TO RULES COMMETTEE PLEASE READ – Nationals no ballast day

[AK]

Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.

A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.

Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.

Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.

Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.

The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.

AK

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK > wrote:
> Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> agreeing.
>
> A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> water
> day was called.
>
> Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> weight)
>
> Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?

Matt
>
> Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
> fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
> examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
>
> Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
> pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
> ballast day”.
>
> The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
> please don't create losers.
>
> AK

[Kevin Christner]

Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
launches became necessary. This would highly favor the motor crowd,
especially penetrating upwind.

On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> > agreeing.
>
> > A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> > especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> > Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> > competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> > water
> > day was called.
>
> > Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> > weight)
>
> > Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> > ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
>
> Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
> the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> > Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
> > fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
> > examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
>
> > Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
> > pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
> > ballast day”.
>
> > The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
> > please don't create losers.
>
> > AK

[AK]

On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner > wrote:
> Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
> launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
> especially penetrating upwind.
>
> On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > > Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> > > agreeing.
>
> > > A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> > > especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> > > Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> > > competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> > > water
> > > day was called.
>
> > > Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> > > weight)
>
> > > Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> > > ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
>
> > Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
> > the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?
>
> > Matt
>
> > > Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
> > > fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
> > > examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
>
> > > Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
> > > pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
> > > ballast day”.
>
> > > The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
> > > please don't create losers.
>
> > > AK

Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
a reason for “No ballast” day.

Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
winners and losers.

The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
small number when flying at Nationals.

For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
be applied.

AK

[[email protected]]

On Jan 25, 7:22*pm, AK > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
> > launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
> > especially penetrating upwind.
>
> > On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > > > Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> > > > agreeing.
>
> > > > A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> > > > especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> > > > Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> > > > competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> > > > water
> > > > day was called.
>
> > > > Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> > > > weight)
>
> > > > Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> > > > ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
>
> > > Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
> > > the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?
>
> > > Matt
>
> > > > Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
> > > > fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
> > > > examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
>
> > > > Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
> > > > pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
> > > > ballast day”.
>
> > > > The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
> > > > please don't create losers.
>
> > > > AK
>
> Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
> a reason for “No ballast” day.
>
> Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
> winners and losers.
>
> The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
> configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
> small number when flying at Nationals.
>
> For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
> this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
> and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
> be applied.
>
> AK- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I believe that this is really targeted for an area like
Mifflin. What we get are heavy rain showers during the morning that
are pasing thur, with late day clearing. With the late day clearing
and now good ridge winds, a late day ridge task can be called, but
grid time is short and the window of opportunity is not large. Since
Mifflin needs a water tanker for ballast, and the fire dept. mans it,
they just can't sit out at the airport all day. Also, because of the
short window, we can't really rig in heavy rain and wind.
So, to get in a day, to expedite us into the air to fly, might
require this. When you have 50 gliders to water, the time involved is
close to 2 hours. The tanker has 4 hoses and the hanger has 2. @15
minutes per glider so now you get the picture of what is faced. You
also can carry non disposable balance.
My ASG 29/15 empty is 585 pds w/instruments and 1 battery. So, the
wing loadings are closer together than you post. I do know the CD's
from around the country, and will say that what they won't do is call
a task which is not fair or equal to all. Getting in a contest is
sometimes whats required and all the entrants I know will support
this, as the time required to run around and get everybody's yes or
no, we would lose the window.
When I fly in the 18 Meter configiration, I do add non
dispostable ballast to get me up to my legal weight of 1322 lbs. I
don't have a center tank and with my weight with full tanks only gets
to 1290 lbs. I have been weighted many times.
The days I speak of are really few and far between in Mifflin. Maybe
its better to think out the problem of a light wing loading and find a
simple fix than it is to miss out on a great afternoon of racing.
As far as density altitude, I do also fly out of the highest
density altitude airports seen in this country. I do this with full
water, at Max. gross, and yes, the climb is slow, but safety is not
compromised.
Passing up a National or Regional is experience that really
should not be missed. No matter where the guys or girls are at on the
score sheet, we need to remember where we have been, what we are doing
and where we are going.

