glider ride business - practical? bad idea?

[tienshanman]

What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your thoughts.

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

(For the USA)

As PIC, you'll need a Commercial Pilot Certificate, an endorsement in
your logbook for self-launch, and a current Flight Review. I bet
you've got these.

3 takeoffs and landings in glider category within the previous 90 days
to carry passengers.

Carrying passengers (or giving instruction) for hire in your aircraft
will now require a 100 hour inspection (airframe hours, not the
engine) for your motorglider as well as an Annual Inspection, although
if you time it right you can use the annual to restart your 100 hour
inspection clock, but not the other way around since a 100 hour can be
done by an A&P, but the annual must be done by an A&P with IA
(Inspection Authority.)

Next increase in your expenses will be insurance. Explain to your
broker what you plan to do with your motorglider and get a quote. Be
honest because you want complete coverage in case of an incident or
worse.

You may also need to get "premise insurance" to cover you if your ride
customers trip over a tiedown rope or gopher hole and injure
themselves somewhere on the airport. You are putting your personal
assets on the line when you carry passengers, especially for hire. I
use Costello Associates -- they are efficient and it is good to
support the SSA Group Insurance Plan. See the back cover of your
"Soaring" magazine. You are a member of the SSA, right?

So your business plan for giving rides will need to include the
slightly increased expenses for staying current, the 100 hour
inspections, advertising, signs, the extra insurance premium (if any),
and the cost of burp bags. See the April 2008 issue of "Soaring"
magazine for an article on "Giving A Better Glider Ride."

Build your fees based on your expenses, and then add in the "extra
cash" you hope to make. Crunching my numbers and to make a profit, I
must charge $119. for a 20 minute glider ride. You may be surprised
how much you have to charge, and be more surprised when folks
willingly hand over the cash for the unique experience.

Consider getting a credit card account, as folks will spend more using
the plastic.

Check with your state Sales Tax folks, and your local county or town
to register as a business. In some states, rides for recreation (not
for education) can be taxed.

Form a LLC or a Corporation for another layer of protection (but with
no guarantees.)

Some FAA regulations you need to be aware of:

91.111 No formation flight while carrying passenges for hire.

91.303 FAA's definition of aerobatics. It is NOT the 60 / 30 degree
rule - read carefully to the end of the paragraph - it can be a trap!

91 307 Parachutes required if you do the mildest aerobatics. This is
the 60 / 30 degree rule.

Check with your airport management on how they will view you now as a
Commercial / FBO offering rides for hire, rather than a private
citizen. If you do not talk to them in advance, then you may hear
from them when you put up your signs. Find out now how they will
regard you if you begin a Commercial operation, and if they demand
that you carry higher levels of liability insurance. I speak from
experience, from my early days operating a glider ride business in
Miami, Florida! That's part of the reason I moved to Marfa, Texas,
where the local government leaves you alone as long as you are safe.

Now think about how you are putting your assets on the line when you
hold yourself out to the public offering commercial glider rides.
Consider more preventative maintenance. Many of us give rides safely
and in compliance with the FAA rules and the Insurance Policy
requirements, but go into the enterprise with eyes wide open.

When you get up and running, list your business on the SSA website /
"Where To Fly" map.

You will enjoy sharing the flying experience with the public, and
making friends or future pilots.

Fly safe, do business "by the book", and good luck!

Burt
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, west Texas
(offering Glider Rides year-round)

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on the
side. He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who flies
for him when he can't be available. This man is not a member of SSA, nor
is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map of
places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.

At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. If you are
interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.



at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:
>
>What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
>motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
>a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
>larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
>thoughts.
>
>
>
>
>--
>tienshanman
>

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 5, 11:21*pm, tienshanman <tienshanman.
> wrote:
> What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
> motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
> a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
> larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
> thoughts.
>
> --
> tienshanman

I love these "toss them out questions" on r.a.s. with no information.
Assuming you are in the USA, assuming you have a commercial license
and own a type-certificated motor glider then Burt's post has lots of
great information. I'll focus on the motorglider stuff.

There are not a lot of two seat motorgliders around, it's either going
to be a Stemme or ASH-25Mi at the high-end, a Grob SL or one of many
lower (soaring) performance touring motorgliders like a Grob 109,
Katana etc. There may be significant issues depending on what
motorglider you are talking about. What exact motorglider do you have?
How much experience operating it do you have? Both to understand it's
performance, practical operating limitations and costs?

