Economy Class

[RRK]

How about creating new FAI Class-The Economy Class. New gliders you
can buy for , let's say $40,000 or less. To hell with the other specs.
The only one shall be...40G. It will screw the high end producers, and
should flood the market with hundreds of very good, simple and
affordable gliders.
rrk

[[email protected]]

This has been done in Europe! It'scalled the club class. It was also
tried everywhere and called World Class!

Bob

On Jan 24, 8:10*am, RRK > wrote:
> How about creating new FAI Class-The Economy Class. New gliders you
> can buy for , let's say $40,000 or less. To hell with the other specs.
> The only one shall be...40G. It will screw the high end producers, and
> should flood the market with hundreds of very good, simple and
> affordable gliders.
> rrk

[Maciek]

>It was also
>tried everywhere and called World Class!

And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the pilots.
It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in the
competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D. "Why
should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"

Maciek K.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 24, 6:59*am, "Maciek" > wrote:
> >It was also
> >tried everywhere and called World Class!
>
> And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the pilots.
> It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in the
> competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D. "Why
> should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
> something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"
>
> Maciek K.

If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
have bought one.

-T8

[bildan]

On Jan 24, 6:51*am, wrote:
> On Jan 24, 6:59*am, "Maciek" > wrote:
>
> > >It was also
> > >tried everywhere and called World Class!
>
> > And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the pilots.
> > It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in the
> > competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D. "Why
> > should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
> > something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"
>
> > Maciek K.
>
> If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
> have bought one.
>
> -T8

True, there are lots of cheap gliders, they're just used ones. The
contest for them is the Club or Sports Class. The glass is more than
half full.

If you want new, high performance racing gliders that are still
affordable, there's a way - but it's tricky.

Far more than any other factor, the cost of new gliders is determined
by the production run. Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
if the production run is large enough. Here's the tricky part; the
manufacturer has to know how long the run will be when he designs the
glider.

So, how would he know that? There has to be a "one-design" class that
guarantees a long run.

Where the World Class went wrong is the implicit assumption that cost
is most directly related to performance - intuitive, but wrong. If
the World Cass design had been 50:1, the class would have been heavily
subscribed and the production run would have been huge and the cost no
more than the PW-5.

[bumper]

> wrote in message
...
On Jan 24, 6:59 am, "Maciek" > wrote:
> >It was also
> >tried everywhere and called World Class!
>
> And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the
> pilots.
> It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in
> the
> competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D.
> "Why
> should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
> something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"
>
> Maciek K.

If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
have bought one.

-T8

Most gliders are things of sensuous beauty. the PW5 has that in spades . . .
or at least one bull thought so :c)

bumper
zz
Quiet Vent and MKIII "high tech" yaw string (now w/long lasting synthetic
yarn or natural wool)

[[email protected]]

On Jan 24, 11:17*am, "bumper" > wrote:

> Most gliders are things of sensuous beauty. the PW5 has that in spades . .. .
> or at least one bull thought so :c)

"What a gulli-bull, what a nin-cow-poop!"
-B. Bunny

Mental health break: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh5myf9lhI0&feature=related

-T8

[Bob Kuykendall]

> ...Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
> if the production run is large enough...

Yeah, potentially so. But the curve seems to be fairly flat in the
region of most glider production runs. You'd just about have to double
the size of the worldwide fleet in five years or so before you see a
really meaningful price reduction. Not that that isn't possible, just
that it isn't all that likely given the way we're doing things today.

Personally, I'd like to see a new 12m class that replaces the World
Class. A while back I did a preliminary design of a set of carbon
fiber wings for Monerai for a friend, and the costs and panel weights
look pretty attractive. It'd be fun to make a nice fuselage for those
wings to suit smallish pilots and toss a few into the air.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Brad[_2_]]

On Jan 24, 10:39*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> > ...Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
> > if the production run is large enough...
>
> Yeah, potentially so. But the curve seems to be fairly flat in the
> region of most glider production runs. You'd just about have to double
> the size of the worldwide fleet in five years or so before you see a
> really meaningful price reduction. Not that that isn't possible, just
> that it isn't all that likely given the way we're doing things today.
>
> Personally, I'd like to see a new 12m class that replaces the World
> Class. A while back I did a preliminary design of a set of carbon
> fiber wings for Monerai for a friend, and the costs and panel weights
> look pretty attractive. It'd be fun to make a nice fuselage for those
> wings to suit smallish pilots and toss a few into the air.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

I've been flying a sub-15m ship for almost 10 years now. First a
Russia AC-4C, and presently an Apis-13. While I really like the light
weight of the ship, I do jones for a bit more performance, I think if
a sub-15m ship could get an honest 40:1, it would be met with
enthusiasm.