I have seen and read alot of posts on RAS, including mine and I
do try to see everyone's view, but, as I spoke with someone last night
and then gave it some more thought today, I will add that this is the
USA and I have come to now believe I see nothing wrong with the IGC
adopting our rules for world competition.

Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711.

[AK]

On Jan 25, 10:17*pm, wrote:
> On Jan 25, 7:22*pm, AK > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner > wrote:
>
> > > Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
> > > launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
> > > especially penetrating upwind.
>
> > > On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > > > > Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> > > > > agreeing.
>
> > > > > A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> > > > > especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> > > > > Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> > > > > competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> > > > > water
> > > > > day was called.
>
> > > > > Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> > > > > weight)
>
> > > > > Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> > > > > ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
>
> > > > Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
> > > > the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?
>
> > > > Matt
>
> > > > > Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
> > > > > fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
> > > > > examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
>
> > > > > Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
> > > > > pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
> > > > > ballast day”.
>
> > > > > The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
> > > > > please don't create losers.
>
> > > > > AK
>
> > Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
> > a reason for “No ballast” day.
>
> > Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
> > winners and losers.
>
> > The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
> > configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
> > small number when flying at Nationals.
>
> > For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
> > this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
> > and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
> > be applied.
>
> > AK- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> * * * *I believe that this is really targeted for an area like
> Mifflin. What we get are heavy rain showers during the morning that
> are pasing thur, with late day clearing. With the late day clearing
> and now good ridge winds, a late day ridge task can be called, but
> grid time is short and the window of opportunity is not large. Since
> Mifflin needs a water tanker for ballast, and the fire dept. mans it,
> they just can't sit out at the airport all day. Also, because of the
> short window, we can't really rig in heavy rain and wind.
> * * * So, to get in a day, to expedite us into the air to fly, might
> require this. When you have 50 gliders to water, the time involved is
> close to 2 hours. The tanker has 4 hoses and the hanger has 2. @15
> minutes per glider so now you get the picture of what is faced. You
> also can carry non disposable balance.
> My ASG 29/15 empty is 585 pds w/instruments and 1 battery. So, the
> wing loadings are closer together than you post. I do know the CD's
> from around the country, and will say that what they won't do is call
> a task which is not fair or equal to all. Getting in a contest is
> sometimes whats required and all the entrants I know will support
> this, as the time required to run around and get everybody's yes or
> no, we would lose the window.
> * * * *When I fly in the 18 Meter configiration, I do add non
> dispostable ballast to get me up to my legal weight of 1322 lbs. I
> don't have a center tank and with my weight with full tanks only gets
> to 1290 lbs. I have been weighted many times.
> The days I speak of are really few and far between in Mifflin. Maybe
> its better to think out the problem of a light wing loading and find a
> simple fix than it is to miss out on a great afternoon of racing.
> * * * *As far as density altitude, I do also fly out of the highest
> density altitude airports seen in this country. I do this with full
> water, at Max. gross, and yes, the climb is slow, but safety is not
> compromised.
> * * * *Passing up a National or Regional is experience that really
> should not be missed. No matter where the guys or girls are at on the
> score sheet, we need to remember where we have been, what we are doing
> and where we are going.
>
> * * * *I have seen and read alot of posts on RAS, including mine and I
> do try to see everyone's view, but, as I spoke with someone last night
> and then gave it some more thought today, I will add that this is the
> USA and I have come to now believe I see nothing wrong with the IGC
> adopting our rules for world competition.
>
> * * *Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711.

711, thank you for taking time to reply to my post.

I spoke with an owner of ASG-29 15m/18m. I got a number from him 622
lb in a 15 m configuration.

The example you brought up is unfortunate because the higher wing
loading on the ridge or under a cumulus street will give more
advantage than on a typical thermal day.

It might be that I confused Nationals with fun. I thought the National
Contest was about competing not having fun or putting a day in. I
thought that part was secondary.

By the way 33% of responders to the poll agreed with me and 62%
disagreed.

Below is a quote from a pilot flying in a “no water” contest. A
similar thing can happen at Nationals.