Where are you based? Is it a great soaring location? With fantastic
scenery and captive/close by potential customers? What mix of flights
do you hope to provide? Longer actual soaring flights or 30 minute
quick rides? Burt mentioned aerobatics (which I assume is popular with
ride passengers), you are more likely to be limited there with most
motorgliders.

I'm hoping you have a touring style motorglider, but the problem with
some motorgliders, especially the retracting mast type, will be that
you may quickly increase engine hours which (depending on the glider
and it's current condition) could significnalty depreciate the value
or the glider and significantly increase maintenance costs. Many of us
motorglider pilots think in the tens or so minute of engine time
giving many hours of soaring. Changing to a profile that is more climb
and sled ride would significantly change the cost basis.

What will that 20-30 minutes or more of engine tach time per flight
cost you in routine maitnence, depreciation and set aside for non-
routine maintenance? On the other hand there are always the
possibility of doing this seriously, being successful and subsidizing
(post tax) some flying.

Then there are the performance and practical limitations. Which
depending on the type and your experience would vary from non-issues
to extreme limitations. Many motorgliders are underpowered and
relatively heavy. Can you accommodate typical full weight adult
passengers? Can you achieve safe climb rates with this load under
typical density altitude conditions you will need to fly under? What
climb AGL do you expect to need? 4,000'? 6,0000'? Can you meet the
climb rate and profile on high density/high temperature (what about
engine cooling at that required climb performance)? Can you operate
the motorglider safely from your base without additional ground crew?
etc.

I would hope these are all obvious things to any motorglider pilot -
but completely non-obvious to average Joe passenger and we absolutely
need to operate with the paying public with a wide safety margin.
We've had some unfortunate accidents in joy rides that in hindsight
(yes, sorry everything is easy in hindsight) involved low pilot
experience or other risks that should not have been inflicted on
unsuspecting passengers. Adding a motorglider into the mix may
increases the risks, so some thought needs to be made about that and
how to mitigate/minimize any risk increase.

On the business side are you up for interruptions to your personal
schedule, being interrupted by phone calls or having to return calls,
willing to spend money on website and other advertising and run in the
red for a while to build any business? It just seems that this sort
of thing is not something you undertake lightly "for spare cash".

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

Use the Web Luke.

Google'ing "Maine glider ride" first hit is the company you mention.

http://www.spiritsoaring.org/

Seem pretty experienced folks and appear to be flying an Grob 109
touring motorglider.

There are other web site claiming to offer conventional glider rides
in Maine. Not sure why they would not want to be in the SSA index.

Darryl


On Feb 6, 8:00*am, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on the
> side. *He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who flies
> for him when he can't be available. *This man is not a member of SSA, nor
> is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map of
> places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
> advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.
>
> At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
> flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. *If you are
> interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.
>
> at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:
>
>
>
> >What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
> >motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
> >a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
> >larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
> >thoughts.
>
> >--
> >tienshanman
>
>

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

The tourist industry in Maine is probably where he gets all his business.
That being true, spending money with SSA probably seems not a good
investment from that point of view. I doubt that they have any interest
in anything except selling a unique experience (airplane flights around
the area would not be a draw). I'd guess they never fly except to carry
passengers.

Hardly a soaring activity -- no ridges or waves, and passengers don't
want a lot of circling, so thermalling is out. This appears to be
completely disconnected from the soaring community and its point of view.

They could very likely give good answers to all the business questions
Burt and others raise.


At 18:22 06 February 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>Use the Web Luke.
>
>Google'ing "Maine glider ride" first hit is the company you mention.
>
>http://www.spiritsoaring.org/
>
>Seem pretty experienced folks and appear to be flying an Grob 109
>touring motorglider.
>
>There are other web site claiming to offer conventional glider rides
>in Maine. Not sure why they would not want to be in the SSA index.
>
>Darryl
>
>
>On Feb 6, 8:00=A0am, Nyal Williams wrote:
>> There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on
>th=
>e
>> side. =A0He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who
>flies
>> for him when he can't be available. =A0This man is not a member of
SSA,
>n=
>or
>> is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map
of
>> places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
>> advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.
>>
>> At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
>> flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. =A0If you
are
>> interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.
>>
>> at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
>> >motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to
earn
>> >a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of
a
>> >larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
>> >thoughts.
>>
>> >--
>> >tienshanman
>>
>>
>
>

