. It's a calculated
> parameter, so having a data sentence for it doesn't make sense.
>
> 2NO

Hal

This was your recent wave flight right? What exactly are you seeing
that says no wind? The windsock? It's possible that you are looking at
a part of the flight that SeeYou just does not have you turning enough
in to calculate the wind. I'll load your file when I'm near my copy of
SeeYou and look at it.

Darryl

[Hal[_2_]]

On Jan 10, 2:43*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2:36*pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
> > Hal, are you sure about wind data being included in a previous flight?
> > I've never heard of wind data in a 302 log. It's a calculated
> > parameter, so having a data sentence for it doesn't make sense.
>
> > 2NO
>
> Hal
>
> This was your recent wave flight right? What exactly are you seeing
> that says no wind? The windsock? It's possible that you are looking at
> a part of the flight that SeeYou just does not have you turning enough
> in to calculate the wind. I'll load your file when I'm near my copy of
> SeeYou and look at it.
>
> Darryl

No windsock and no wind info on the stats page. I don't understand
how the wind calculation is done in the 302 or for that matter SeeYou
display. I am sure I turned enough to have wind information. The 302
and winpilot were displaying the wind althought I am not sure it was
accurate all the time and I thought I could look at SeeYou to see if
it was accurate.

..

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

The wind data calculated by the 302 is not saved in the flight log. SeeYou
uses wind drift while circling to estimate the wind speed and direction
throughout the flight.

Paul Remde

"Hal" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 10, 2:43 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2:36 pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
> > Hal, are you sure about wind data being included in a previous flight?
> > I've never heard of wind data in a 302 log. It's a calculated
> > parameter, so having a data sentence for it doesn't make sense.
>
> > 2NO
>
> Hal
>
> This was your recent wave flight right? What exactly are you seeing
> that says no wind? The windsock? It's possible that you are looking at
> a part of the flight that SeeYou just does not have you turning enough
> in to calculate the wind. I'll load your file when I'm near my copy of
> SeeYou and look at it.
>
> Darryl

No windsock and no wind info on the stats page. I don't understand
how the wind calculation is done in the 302 or for that matter SeeYou
display. I am sure I turned enough to have wind information. The 302
and winpilot were displaying the wind althought I am not sure it was
accurate all the time and I thought I could look at SeeYou to see if
it was accurate.

..

[Brad[_2_]]

On Jan 10, 2:43*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2:36*pm, Tuno > wrote:
>
> > Hal, are you sure about wind data being included in a previous flight?
> > I've never heard of wind data in a 302 log. It's a calculated
> > parameter, so having a data sentence for it doesn't make sense.
>
> > 2NO
>
> Hal
>
> This was your recent wave flight right? What exactly are you seeing
> that says no wind? The windsock? It's possible that you are looking at
> a part of the flight that SeeYou just does not have you turning enough
> in to calculate the wind. I'll load your file when I'm near my copy of
> SeeYou and look at it.
>
> Darryl

I use a Garmin Map60CS and run XCSoar on my PDA. I noticed the same
thing that Hal mentioned a few flights ago myself. On a previous
thermal flight I had lot's of wind "data" I guess, because the
windsock kept moving around and I could see the wind info on the stats
page. Right after that flight we had a wave day. I was really excited
to see the replay to get an idea of direction and strength when
replayed in SeeYou, but alas........no wind info at all. I thought
somthing was wrong until I remembered that XCSoar requires a certain
amunt of circling to determine wind. Of course during the flight there
was no problem at all knowing the wing strength and direction, as it
was readily apparent on my GPS.