“I competed against three ASH26 ships with motors vs my Lak-17AT with
sustainer. The difference in weight was 200 to as much as about 300
pounds! That is a rather large advantage to the ASH26 pilots in the
strong conditions at Parowan. I would like to see the playing field
leveled by assigning a handicap so that I don’t have to go out and buy
a ASH26 to be competitive. (I need all the help I can get} Im sure we
could come up with a mathematical formula based on wing loading to
help even the playing field. My initial calculations suggest somewhere
around a 5-7% handicap. Sincerely, Clay Thomas N44VH Lak-17AT”

I know this does not have a 100% relevance but it gets my point
across.

I certainly hope CDs will not use this rule, but maybe it should be
modified.

AK

[[email protected]]

On Jan 25, 8:54*pm, AK > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 10:17*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 7:22*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner > wrote:
>
> > > > Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
> > > > launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
> > > > especially penetrating upwind.
>
> > > > On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> > > > > > agreeing.
>
> > > > > > A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> > > > > > especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> > > > > > Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> > > > > > competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > day was called.
>
> > > > > > Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> > > > > > weight)
>
> > > > > > Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> > > > > > ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
>
> > > > > Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
> > > > > the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?
>
> > > > > Matt
>
> > > > > > Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
> > > > > > fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
> > > > > > examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
>
> > > > > > Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
> > > > > > pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
> > > > > > ballast day”.
>
> > > > > > The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
> > > > > > please don't create losers.
>
> > > > > > AK
>
> > > Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
> > > a reason for “No ballast” day.
>
> > > Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
> > > winners and losers.
>
> > > The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
> > > configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
> > > small number when flying at Nationals.
>
> > > For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
> > > this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
> > > and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
> > > be applied.
>
> > > AK- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > * * * *I believe that this is really targeted for an area like
> > Mifflin. What we get are heavy rain showers during the morning that
> > are pasing thur, with late day clearing. With the late day clearing
> > and now good ridge winds, a late day ridge task can be called, but
> > grid time is short and the window of opportunity is not large. Since
> > Mifflin needs a water tanker for ballast, and the fire dept. mans it,
> > they just can't sit out at the airport all day. Also, because of the
> > short window, we can't really rig in heavy rain and wind.
> > * * * So, to get in a day, to expedite us into the air to fly, might
> > require this. When you have 50 gliders to water, the time involved is
> > close to 2 hours. The tanker has 4 hoses and the hanger has 2. @15
> > minutes per glider so now you get the picture of what is faced. You
> > also can carry non disposable balance.
> > My ASG 29/15 empty is 585 pds w/instruments and 1 battery. So, the
> > wing loadings are closer together than you post. I do know the CD's
> > from around the country, and will say that what they won't do is call
> > a task which is not fair or equal to all. Getting in a contest is
> > sometimes whats required and all the entrants I know will support
> > this, as the time required to run around and get everybody's yes or
> > no, we would lose the window.
> > * * * *When I fly in the 18 Meter configiration, I do add non
> > dispostable ballast to get me up to my legal weight of 1322 lbs. I
> > don't have a center tank and with my weight with full tanks only gets
> > to 1290 lbs. I have been weighted many times.
> > The days I speak of are really few and far between in Mifflin. Maybe
> > its better to think out the problem of a light wing loading and find a
> > simple fix than it is to miss out on a great afternoon of racing.
> > * * * *As far as density altitude, I do also fly out of the highest
> > density altitude airports seen in this country. I do this with full
> > water, at Max. gross, and yes, the climb is slow, but safety is not
> > compromised.
> > * * * *Passing up a National or Regional is experience that really
> > should not be missed. No matter where the guys or girls are at on the
> > score sheet, we need to remember where we have been, what we are doing
> > and where we are going.
>
> > * * * *I have seen and read alot of posts on RAS, including mine and I
> > do try to see everyone's view, but, as I spoke with someone last night
> > and then gave it some more thought today, I will add that this is the
> > USA and I have come to now believe I see nothing wrong with the IGC
> > adopting our rules for world competition.
>
> > * * *Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711.
>
> 711, thank you for taking time to reply to my post.
>
> I spoke with an owner of ASG-29 15m/18m. I got a number from him 622
> lb in a 15 m configuration.
>
> The example you brought up is unfortunate because the higher wing
> loading on the ridge or under a cumulus street will give more
> advantage than on a typical thermal day.
>
> It might be that I confused Nationals with fun. I thought the National
> Contest was about competing not having fun or putting a day in. I
> thought that part was secondary.
>
> By the way 33% of responders to the poll agreed with me and 62%
> disagreed.
>
> Below is a quote from a pilot flying in a “no water” contest. A
> similar thing can happen at Nationals.
>
> “I competed against three ASH26 ships with motors vs my Lak-17AT with
> sustainer. The difference in weight was 200 to as much as about 300
> pounds! That is a rather large advantage to the ASH26 pilots in the
> strong conditions at Parowan. I would like to see the playing field
> leveled by assigning a handicap so that I don’t have to go out and buy
> a ASH26 to be competitive. (I need all the help I can get} Im sure we
> could come up with a mathematical formula based on wing loading to
> help even the playing field. My initial calculations suggest somewhere
> around a 5-7% handicap. Sincerely, Clay Thomas N44VH Lak-17AT”
>
> I know this does not have a 100% relevance but it gets my point
> across.
>
> I certainly hope CDs will not use this rule, but maybe it should be
> modified.
>
> AK- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Parowan has always been a dry contest. Strategy is required before you
go anywhere to race.
Reread my post.