[Frank Whiteley]

On Feb 6, 11:22*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Use the Web Luke.
>
> Google'ing "Maine glider ride" first hit is the company you mention.
>
> http://www.spiritsoaring.org/
>
> Seem pretty experienced folks and appear to be flying an Grob 109
> touring motorglider.
>
> There are other web site claiming to offer conventional glider rides
> in Maine. Not sure why they would not want to be in the SSA index.
>
> Darryl
>
> On Feb 6, 8:00*am, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>
> > There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on the
> > side. *He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who flies
> > for him when he can't be available. *This man is not a member of SSA, nor
> > is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map of
> > places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
> > advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.
>
> > At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
> > flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. *If you are
> > interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.
>
> > at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:
>
> > >What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
> > >motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
> > >a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
> > >larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
> > >thoughts.
>
> > >--
> > >tienshanman

The glider ride biz owner was recently in Boulder looking for ride
pilots for next summer.

Frank

[bumper]

"tienshanman" > wrote in message
...
.. Currently I am thinking of
> moving to the People’s Republic of Boulder or the Ft. Collins, or
> buying property at a flight park somewhere; something along those lines
> (advice in terms of location would also be greatly appreciated). >
> --
> tienshanman

tienshanman

You really should check out Minden, NV if you love the mountains and superb
soaring conditions. Winters are relatively mild and year round outdoor
recreation opportunities abound. Can't think of a place I'd rather be.

Sam Whiteside, a glider pilot too, is the go-to guy for real estate info
here.