Brad

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jan 10, 3:37*pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The wind data calculated by the 302 is not saved in the flight log. *SeeYou
> uses wind drift while circling to estimate the wind speed and direction
> throughout the flight.
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Hal" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 10, 2:43 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>


Hi Hal

The 302 does it's internal wind calculation using TAS vs. GPS
groundspeed to try to do better than just pure circling. Winpilot Pro
will also use TAS data output on the NMEA stream to also better
calculate wind in flight. I'm pretty sure it is doing this, not
directly reading the wind data that the 302 computes itself (and can
also put on its NMEA stream), since at times you'll see differences
between what a 303 display says and what WinPiltot Pro calculates.
SeeYou Mobile definitely does it's own wind calculations from the TAS
data and does not read the 302 calculated wind data. WinPilot Adv does
not use the TAS/GS enhanced calculation.

This wind calculation that SeeYou Mobile and (very likely) Winpilot
Pro ignore is calculated in the Cambridge 302, some people seem to
think the 303 is needed for this. The 303 is just a display. Obviously
you need it to see the 302 calculated wind, but the 302 can also send
this calculation on the NMEA stream without a 303 being attached. Just
most PDA software appears to ignore it. As I would if I was writing
the PDA software -- I'd want to be fully in control of my own wind
algorithm.

When not thermalling I find I only needs some smooth flight with turns
+/- 30 or so either side of track for few minutes to get reasonable
wind updates from the 302/303 or SeeYou Mobile and I'd be surprised if
Winpilot Pro is much different.

The 302/303 and WinPilot Pro show very good instantaneously calculated
headwind which is handy you can just point into wind and see the
maximum headwind component while in wave and this will be very
accurate.

Lets me expand on what Paul is saying about SeeYou (desktop not
Mobile) and wind. SeeYou (desktop) *can* use enhanced TAS data to
calculate wind from an IGC file - but obviously the file needs to
contain the TAS data. If you are downloading an IGC file from your
Cambridge 302 it won't have this, even though the Cambridge can put
this out on the NMEA steam. However the IGC logger built into Winpilot
Pro and SeeYou Mobile and maybe other PDA software will record (a sub-
sample of) the enhanced TAS data from the Cambridge 302 NMEA steam in
the B-records. Look at the header of any IGC file if you see the
string "TAS" in the I record (which describes the B-record format)
then it's recording TAS (or at least leaving space to do so).

In my 26E I have a Cambridge 302/303 and a PDA running SeeYou Mobile.
I'll mostly use SeeYou Mobile for Wind but will check against the 303
display. I'll download an IGC flight log from the 302 and use that for
OLC and similar since motorgliders require need the ENL (engine noise)
support for OLC. I also have SeeYou Mobile logging at 1 sample/sec for
nice smooth traces and will use that in SeeYou for flight analysis -
and it has the added benefit since it has TAS data embedded. (Since
I'm trying to see if my C302 security fail issues have been fixed I
also have that logging it at 1 sample /sec.).

You might want to look at having Winpilot Pro record a back-up flight
log and use that for analysis like looking at this wave flight.

If you can't do this you can always take a few circles at times just
to mark wind for non-TAS enhanced SeeYou analysis, not always
practical in a wave situations but it usually only takes a few
circles.

(You need to work that Diamond altitude wave flight out of Petaluma.
Do it man!).

Darryl

[Papa3]

On Jan 10, 5:21*pm, Hal > wrote:
> I downloaded a flight yesterday from the Cambridge 302. *When
> displaying with SeeYou there was no wind data. *The wind data was
> there on a previous flight. *I assume the problem is with the 302
> log. *Anyone seen this problem before?

Hal,

Others have answered, but just thought I'd clarify. I'm assuming the
SeeYou you're talking about above is the desktop version and you were
using it for post-flight analysis (since you say "I downloaded", seems
pretty clear but just checking).

Anyway, if you look at the specs for the IGC log file, you'll see that
the only position data stored is location and time. None of the
calculated data (such as wind) is stored. Thus, whatever SeeYou
displays is based in post-flight calculation using only on position
and time data. As others have pointed out, unless you have some
amount of drift in circling flight, it's impossible for a post-flight
analysis using only this position data to determine wind.