Clay, VH, won the first day, at Parowan, in 2008, against those big,
bad, heavy ASH's and by almost 10 mph. I sure bet he was smiling
then.......yep.

The last day, at the 18 Meter Nationals, 2008, won by an ASW
27....yep........wing loading @ 9 lbs. Roy and I were parked along
side each other. He not only whipped me, but alot of others who were
fully loaded with water...........yep. Boy, he really enjoyed
that.........

We really need to see who the respondents are on the poll, as some of
them may have never been to a National Contest. Trust me, CD's aren't
out to get you. Being unprepared is what will cause a smiling face to
disappear. Getting a contest in is of prime importance, its as simply
as that. When a weather window appears, it really doesn't warn you.
Sometimes the window closes and we have to all go back in the box. But
at least we were their and tried. The top guns don't want an unfair
advantage. Trust me, they don't need it.

Be careful, the human mind can take you hostage, my friend, and the
ransom its asking, can be life endangering. An endangered life doesn't
have any fun at all.....................711

[AK]

On Jan 26, 12:42*am, wrote:
> On Jan 25, 8:54*pm, AK > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 10:17*pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 7:22*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner > wrote:
>
> > > > > Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
> > > > > launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
> > > > > especially penetrating upwind.
>
> > > > > On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
> > > > > > > agreeing.
>
> > > > > > > A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
> > > > > > > especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.
>
> > > > > > > Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
> > > > > > > competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
> > > > > > > water
> > > > > > > day was called.
>
> > > > > > > Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
> > > > > > > weight)
>
> > > > > > > Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> > > > > > > ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
>
> > > > > > Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
> > > > > > the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?
>
> > > > > > Matt
>
> > > > > > > Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
> > > > > > > fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
> > > > > > > examples I could give but I think my point is clear.
>
> > > > > > > Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
> > > > > > > pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
> > > > > > > ballast day”.
>
> > > > > > > The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
> > > > > > > please don't create losers.
>
> > > > > > > AK
>
> > > > Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
> > > > a reason for “No ballast” day.
>
> > > > Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
> > > > winners and losers.
>
> > > > The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
> > > > configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
> > > > small number when flying at Nationals.
>
> > > > For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
> > > > this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
> > > > and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
> > > > be applied.
>
> > > > AK- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > * * * *I believe that this is really targeted for an area like
> > > Mifflin. What we get are heavy rain showers during the morning that
> > > are pasing thur, with late day clearing. With the late day clearing
> > > and now good ridge winds, a late day ridge task can be called, but
> > > grid time is short and the window of opportunity is not large. Since
> > > Mifflin needs a water tanker for ballast, and the fire dept. mans it,
> > > they just can't sit out at the airport all day. Also, because of the
> > > short window, we can't really rig in heavy rain and wind.
> > > * * * So, to get in a day, to expedite us into the air to fly, might
> > > require this. When you have 50 gliders to water, the time involved is
> > > close to 2 hours. The tanker has 4 hoses and the hanger has 2. @15
> > > minutes per glider so now you get the picture of what is faced. You
> > > also can carry non disposable balance.
> > > My ASG 29/15 empty is 585 pds w/instruments and 1 battery. So, the
> > > wing loadings are closer together than you post. I do know the CD's
> > > from around the country, and will say that what they won't do is call