Brad

[bildan]

On Jan 24, 11:39*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> > ...Potentially, there are huge economies of scale
> > if the production run is large enough...
>
> Yeah, potentially so. But the curve seems to be fairly flat in the
> region of most glider production runs. You'd just about have to double
> the size of the worldwide fleet in five years or so before you see a
> really meaningful price reduction. Not that that isn't possible, just
> that it isn't all that likely given the way we're doing things today.
>
> Personally, I'd like to see a new 12m class that replaces the World
> Class. A while back I did a preliminary design of a set of carbon
> fiber wings for Monerai for a friend, and the costs and panel weights
> look pretty attractive. It'd be fun to make a nice fuselage for those
> wings to suit smallish pilots and toss a few into the air.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

But, if the number of classes keeps proliferating, the chances of a
long production run keeps dropping.

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:07:39 -0800, Brad wrote:

> On Jan 24, 10:39Â*am, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
>> > ...Potentially, there are huge economies of scale if the production
>> > run is large enough...
>>
>> Yeah, potentially so. But the curve seems to be fairly flat in the
>> region of most glider production runs. You'd just about have to double
>> the size of the worldwide fleet in five years or so before you see a
>> really meaningful price reduction. Not that that isn't possible, just
>> that it isn't all that likely given the way we're doing things today.
>>
>> Personally, I'd like to see a new 12m class that replaces the World
>> Class. A while back I did a preliminary design of a set of carbon fiber
>> wings for Monerai for a friend, and the costs and panel weights look
>> pretty attractive. It'd be fun to make a nice fuselage for those wings
>> to suit smallish pilots and toss a few into the air.
>>
>> Thanks, Bob K.
>
> I've been flying a sub-15m ship for almost 10 years now. First a Russia
> AC-4C, and presently an Apis-13. While I really like the light weight of
> the ship, I do jones for a bit more performance, I think if a sub-15m
> ship could get an honest 40:1, it would be met with enthusiasm.
>
XC performance is a funny thing. As others have said, until you're really
good at this game the pilot is more important than the glider in
determining the xc on-task time.

There is another factor too that doesn't often get discussed - some
gliders suit a pilot better than others. As an example of that, I find
that after two seasons of poor weather in my Libelle I'm getting better
xc average speeds than I did in an ASW-20, and I flew that long enough
for the right flap setting to have become automatic. This really
surprised me.

I like both gliders, but the Libelle suits my flying style better than
the '20 did. Its as simple as that.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Jan 24, 8:17*am, "bumper" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 24, 6:59 am, "Maciek" > wrote:
>
> > >It was also
> > >tried everywhere and called World Class!
>
> > And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the
> > pilots.
> > It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in
> > the
> > competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D.
> > "Why
> > should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
> > something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"
>
> > Maciek K.
>
> If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
> have bought one.

What's the best L/D on a Smart Car?

9B

[[email protected]]

On Jan 24, 5:08�pm, wrote:
> On Jan 24, 8:17�am, "bumper" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Jan 24, 6:59 am, "Maciek" > wrote:
>
> > > >It was also
> > > >tried everywhere and called World Class!
>
> > > And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the
> > > pilots.
> > > It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in
> > > the
> > > competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D.
> > > "Why
> > > should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
> > > something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"
>
> > > Maciek K.
>
> > If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
> > have bought one.
>
> What's the best L/D on a Smart Car?
>
> 9B- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Now, that's the dumbest thing I have read on RAS over the last several
weeks......9B.....the best L/D on a smart car depends on the color.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Jan 24, 11:50*am, bildan > wrote:

> But, if the number of classes keeps proliferating, the chances of a
> long production run keeps dropping.- Hide quoted text -

Here's the thing:

Soaring as we know it is hosed. EOL, game over. Time to dig a hole in
the back yard. Fortunately, we still have the opportunity to
rediscover and reinvent soaring as we've never known it.

A lot of this process of reinvention will happen rationally,
incrementally, and logically. But some if it will be the result of
blind faith and blind luck and happenstance. So my advice would be to
just try a bunch of different things, as many as we can, and see which
ones stick. And that's exactly what I intend to keep doing.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that cutting the price of a
production sailplane by 30%, from $120K down to $84K, is going to make
a measurable difference in factory orders or in incoming student
pilots. I do think that there is still a market for a $25K sport racer
that requires some sweat equity, but again that's just me.

I also think that a pretty nifty 12m all-carbon racer could be built
and flown for something like $12K to $18K given some desperation and
resourcefulness. It would have a best glide of only about 32:1 or
33:1, but its light weight and short span would open up about as much
territory to outlanding as its modest span subtracts. It would be
rugged and mechanically simple, with no airbrakes but with terminal
flaps interconnected with the ailerons. It's 18-foot panels would fit
into (and out of) a standard garage, and its 22-foot trailer (25 feet
with tongue) would fit in most driveways.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

At 19:07 24 January 2009, Brad wrote:

"I've been flying a sub-15m ship for almost 10 years now. First a
Russia AC-4C, and presently an Apis-13. While I really like the light
weight of the ship, I do jones for a bit more performance, I think if a
sub-15m ship could get an honest 40:1, it would be met with enthusiasm."

Want sub 15 meter and 40:1? Buy an ASW-27 and start sawing until you get
it down to 40:1! :-)

Or better yet, just buy something and fly!