bumper
Minden, NV

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 7, 1:08*am, tienshanman <tienshanman.
> wrote:
> I must say that I am pleasantly stunned by the competent advice on this
> forum - thanks to all you for your thorough comments, especially Burt
> and Daryll. To Daryll I apologize for not offering more info about
> myself. I am a little bit embarrassed to admit that my soaring
> experience is, well, limited. Here’s the story if anyone is interested.
> I am a US citizen who has been living/working in Kazakhstan since 1995.
> Kind of got stuck here, married here to a beautiful Ukrainian woman and
> have 3 small children. We live just outside of Almaty (2 mill pop) in a
> small canyon in the Tien Shan Mountains. There are 10k ft peaks all
> around us and a vast wilderness area to the south. One reason I have
> stayed here so long is that I love being so close to big mountains and
> all of the outdoors sports possibilities they offer. I have worked here
> in telecoms and mining.
>
> Many years ago while in the Army in Germany I started hang gliding and
> have flown for a couple of decades, then I began in parallel to fly
> paragliders. However, the bag wing for me is more of a means to get
> down fast off of peaks rather than a flying machine. Sure, I thermal
> around in the thing for while when possible but compared to a hang
> glider or sailplane it never really felt like flying. On the contrary,
> it’s more akin to being in an aerial lawn chair. But heh, it gets me
> from the 3000 meter peak behind my house (3 hr ascent) to the field in
> front of my house in 20 min, which beats the hell out of walking down
> and trashing my knees. Throughout my flying “career” I have been
> peripherally interested in sailplanes. In Germany there is a glider
> club in practically every village and I can recall being in big
> thermals in the alps with hg’s, bag wings and several sailplanes all in
> one big gaggle like a flock of buzzards in Texas hovering over some road
> kill. Once in Austria on a gorgeous day in early June I counted 15
> different “aircraft” thermal ling at once and almost had a mid air
> collision with a baggy while counting. Every so often my interest in
> sailplanes would peak a bit and I would do a sailplane ride, but I was
> frankly not very impressed by being cooped up in a plastic solarium for
> 20 mins on a sled ride to the ground. Then I’d look around the airfields
> and the obvious hassle, time commitment, bureaucracy, *and expense all
> turned me off as well. I’m not much of a joiner and didn’t *care much
> for the European club thing.
>
> But I am older now and thought I’d give sailplanes one more shot. Among
> other considerations I need a safer way to fly. So last summer I spent 8
> days at a Russian glider school where 2 gnarly instructors in their 50s
> ran me through the ringer for 9 days, from 5 am to 10 pm every day,
> with about 15 flights/day. Endless landing patterns, spins, stalls,
> etc. On day 4 I soloed the Blanik and flew alone after that. Toward the
> end I was thermalling the thing around for 3 hrs at a shot and could
> have flown much longer had the bad seat and parachute ergonomics
> (military parachute!) not killed the small of my back! I Finally being
> able to soar a sailplane and stare straight up into an approaching
> cloud base turned out to be incredible and to make a long story short I
> am now officially addicted. Because I have started to fly sailplanes
> rather late in life I want to compress as much of it into my life as is
> possible. I am now trying to figure out how I can structure my life to
> make this happen. More than likely we will return to the US this summer
> and I have spent hours researching places to live which have the best
> combination of access to good flying, good schools, a critical mass of
> interesting people and culture and good weather. One thing I do not
> want to do is drive anything more that about 15 – 20 min to a glider
> field and I intend to buy a self launching glider if some sort. I have
> a lot of other sports interests and children so travelling big distance
> is out. So is being dependent on tow planes. Currently I am thinking of
> moving to the People’s Republic of Boulder or the Ft. Collins, or
> buying property at a flight park somewhere; something along those lines
> (advice in terms of location would also be greatly appreciated). Burt: I
> would be happy to live in Marfa but after a 12 drive through west Texas
> last year my wife ruled that idea out! So out of all of these
> ruminations emerged my off the wall question about glider rides. I had
> been simply thinking of options for how to integrate sailplanes into my
> life, perhaps even make small business out of it to give me that
> illusion that I would be gainfully employed. Burt’s comments brought me
> down to earth however, and it’s now clear that I am probably not suited
> to the commitment necessary for this business. Also, I am fairly set on
> buying a SL’ing glider and not a motorglider and it does not appear that
> a twin seat SL’ing sailplane is the best machine for that sort of
> business. So thanks again for putting up with my neophyte question and
> for the very good advice on this subject and perhaps I’ll have the
> pleasure of meeting some of you when I come back home. Burt I am dying
> to come to Marfa and fly there. My brother now lives in El Paso so that
> gives me the excuse to get there. In the meantime I am looking forward
> to going back to the Russian glider school in May for 9 more days of
> flying when I’ve been told I’ll get to practice out landings and do
> some modest cross country flights. I cannot wait.
>
> --
> tienshanman


So welcome to the addiction. Here are some things I'd encourage you to
do...

Work out where you are going to end up in the USA. Don't rush any
purchase decisions until you are settle in to that location and
establish contacts with the local soaring community.

For a while at least suspend belief in the need for a motorglider.
Especially since more often than not a motorglider is an impediment to
advancing XC soaring.

A really big help for you will be a local community of soaring pilots.
If you find them you will also find a tow plane. Hence the immediate
need for a motorglider should be small, and a motorglider may actually
isolate you from the close knit community and mentors etc. that will
help you advance in your XC soaring.

Suspend ideas about ride businesses etc. and focus on getting several
hundred hours of quality soaring experience under your belt first. (If
you are in a good location you can easily do that in the first year of
soaring. I flew 15,000km and a couple of hundred hours my first
year).

Find the local group of soaring pilots and find a mentor or two who
will help you out with cross country soaring. A mentor might be a
instructor or not. Ask around, ask recent successful XC pilots and
find who mentored them. The mentor ideally be one of the local "big
dogs" who does serious cross country flying (look on OLC and ask
around). But not all of those guys may make great mentors and beware
of "hangar fliers" who have lots of opinion but don't actually rack up
the miles.

Ideally join a club or rent time in a reasonable performance two
seater like a Duo Discus or DG-1000S and put in some serious cross
country in a dual place ship where you can really follow along the
thought process or the instructor/mentor. This is especially important
in places like the CO Rockies, Sierra Nevada or Great Basin -- because
those places can kill you more ways than you can probably imagine.