> > > a task which is not fair or equal to all. Getting in a contest is
> > > sometimes whats required and all the entrants I know will support
> > > this, as the time required to run around and get everybody's yes or
> > > no, we would lose the window.
> > > * * * *When I fly in the 18 Meter configiration, I do add non
> > > dispostable ballast to get me up to my legal weight of 1322 lbs. I
> > > don't have a center tank and with my weight with full tanks only gets
> > > to 1290 lbs. I have been weighted many times.
> > > The days I speak of are really few and far between in Mifflin. Maybe
> > > its better to think out the problem of a light wing loading and find a
> > > simple fix than it is to miss out on a great afternoon of racing.
> > > * * * *As far as density altitude, I do also fly out of the highest
> > > density altitude airports seen in this country. I do this with full
> > > water, at Max. gross, and yes, the climb is slow, but safety is not
> > > compromised.
> > > * * * *Passing up a National or Regional is experience that really
> > > should not be missed. No matter where the guys or girls are at on the
> > > score sheet, we need to remember where we have been, what we are doing
> > > and where we are going.
>
> > > * * * *I have seen and read alot of posts on RAS, including mine and I
> > > do try to see everyone's view, but, as I spoke with someone last night
> > > and then gave it some more thought today, I will add that this is the
> > > USA and I have come to now believe I see nothing wrong with the IGC
> > > adopting our rules for world competition.
>
> > > * * *Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711.
>
> > 711, thank you for taking time to reply to my post.
>
> > I spoke with an owner of ASG-29 15m/18m. I got a number from him 622
> > lb in a 15 m configuration.
>
> > The example you brought up is unfortunate because the higher wing
> > loading on the ridge or under a cumulus street will give more
> > advantage than on a typical thermal day.
>
> > It might be that I confused Nationals with fun. I thought the National
> > Contest was about competing not having fun or putting a day in. I
> > thought that part was secondary.
>
> > By the way 33% of responders to the poll agreed with me and 62%
> > disagreed.
>
> > Below is a quote from a pilot flying in a “no water” contest. A
> > similar thing can happen at Nationals.
>
> > “I competed against three ASH26 ships with motors vs my Lak-17AT with
> > sustainer. The difference in weight was 200 to as much as about 300
> > pounds! That is a rather large advantage to the ASH26 pilots in the
> > strong conditions at Parowan. I would like to see the playing field
> > leveled by assigning a handicap so that I don’t have to go out and buy
> > a ASH26 to be competitive. (I need all the help I can get} Im sure we
> > could come up with a mathematical formula based on wing loading to
> > help even the playing field. My initial calculations suggest somewhere
> > around a 5-7% handicap. Sincerely, Clay Thomas N44VH Lak-17AT”
>
> > I know this does not have a 100% relevance but it gets my point
> > across.
>
> > I certainly hope CDs will not use this rule, but maybe it should be
> > modified.
>
> > AK- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Parowan has always been a dry contest. Strategy is required before you
> go anywhere to race.
> Reread my post.
>
> Clay, VH, *won the first day, at Parowan, in 2008, against those big,
> bad, heavy ASH's and by almost 10 mph. *I sure bet he was smiling
> then.......yep.
>
> The last day, at the 18 Meter Nationals, 2008, *won by an ASW
> 27....yep........wing loading @ 9 lbs. Roy and I were parked along
> side each other. He not only whipped me, but alot of others who were
> fully loaded with water...........yep. Boy, he really enjoyed
> that.........
>
> We really need to see who the respondents are on the poll, as some of
> them may have never been to a National Contest. *Trust me, CD's aren't
> out to get you. Being unprepared is what will cause a smiling face to
> disappear. Getting a contest in is of prime importance, its as simply
> as that. When a weather window appears, it really doesn't warn you.
> Sometimes the window closes and we have to all go back in the box. But
> at least we were their and tried. The top guns don't want an unfair
> advantage. Trust me, they don't need it.
>
> Be careful, the human mind can take you hostage, my friend, and the
> ransom its asking, can be life endangering. An endangered life doesn't
> have any fun at all.....................711- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Exceptions do not make a rule.