Steve

[sisu1a]

> I also think that a pretty nifty 12m all-carbon racer could be built
> and flown for something like $12K to $18K given some desperation and
> resourcefulness. It would have a best glide of only about 32:1 or
> 33:1, but its light weight and short span would open up about as much
> territory to outlanding as its modest span subtracts. It would be
> rugged and mechanically simple, with no airbrakes but with terminal
> flaps interconnected with the ailerons. It's 18-foot panels would fit
> into (and out of) a standard garage, and its 22-foot trailer (25 feet
> with tongue) would fit in most driveways.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Will this be the HP 25?

-Paul

[Brad[_2_]]

On Jan 24, 6:45*pm, Steve Leonard > wrote:
> At 19:07 24 January 2009, Brad wrote:
>
> "I've been flying a sub-15m ship for almost 10 years now. First a
> Russia AC-4C, and presently an Apis-13. While I really like the light
> weight of the ship, I do jones for a bit more performance, I think if a
> sub-15m ship could get an honest 40:1, it would be met with enthusiasm."
>
> Want sub 15 meter and 40:1? *Buy an ASW-27 and start sawing until you get
> it down to 40:1! *:-)
>
> Or better yet, just buy something and fly!
>
> Steve

you're not paying attention to what I wrote are you......?

Brad

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Jan 24, 6:46*pm, sisu1a > wrote:

> Will this be the HP 25?

Good question. Actually, I've been thinking that HP-25 would be an
unflapped ship pulled from the same molds as the HP-24, in much the
same manner as relates the LS8 and LS6.

I haven't applied a designation to the 12m wings for Monerai beyond
Planform 1 through Planform 4, the latter being the one finally deemed
acceptable by Steve Smith.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Frank[_1_]]

On Jan 24, 9:46*pm, sisu1a > wrote:
> > I also think that a pretty nifty 12m all-carbon racer could be built
> > and flown for something like $12K to $18K given some desperation and
> > resourcefulness. It would have a best glide of only about 32:1 or
> > 33:1, but its light weight and short span would open up about as much
> > territory to outlanding as its modest span subtracts. It would be
> > rugged and mechanically simple, with no airbrakes but with terminal
> > flaps interconnected with the ailerons. It's 18-foot panels would fit
> > into (and out of) a standard garage, and its 22-foot trailer (25 feet
> > with tongue) would fit in most driveways.
>
> > Thanks, Bob K.
>
> Will this be the HP 25?
>
> -Paul

Hmm, with very light fuselage & short wings, who needs a trailer? It
might be practical to put the entire rig on top of a typical van -
sorta like 3 very long rowing sculls. Would have to be a real
attention-getter on the road ;-).

Frank (TA)

[[email protected]]

On Jan 25, 1:32*am, wrote:
> On Jan 24, 5:08 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 24, 8:17 am, "bumper" > wrote:
>
> > > > wrote in message
>
> > ....
> > > On Jan 24, 6:59 am, "Maciek" > wrote:
>
> > > > >It was also
> > > > >tried everywhere and called World Class!
>
> > > > And, unfortunately, it didn't work. Didn't work because of us - the
> > > > pilots.
> > > > It's because if only we get a few hundreds of hrs. so we could appear in
> > > > the
> > > > competition world, most of us want to fly gliders of more and more L/D.
> > > > "Why
> > > > should I, THE PILOT with say 500 hrs. fly a bicycle like PW-5 with 30:1 or
> > > > something? I'm to good for that, I need 50:1 at least"
>
> > > > Maciek K.
>
> > > If the glider selected hadn't looked like a "Smart Car", maybe I'd
> > > have bought one.
>
> > What's the best L/D on a Smart Car?
>
> > 9B- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Now, that's the dumbest thing I have read on RAS over the last several
> weeks......9B.....the best L/D on a smart car depends on the color.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No, your wrong! It depends on the tires!

[Doug Hoffman]

>>> What's the best L/D on a Smart Car?
>>> 9B- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> Now, that's the dumbest thing I have read on RAS over the last several
>> weeks......9B.....the best L/D on a smart car depends on the color.

>
> No, your wrong! It depends on the tires!

Actually, in the auto industry a vehicle without an engine, which is
commonly found during the development phase of a vehicle, is called a
"glider". At least in the US auto industry, or what's left of it.

And yes, the drag of the complete vehicle is always measured. Typically
by letting the vehicle coast and measuring the time taken to drop
between two given speeds under controlled conditions. Longer times are
better.

Regards,

-Doug

[RRK]

On Jan 24, 3:38*am, " >
wrote:
> This has been done in Europe! It'scalled the club class. It was also
> tried everywhere and called World Class!
>
> Bob


None of gliders in Club Class is new. Club class do not stimulate new
designs.
In fact, nothing in todays soaring sport stimulates designing and
building of unexpencive gliders.

RRK

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Jan 25, 9:33*am, RRK > wrote:

> In fact, nothing in todays soaring sport stimulates designing and
> building of unexpencive gliders.

There are still valid inspirations for innovative new sailplanes in
what's left of the US soaring scene. There are plenty of folks besides
me following through on them. You are certainly welcome to help. Feel
free to ask me how.

Thanks, Bob K.