Get to the point of flying some high performance single seaters cross
country by yourself and lead/follow with your mentor. If all you have
flown is a Blanik and and say went off an brought a Stemme you will
have gone from a Volkswagon Beetle to a Mac truck and have missed the
Porsche Turbo handling of a 15m or 18m class glider. It would be a
shame to buy a Mac truck if what you really wanted was that Turbo but
never bothered to test drive one. You similarly might be completely
frustrated with a lower-end touring class motorglider with L/D of the
low-mid 30:1's if what you really wanted was an 18m ship with L/D ~
50:1 and an ability to stick the nose down and really go places fast.
You won't know until you've flown more types.

Note that some of the most accomplished XC mentors you will find may
be hesitant to do this mentoring in a dual motor glider. But there are
exceptions, and there are some instructors who do great mentoring in
dual-seat motorgliders. Often specializing in one particular model/
type - so that might be part of any purchase decision.

Realize there is nothing wrong with an approach where you buy a
standard class or 15m ship and fly that for a few years then look at
next steps. If you buy well this won't cost you much.

If you can't suspend belief in the desirability of a motorglider
start with looking at Eric Greenwell's "A Guide to Self Launch
Sailplane Operation" available from http://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications.

If you do want a motorglider before deciding what types to purchase
ask yourself who is going to, or going to help you, maintain it?
Maintenance is often a big issue with motorgliders, and so should be
near top of the list in any purchase decision. Also is there a strong
local (or at least online) user/owner community who can help you with
all the complexity etc. involved in owning, maintaining and operating
the motor glider. Oh yes, and get your check book out and be willing
to keep it out.


Darryl Ramm
ASH-26E Driver (but I fly real gliders as well).

[DRN]

On Feb 7, 4:08*am, tienshanman <tienshanman.
> wrote:
> I must say that I am pleasantly stunned by the competent advice on this
> forum - thanks to all you for your thorough comments, especially Burt
> and Daryll. To Daryll I apologize for not offering more info about
> myself. I am a little bit embarrassed to admit that my soaring
> experience is, well, limited. Here’s the story if anyone is interested.
> I am a US citizen who has been living/working in Kazakhstan since 1995.
> Kind of got stuck here, married here to a beautiful Ukrainian woman and
> have 3 small children. We live just outside of Almaty (2 mill pop) in a
> small canyon in the Tien Shan Mountains. There are 10k ft peaks all
> around us and a vast wilderness area to the south. One reason I have
> stayed here so long is that I love being so close to big mountains and
> all of the outdoors sports possibilities they offer. I have worked here
> in telecoms and mining.
>
> Many years ago while in the Army in Germany I started hang gliding and
> have flown for a couple of decades, then I began in parallel to fly
> paragliders. However, the bag wing for me is more of a means to get
> down fast off of peaks rather than a flying machine. Sure, I thermal
> around in the thing for while when possible but compared to a hang
> glider or sailplane it never really felt like flying. On the contrary,
> it’s more akin to being in an aerial lawn chair. But heh, it gets me
> from the 3000 meter peak behind my house (3 hr ascent) to the field in
> front of my house in 20 min, which beats the hell out of walking down
> and trashing my knees. Throughout my flying “career” I have been
> peripherally interested in sailplanes. In Germany there is a glider
> club in practically every village and I can recall being in big
> thermals in the alps with hg’s, bag wings and several sailplanes all in
> one big gaggle like a flock of buzzards in Texas hovering over some road
> kill. Once in Austria on a gorgeous day in early June I counted 15
> different “aircraft” thermal ling at once and almost had a mid air
> collision with a baggy while counting. Every so often my interest in
> sailplanes would peak a bit and I would do a sailplane ride, but I was
> frankly not very impressed by being cooped up in a plastic solarium for
> 20 mins on a sled ride to the ground. Then I’d look around the airfields
> and the obvious hassle, time commitment, bureaucracy, *and expense all
> turned me off as well. I’m not much of a joiner and didn’t *care much
> for the European club thing.
>
> But I am older now and thought I’d give sailplanes one more shot. Among
> other considerations I need a safer way to fly. So last summer I spent 8
> days at a Russian glider school where 2 gnarly instructors in their 50s
> ran me through the ringer for 9 days, from 5 am to 10 pm every day,
> with about 15 flights/day. Endless landing patterns, spins, stalls,
> etc. On day 4 I soloed the Blanik and flew alone after that. Toward the
> end I was thermalling the thing around for 3 hrs at a shot and could
> have flown much longer had the bad seat and parachute ergonomics
> (military parachute!) not killed the small of my back! I Finally being
> able to soar a sailplane and stare straight up into an approaching
> cloud base turned out to be incredible and to make a long story short I
> am now officially addicted. Because I have started to fly sailplanes
> rather late in life I want to compress as much of it into my life as is
> possible. I am now trying to figure out how I can structure my life to
> make this happen. More than likely we will return to the US this summer
> and I have spent hours researching places to live which have the best
> combination of access to good flying, good schools, a critical mass of
> interesting people and culture and good weather. One thing I do not
> want to do is drive anything more that about 15 – 20 min to a glider
> field and I intend to buy a self launching glider if some sort. I have
> a lot of other sports interests and children so travelling big distance
> is out. So is being dependent on tow planes. Currently I am thinking of
> moving to the People’s Republic of Boulder or the Ft. Collins, or
> buying property at a flight park somewhere; something along those lines
> (advice in terms of location would also be greatly appreciated). Burt: I
> would be happy to live in Marfa but after a 12 drive through west Texas
> last year my wife ruled that idea out! So out of all of these
> ruminations emerged my off the wall question about glider rides. I had
> been simply thinking of options for how to integrate sailplanes into my
> life, perhaps even make small business out of it to give me that
> illusion that I would be gainfully employed. Burt’s comments brought me
> down to earth however, and it’s now clear that I am probably not suited
> to the commitment necessary for this business. Also, I am fairly set on
> buying a SL’ing glider and not a motorglider and it does not appear that
> a twin seat SL’ing sailplane is the best machine for that sort of
> business. So thanks again for putting up with my neophyte question and
> for the very good advice on this subject and perhaps I’ll have the
> pleasure of meeting some of you when I come back home. Burt I am dying
> to come to Marfa and fly there. My brother now lives in El Paso so that
> gives me the excuse to get there. In the meantime I am looking forward
> to going back to the Russian glider school in May for 9 more days of
> flying when I’ve been told I’ll get to practice out landings and do
> some modest cross country flights. I cannot wait.
>
> --
> tienshanman