Mathematically this is an unfair rule. Nothing is going to change this
fact. How important is it? It is not that important until someone
loses a contest.

Last year for the first time after 20 years break I flew in a contest.
I certainly can not be called an experienced contest pilot but I can
add up the numbers.

I had other financial priorities for the past 20 years, like my
family. There are a lot of people like I. Some of us will not get
involved in this sport unless we have a chance to go to the top. This
might never happen for me but I intend to do everything in my power to
get there and I hope to be playing by fair rules.

It seems to me that one not only needs to be a good pilot (I am not at
the moment), but one has to have real pile of money to remove
disadvantage of any potential rule coming down the line. The financial
bar keeps rising.

Please don’t tell me that for real pilots this is not important. I
might only get one chance in the future and when that happens I don’t
want to blame anyone else but myself.

By the way what an irony that the so much hated rule “drop a day” (if
implemented at National level) would make the impact of this rule less
severe.

For the record I do not like the “drop a day” rule and let’s NOT start
discussing the “drop a day” rule again.

[Tuno]

> Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
> ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

My ASG-29 empty, straight from the factory with instruments, was 597
pounds. Add 180 for pilot, 10 for chute, 9 for the O2 bottle, 11 for
batteries, 3 for landout kit, 5 for drinking water, 7 fixed in the fin
and 12 fixed in the cockpit and my dry flight configuration is now 8.4
pounds/ft^2.

> Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance.

Which is exactly what I had in mind when I chose the ASG-29 over the
Diana 2!

2NO

[AK]

I had an e-mail exchange with RC on this subject. I failed to convince
them this rule should be improved. I accept it. I hope this is going
to be brought up for reconsideration in the near future, but it will
not be I who is going to speak up on this subject again.

Please feel free to comment on this rule if it is dear to your heart,
but I will give it a rest.

I don’t have competition experience the RC members have. I certainly
hope I am wrong and the RC is right.

AK

[Tuno]

AK,

I understand your displeasure at the prospect of having a wing loading
disadvantage that you can do nothing about on a particular contest
day. But I do not understand your disagreement with the RC.

Yes a glider like the ASG-29/15M will have an advantage over the Diana
2 on a non-ballast day. But that assumes the conditions will be good.
The Diana 2 will have the advantage when conditions are weak, and the
-29 pilot will not be able to do a darn thing about it. Both pilots
picked their gliders before the contest with the advance knowledge
that some days they'll have an edge, some days they won't. It is
unreasonable to expect rules (and RC) to come up with "fairness" in
these situations.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Go fly.

2NO

[VHZ]

Hello 2NO,

You are correct. I can say also Diana 2 shouldn't be dangerous to fly without water but dangerous to outland with water or other ballast....

Have experience with "Flying Diana 2" but also with "non flying" serial number and not only because I am light pilot but also because a lot of factory faults (production but also in design).

Suggestion for this trouble with "no ballast day". What about standard weight in cockpit? means Pilot + parachute + ballast which will be the some for all gliders? May be 90 kg limit and who will be over will be over... (or without BBQ from start of contest to minimalize this "natural handicap" ;) )

BTW I understand AK also. He is Polish and Diana is Polish also. Try to find more about AK's Polish proud when you type in Google VH-VHZ. You will find also forums, where is AK trying to change usual rules between customer and producer...

Have a nice day,

Unhappy pilot experienced with Diana 2, serial No. 3 VH-VHZ

VHZ

PS. Now I know what it means VH-VHZ...
(Voodoo-Hunt -Victim Hana Zejdova)

PSS. Sorry for my English....


AK,

I understand your displeasure at the prospect of having a wing loading
disadvantage that you can do nothing about on a particular contest
day. But I do not understand your disagreement with the RC.