P3

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jan 10, 8:34*pm, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Jan 10, 5:21*pm, Hal > wrote:
>
> > I downloaded a flight yesterday from the Cambridge 302. *When
> > displaying with SeeYou there was no wind data. *The wind data was
> > there on a previous flight. *I assume the problem is with the 302
> > log. *Anyone seen this problem before?
>
> Hal,
>
> Others have answered, but just thought I'd clarify. *I'm assuming the
> SeeYou you're talking about above is the desktop version and you were
> using it for post-flight analysis (since you say "I downloaded", seems
> pretty clear but just checking).
>
> Anyway, if you look at the specs for the IGC log file, you'll see that
> the only position data stored is location and time. * None of the
> calculated data (such as wind) is stored. *Thus, whatever SeeYou
> displays is based in post-flight calculation using only on position
> and time data. * As others have pointed out, unless you have some
> amount of drift in circling flight, it's impossible for a post-flight
> analysis using only this position data to determine wind.
>
> P3

Sory, this may be a common misconception, but it is not correct. IGC
files B records can contain more than position and time, including ENL
(engine noise) and the magic TAS data used for enhanced wind
calculations. And See You will use that to enhance wind calculations
just as SeeYou Mobile and WinPilog Pro uses. If your sample rate is
fast enough (1 sec?) you should get a fairly accurate replay of the
wind you PDA/computer told you existed during the flight. But yes it a
recalculation, nothing is writing pre-computed wind data to the IGC
file.

Darryl

[Bruce]

Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Jan 10, 8:34 pm, Papa3 > wrote:
>> On Jan 10, 5:21 pm, Hal > wrote:
>>
>>> I downloaded a flight yesterday from the Cambridge 302. When
>>> displaying with SeeYou there was no wind data. The wind data was
>>> there on a previous flight. I assume the problem is with the 302
>>> log. Anyone seen this problem before?
>> Hal,
>>
>> Others have answered, but just thought I'd clarify. I'm assuming the
>> SeeYou you're talking about above is the desktop version and you were
>> using it for post-flight analysis (since you say "I downloaded", seems
>> pretty clear but just checking).
>>
>> Anyway, if you look at the specs for the IGC log file, you'll see that
>> the only position data stored is location and time. None of the
>> calculated data (such as wind) is stored. Thus, whatever SeeYou
>> displays is based in post-flight calculation using only on position
>> and time data. As others have pointed out, unless you have some
>> amount of drift in circling flight, it's impossible for a post-flight
>> analysis using only this position data to determine wind.
>>
>> P3
>
> Sory, this may be a common misconception, but it is not correct. IGC
> files B records can contain more than position and time, including ENL
> (engine noise) and the magic TAS data used for enhanced wind
> calculations. And See You will use that to enhance wind calculations
> just as SeeYou Mobile and WinPilog Pro uses. If your sample rate is
> fast enough (1 sec?) you should get a fairly accurate replay of the
> wind you PDA/computer told you existed during the flight. But yes it a
> recalculation, nothing is writing pre-computed wind data to the IGC
> file.
>
> Darryl
I do not know the Cambridge 302 - but on the LX loggers you can add a
long list of optional data to the B record. It does consume memory, but
that is no problem with the LX toys...

No idea where / how / if you even can set this on a 302 - but it is
certainly worth exploring.

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

Bruce wrote:

>>
>> Darryl
> I do not know the Cambridge 302 - but on the LX loggers you can add a
> long list of optional data to the B record. It does consume memory, but
> that is no problem with the LX toys...
>
> No idea where / how / if you even can set this on a 302 - but it is
> certainly worth exploring.