Clearly you need an Antares 20E !
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
www.nadler.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 7, 5:14*pm, DRN > wrote:
[snip]
> Clearly you need an Antares 20E !
> Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"www.nadler.com

Certainly meets the "get your check book out" bit ;-)


Darryl

[bumper]

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...

Get to the point of flying some high performance single seaters cross
country by yourself and lead/follow with your mentor. If all you have
flown is a Blanik and and say went off an brought a Stemme you will
have gone from a Volkswagon Beetle to a Mac truck and have missed the
Porsche Turbo handling of a 15m or 18m class glider. It would be a
shame to buy a Mac truck if what you really wanted was that Turbo but
never bothered to test drive one. You similarly might be completely
frustrated with a lower-end touring class motorglider with L/D of the
low-mid 30:1's if what you really wanted was an 18m ship with L/D ~
50:1 and an ability to stick the nose down and really go places fast.
You won't know until you've flown more types.

Darryl Ramm
ASH-26E Driver (but I fly real gliders as well)."

I agree with Darryl, save for the Mack truck reference in the above snippet.
Like Darryl, I own an ASH-26E, and before that a Stemme S10-VT. If the 26E
be a sports car (and it is), then the Stemme is a luxury performance sedan.
Sure the Stemme is heavier in aileron response and slower in roll, as you'd
expect from a big span two place ship. While not spritely in roll, the
Stemme makes up with stellar climb and cruise performance under power, far
in excess of any other two-place motor glider of similar L/D I'm aware of.
Turbocharged and intercooled, it'll keep right on briskly climbing to the
flight levels if that's your pleasure (makes saw-tooth a breeze). It will
stow in a T-hangar, power cruise at 125+ knots, taxi out and launch in 35
knot winds in conditions that would see a regular glider packed away in its
box. It can also operate out of busy towered airports where a more
conventional glider would be unwelcome. Other adjectives come to mind, none
involve trucks.

Darryl's right in that it's hard, maybe near impossible, to make a go of a
ride business using a high performance motorglider such as the Stemme. I
know of three who've tried.

bumper
Minden, NV
Purveyor of Quiet Vents ($6) and MKIII "high tech" Yaw Strings ($10) to the
unwashed masses.
In the spirit of non-partisanship, I'll also sell them to clean masses - -
same price.