Yes a glider like the ASG-29/15M will have an advantage over the Diana
2 on a non-ballast day. But that assumes the conditions will be good.
The Diana 2 will have the advantage when conditions are weak, and the
-29 pilot will not be able to do a darn thing about it. Both pilots
picked their gliders before the contest with the advance knowledge
that some days they'll have an edge, some days they won't. It is
unreasonable to expect rules (and RC) to come up with "fairness" in
these situations.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Go fly.

2NO

[AK]

Amen

[AK]

On Feb 14, 7:48*am, VHZ > wrote:
> Hello 2NO,
>
> You are correct. I can say also Diana 2 shouldn't be dangerous to fly
> without water but dangerous to outland with water or other ballast....
>
> Have experience with "Flying Diana 2" but also with "non flying" serial
> number and not only because I am light pilot but also because a lot of
> factory faults (production but also in design).
>
> Suggestion for this trouble with "no ballast day". What about standard
> weight in cockpit? means Pilot + parachute + ballast which will be the
> some for all gliders? May be 90 kg limit and who will be over will be
> over... (or without BBQ from start of contest ;) )
>
> BTW I understand AK also. He is Polish and Diana is Polish also. Try to
> find more about Polish proud when you type in Google VH-VHZ. You will
> find also forums, where is AK trying to change usual rules between
> customer and producer...
>
> Have a nice day,
>
> Unhappy pilot experienced with Diana 2, serial No. 3 VH-VHZ
>
> VHZ
>
> PS. Now I know what it means VH-VHZ...
> (Voodoo-Hunt -Victim Hana Zejdova)
>
> PSS. Sorry for my English....
>
> Tuno;680160 Wrote:
>
>
>
> > AK,
>
> > I understand your displeasure at the prospect of having a wing loading
> > disadvantage that you can do nothing about on a particular contest
> > day. But I do not understand your disagreement with the RC.
>
> > Yes a glider like the ASG-29/15M will have an advantage over the Diana
> > 2 on a non-ballast day. But that assumes the conditions will be good.
> > The Diana 2 will have the advantage when conditions are weak, and the
> > -29 pilot will not be able to do a darn thing about it. Both pilots
> > picked their gliders before the contest with the advance knowledge
> > that some days they'll have an edge, some days they won't. It is
> > unreasonable to expect rules (and RC) to come up with "fairness" in
> > these situations.
>
> > Quod erat demonstrandum. Go fly.
>
> > 2NO
>
> --
> VHZ

Please take your case to court and off public newsgroups. You will do
much better there. You can’t possibly dream to resolve your problems
here and if you want to educate us on Diana 2 you already did so. We
know everything by now.

[VHZ]

AK wrote:
--

Please take your case to court and off public newsgroups. You will do
much better there. You can’t possibly dream to resolve your problems
here and if you want to educate us on Diana 2 you already did so. We
know everything by now.[/QUOTE]

--------


VHZ answered:

Dear AK,

We know each other from past forums. Also from Polish gliding forum from where threads about Diana 2 VH-VHZ serial No.3 were cleared by admin. Simply with your suggestion to take this case to courtyou are sending me to jungle to claim there sunshine. Polish court will be only delay - not chance to dream about a rightness. You know about it more that any one else here...

I think that best court is public court. We are gliding community and not all of us are from past East bloc where justice is still long way from rightness. Have look your self. Polish proud is very strong and is very low chance, that a Polish court will (like) ever to confirm wrongs of a Polish designer, a Polish factory, a Polish technical control or a Polish test pilot, a Polish aviation authority..... (all of them are involved in this case) when this product is on level of Polish national proud and as a project is sponsored by Polish government.

Safe flying!

VHZ

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS. I just found out AK as author of this thread is planning to delete it from google group.
It is not surprising me.... Polish (and he is Polish living in USA) are not very happy to talk about theses production and producer's faults...
See below:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/msg/b99c78abde3087f3
groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/msg/b99c78abde3087f3


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at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/browse_thread/thread/be292f1cf534b8d0/b99c78abde3087f3?#b99c78abde3087f3
groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/browse_thread/thread/be292f1cf534b8d0/b99c78abde3087f3?#b99c78abde3087f3
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!