No way to put this info in the 302 record.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jan 10, 11:20*pm, Bruce > wrote:
> Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Jan 10, 8:34 pm, Papa3 > wrote:
> >> On Jan 10, 5:21 pm, Hal > wrote:
>
> >>> I downloaded a flight yesterday from the Cambridge 302. *When
> >>> displaying with SeeYou there was no wind data. *The wind data was
> >>> there on a previous flight. *I assume the problem is with the 302
> >>> log. *Anyone seen this problem before?
> >> Hal,
>
> >> Others have answered, but just thought I'd clarify. *I'm assuming the
> >> SeeYou you're talking about above is the desktop version and you were
> >> using it for post-flight analysis (since you say "I downloaded", seems
> >> pretty clear but just checking).
>
> >> Anyway, if you look at the specs for the IGC log file, you'll see that
> >> the only position data stored is location and time. * None of the
> >> calculated data (such as wind) is stored. *Thus, whatever SeeYou
> >> displays is based in post-flight calculation using only on position
> >> and time data. * As others have pointed out, unless you have some
> >> amount of drift in circling flight, it's impossible for a post-flight
> >> analysis using only this position data to determine wind.
>
> >> P3
>
> > Sory, this may be a common misconception, but it is not correct. IGC
> > files B records can contain more than position and time, including ENL
> > (engine noise) and the magic TAS data used for enhanced wind
> > calculations. And See You will use that to enhance wind calculations
> > just as SeeYou Mobile and WinPilog Pro uses. If your sample rate is
> > fast enough (1 sec?) you should get a fairly accurate replay of the
> > wind you PDA/computer told you existed during the flight. But yes it a
> > recalculation, nothing is writing pre-computed wind data to the IGC
> > file.
>
> > Darryl
>
> I do not know the Cambridge 302 - but on the LX loggers you can add a
> long list of optional data to the B record. It does consume memory, but
> that is no problem with the LX toys...
>
> No idea where / how / if you even can set this on a 302 - but it is
> certainly worth exploring.

Unfortunately you can't configure the data in the 302 IGC file B
records, at least not as far as I know. If it is doable it is very
well hidden. The thing to do is record a second IGC file through
WinPilot or SeeYou Mobile or other software that supports logging the
TAS data.

The table of IGC file data options that vendors can support goes on
for several pages in the IGC GNSS flight recorder spec. TAS is just
one of them.

Darryl

[Papa3]

On Jan 10, 11:41*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jan 10, 8:34*pm, Papa3 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 10, 5:21*pm, Hal > wrote:
>
> > > I downloaded a flight yesterday from the Cambridge 302. *When
> > > displaying with SeeYou there was no wind data. *The wind data was
> > > there on a previous flight. *I assume the problem is with the 302
> > > log. *Anyone seen this problem before?
>
> > Hal,
>
> > Others have answered, but just thought I'd clarify. *I'm assuming the
> > SeeYou you're talking about above is the desktop version and you were
> > using it for post-flight analysis (since you say "I downloaded", seems
> > pretty clear but just checking).
>
> > Anyway, if you look at the specs for the IGC log file, you'll see that
> > the only position data stored is location and time. * None of the
> > calculated data (such as wind) is stored. *Thus, whatever SeeYou
> > displays is based in post-flight calculation using only on position
> > and time data. * As others have pointed out, unless you have some
> > amount of drift in circling flight, it's impossible for a post-flight
> > analysis using only this position data to determine wind.
>
> > P3
>
> Sory, this may be a common misconception, but it is not correct. IGC
> files B records can contain more than position and time, including ENL
> (engine noise) and the magic TAS data used for enhanced wind
> calculations. And See You will use that to enhance wind calculations
> just as SeeYou Mobile and WinPilog Pro uses. If your sample rate is
> fast enough (1 sec?) you should get a fairly accurate replay of the
> wind you PDA/computer told you existed during the flight. But yes it a
> recalculation, nothing is writing pre-computed wind data to the IGC
> file.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, I guess that explains all those I and J records I'd been
ignoring all these years... :-)

Apologies for the mis-information. It seems like I've only ever
received for evaluation IGC files with the mandatory B record
information (aka basic data) for the last umpteen years. I had
assumed that these optional fields weren't implemented, but I stand
corrected.

Humbly,
P3