[DRN]

On Feb 7, 10:18*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 5:14*pm, DRN > wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > Clearly you need an Antares 20E !
> > Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"www.nadler.com
>
> Certainly meets the "get your check book out" bit ;-)
>
> Darryl

Also easiest to operate with single power-lever, and
fabulous handling makes it very easy to fly...
A lot more forgiving and less fuss than other
motor-gliders !

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[bumper]

Dave,

Also easiest to operate with single power-lever, and
fabulous handling makes it very easy to fly...
A lot more forgiving and less fuss than other
motor-gliders !

See ya, Dave "YO electric"


,

The Antares is impressive in looks, performance, and especially in
engineering . . .

But in a glider ride business scenario, how many customers could you take up
to 3,000+ feet in a row on a no-lift day? Or to 1.5K on a day with good
lift? Wouldn't the need to charge batteries be a hassle in that application?

bumper

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 8, 9:08*am, "bumper" > wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Also easiest to operate with single power-lever, and
> fabulous handling makes it very easy to fly...
> A lot more forgiving and less fuss than other
> motor-gliders !
>
> See ya, Dave "YO electric"
>
> ,
>
> The Antares is impressive in looks, performance, and especially in
> engineering . . .
>
> But in a glider ride business scenario, how many customers could you take up
> to 3,000+ feet in a row on a no-lift day? Or to 1.5K on a day with good
> lift? Wouldn't the need to charge batteries be a hassle in that application?
>
> bumper

Ah Bumper, I think the single seat might be more of an issue. I don't
think Dave was advocating the 20E for a ride business, just a a
motorglider to purchase.

But then I'm amused by talking to talk to ride operators and hear
about passengers with no flight experience arriving thinking *they*
are going to fly the glider by themselves, maybe take the girlfriend
up for a quick flight. Yes this really happens.

Darryl

[bumper]

"Darryl Ramm" <
Ah Bumper, I think the single seat might be more of an issue. I don't
think Dave was advocating the 20E for a ride business, just a a
motorglider to purchase.

But then I'm amused by talking to talk to ride operators and hear
about passengers with no flight experience arriving thinking *they*
are going to fly the glider by themselves, maybe take the girlfriend
up for a quick flight. Yes this really happens.

Darryl


Dammit! I just hate it when the brain cell that dies is the one I happen to
be using at the moment.

Somewhere in the back of my feeble old mind I just knew it was a single
seater!

bumper
QV 'n MKIII - - the best, cheapest toys you can by for your glider on its
birthday.

[[email protected]]

This is an entertaining thread! Right down my alley, been in the ride
business now for 40+ years. Switched from mutiple gliders and
towplanes to one selflauncher 16 years ago, then a Grob Twin IIISL.
There were several reasons:
semi retirement, airport parking- taxiing, pilots etc. Self launching
is the future! I am always wondering why not more com operators do
more of it or convert. Most likely cost.
As for the US-Russian, he has logical ideas, also a big family. Busy
guy! Good training there with the Russians!
He might not want to rush into things, might end up going back to that
Mtn valley in Russia. Lots of rich Russians now that might want to
pick up Soaring fast for money, rather than clubs.

It takes a resort nearby to have a good ride business, possibly an
interstate highway, but a resort is better. Yeah and defenitely a two
seater! Bumper, you are not the only one. But of course there are com
operators that also into teaching and rentals. For that the Antares
might work? One could go on and on!

Think Up!

Soarski

[tienshanman]

Bumper - I've contacted Sam as you suggested and hope to have a tel talk with him this week. I'm planning a road trip to the US this summer to find a home and have already started prepping my wife for a thorough look at the Tahoe area. That will be the kicker; she thinks we're going to live in or near a big city! I've explained to her that American cities are full of roving gangs and involve a sort of Mad Max II lifestyle. On the serious side I did read a rather bad report of teenage meth use in the Carson Valley area. That's disturbing. See, here in Kazakhstan anybody with something like a meth lab is simply executed, end of story, problem over. Trial lasts about 2 hrs. I sort of like that. Thanks for letting me know about Sam.

[tienshanman]

This is an entertaining thread! Right down my alley, been in the ride
business now for 40+ years. Switched from mutiple gliders and
towplanes to one selflauncher 16 years ago, then a Grob Twin IIISL.
There were several reasons:
semi retirement, airport parking- taxiing, pilots etc. Self launching
is the future! I am always wondering why not more com operators do
more of it or convert. Most likely cost.
As for the US-Russian, he has logical ideas, also a big family. Busy
guy! Good training there with the Russians!
He might not want to rush into things, might end up going back to that
Mtn valley in Russia. Lots of rich Russians now that might want to
pick up Soaring fast for money, rather than clubs.

It takes a resort nearby to have a good ride business, possibly an
interstate highway, but a resort is better. Yeah and defenitely a two
seater! Bumper, you are not the only one. But of course there are com
operators that also into teaching and rentals. For that the Antares
might work? One could go on and on!

Think Up!

Soarski

Soarski, I am actually in Kazakhstan. But since it was a colony in the Russian and then the Soviet Empire for so long many of the same traits apply. Russians, having only recently become affluent, are still in a rather immature phase of capitalism: huge, ostentatious houses, Porsche Carreras, Land Rovers, peroxide girlfriends half their ages with beauty shelf lives of about 5 years, vacations at the usual expensive but tired Euro hotspots. Ok, some rich Russians are into aviation but only very few and they are into flashing expensive aircraft. Virtually, no one here even understands what a sailplane it much less has a desire to fly one. Soaring is far too esoteric for their current stage of development. I don’t think there’s much of an immediate future for soaring here. The people keeping the sport alive are virtually destitute and doing it out of shear enthusiasm. They are keeping their old fleets of Wilga tow planes and Blaniks alive by cannibalism and duct tape! At the Fall of the USSR out of shear desperation many Clubs sold off their higher performance ships to european scavengers. Now they regret it. There used to be 5 state funded clubs in Kaz, now there is one and it will die when the 2 - 3 aging instructors bite the dust.

[bumper]

"tienshanman" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's disturbing. See,
> here in Kazakhstan anybody with something like a meth lab is simply
> executed, end of story, problem over. Trial lasts about 2 hrs. I sort
> of like that. Thanks for letting me know about Sam.
>
> --
> tienshanman

Tienshanman,

As a former cop, I like the "get tough on crime" approach too! And while the
criminal justice system in the US may not be as quick and decisive as it is
in Kazakhstan, compared to much of the US, Nevada comes down hard on bad
guys.

I moved to Minden, NV about 6 years ago from just north of San Francisco.
One of the things you may notice about more rural areas, such as the Carson
Valley, is that folks seem less harried and overall friendlier than those
who live in crowded conditions. You'll also notice there are a lot more
gliders here than in the big city!

bumper

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 17:51 09 February 2009, bumper wrote:
>
>I moved to Minden, NV about 6 years ago from just north of San Francisco.

>One of the things you may notice about more rural areas, such as the
>Carson
>Valley, is that folks seem less harried and overall friendlier than those

>who live in crowded conditions.

Especially those girls that live out there in the desert in those places
that look like isolated motels. Really nice folks. Didn't one of those
places used to have it's own airstrip? Might be a great place to fly
gliders out of. Maybe even host a Regional Comp there.

Jim Beckman

[Tech Support]

Is that the place the Government took over and went broke trying to
run :o)

Big John

************************************************** ******



On 10 Feb 2009 14:00:07 GMT, Jim Beckman >
wrote:

>At 17:51 09 February 2009, bumper wrote:
>>
>>I moved to Minden, NV about 6 years ago from just north of San Francisco.
>
>>One of the things you may notice about more rural areas, such as the
>>Carson
>>Valley, is that folks seem less harried and overall friendlier than those
>
>>who live in crowded conditions.
>
>Especially those girls that live out there in the desert in those places
>that look like isolated motels. Really nice folks. Didn't one of those
>places used to have it's own airstrip? Might be a great place to fly
>gliders out of. Maybe even host a Regional Comp there.
>
>Jim Beckman

[TonyV[_2_]]

> Especially those girls that live out there in the desert in those places
> that look like isolated motels. Really nice folks. Didn't one of those
> places used to have it's own airstrip?

Didn't Pez land out there one time? One of the ladies said that she'd
tow him for $50 - or something that sounded like that.

Tony V.