Aviation Sheetmetal Work

[[email protected]]

To All:

Guy calls, wants to buy my metal brake & sheet metal tools. Left
unsaid is WHY someone you don't even know would call you up out of the
blue and want to buy some tools which, in a couple of cases belonged
to my grandfather, my dad, and my brother.

The WHY? Because I've been diagnosed with cancer. With multiple
myeloma.

But I can't sell my tools, firstly because they're already promised to
my son. But more importantly because I'd just have to buy all new
stuff WHEN I LICK THIS DAMNED CANCER!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, so it really isn't something that's worth the trouble to tell
all you guys about it. But I did mention it to a couple of friends.
One of them said he could understand the guy's point of view. Not
about the cancer but about buying the tools. Way back when, one
reason he bought a set of plans for the Fly Baby was because he didn't
have any metal-working experience at all, whereas the Fly Baby was
advertised as an ALL WOOD design.

You already know the punch-line, right? :-)
(There's no such thing as an 'All Wood' design. EVERY homebuilt, be it
wood, composite or metal, requires some skill in those other areas as
well.)

Buying a book on BASIC aviation metal-smithing isn't a lot of help
because they start-out pretty far along the learning curve. And if
you're out there by yourself -- no local Chapter to rely on -- you may
have a hell of a time learning how to bend tin.

So don't. Bend tin. Or roof flashing... or whatever else you're
using as your basic How-To material. Bend CARDBOARD instead. No, not
corrugated cardboard; something like a cereal box. You can draw the
part on the cardboard then bend it in your vise. Once you've mastered
the basic idea you can drop by the Borg and pick up some galvanized
sheet metal, roof flashing or what-have-you and TRANSFER your skills
to real metal. (The biggest difference is in the CUTTING and how you
DRESS the edges.)

You probably won't believe it but a good bench vise, one with
auxiliary jaws (ie, smooth metal jaws that fit over the regular jaws)
can handle about 90% of the bending chores in the typical "all wood"
design.

Need to make a LONGER bend? Then go back to the Borg and pick up a
piece of ANGLE IRON (or even TWO pieces if one isn't long enough).
Drill some counter-sunk holes in the angle iron and fasten it to the
edge of your work bench. Use... something.. another piece of angle
iron or just a piece of flat steel... to CLAMP the metal you want to
bend, to the angle iron you've bolted to the work bench. Now BEND the
metal by GENTLY tapping on it with a mallet. Thin metal, you need to
go over it a dozen times or more; thicker metal, you'll need to go
over it a LOT more times... mebbe a hundred. The idea here is to
DISTRIBUTE the energy of the hammer's blow so as not to WRINKLE the
metal. To do that you have to learn how to overlap your blows,
working your way over the metal again and again, SLOWLY folding it
over the angle iron 'edge' you've fastened to your workbench.

You won't believe it but you can produce a flanged wing-spar in forty-
thou 2024-T3 that is JUST AS GOOD as anything made with a metal
brake. What's the secret? Practice.

In the same vein, buying a lot of metal-working tools doesn't mean
you'll be turning out usable parts. Before that can happen you'll
have to learn how to USE those tools. A work bench with a metal edge
IS a 'metal brake' ('Brake' is an archaic term for vise or clamp.) So
instead of day-dreaming about a 48" metal brake from Harbor Freight
that you'll probably never buy anyway, why not pick up a piece of
angle iron and start LEARNING how to do metal-work. Seriously; it
doesn't cost very much and once you learn to 'hammer-fold' a piece of
metal, you'll never forget it -- You will have acquired a LIFE-TIME
skill. Which is better than coming down with a dose of cancer any
day :-)

-R.S.Hoover

PS -- I haven't mentioned spring-back or a lot of other stuff you'll
have to learn before you can can bend your Fly Baby hinges in your
vise. When you get that far along, ask. There's lots of good tin-
benders in this Newsgroup who'll be more than happy to help you.

[Brian Whatcott]

wrote:
>... buying a lot of metal-working tools doesn't mean
> you'll be turning out usable parts. ... So
> instead of day-dreaming about a 48" metal brake from Harbor Freight
> that you'll probably never buy anyway, why not pick up a piece of
> angle iron and start LEARNING how to do metal-work....

> -R.S.Hoover


There is another outcome possible at Harbor Freight - other than the
day-dream ending. Like me, you may BUY a tool.
I am thinking of the tube bender I bought. I KNEW that the usual tube
bender that features a ram pushing a forming tool against a pipe while
two side rollers hold it in place - is a disaster - it is about
guaranteed to collapse the wall unless the tube is loaded with sand,
ice, eutectic - whatever. So I bought the BETTER type tube bender on
sale. This has a roller that pulls the tube round a die - this
provides the motivation to stretch the tube wall on the outside, rather
than ripple the tube wall on the inside of the turn.

So fine: I bought it, and I bought a tube drilling jig, to make those
nicely fitted tube joints at 90deg, 45 deg etc....and plenty of other
things too.

What's wrong with that? I haven't used these tools at all. Not once.
And now I covet a machine lathe too (there could hardly be a more
bargain deal for $400 after all). Trouble is, Momma would have
conniptions if I put it in my study, and I would not dream of putting a
machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
layer of rust.
That would about break my heart.....

Brian W

[[email protected]]

On Feb 15, 7:55*am, Brian Whatcott > wrote:
> I bought a tube drilling jig, to make those
> nicely fitted tube joints at 90deg, 45 deg etc....and plenty of other
> things too.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny(?) Story:
Until Harbor Freight came along I've seen tube-drilling jigs in use
perhaps half a dozen times in my life. All but one of those times was
at the shop of a sub-contractor and the tube-drilling jig was usually
home-made. AFTER Harbor Freight came along I've guess I've seen a
dozen or more of the HF tool, always rigged to a DRILL PRESS.

The funny part of this tale is that, until the Harbor Freight drill-
jig came along, the drill-jig was ALWAYS fastened to one corner of a
WORK TABLE, providing room to support the tubing, which on the first
cut, could be up to twenty feet long. Power was provided by a 1/2"
drill-motor.

Personally, I've got four or five round files from 3/8th to 3/4", all
that's needed to put a fish-mouth on a piece of tubing that is going
to be welded. (You can cut a large fish-mouth with a file of smaller
diameter.)

The tricky bit in hand-filing a fish-mouth is HOLDING the tubing so
that the fish-mouth is perfectly aligned with the fish-mouth on the
OPPOSITE end of the tube. The holders are hunks of MAPLE, drilled to
match the diameter of the tube. This allows the piece of tubing to be
held in a vise and adjusted so as to facilitate the filing, which is
always done two-handed with the file perfectly level (or nearly so).
A machinist's protractor is used to verify the position of the
tubing. Snips or an angle-head grinder is used to notch the fish-
mount, reducing the amount of filing needed. A short piece of tubing
matching the size of the fish-mouth is used as a gauge.

As-received tubing is usually oily. The oil is removed to ensure the
clamps can get a grip. When the clamps can no longer get a grip you
can 'tighten' them by pressing them against a disk sander for a
moment. You may also add rosin to the tubing groove.

The sides of most fuselages fabricated from welded steel tubing are
identical, allowing you to cut TWO pieces. The longerons are
typically supported on two to four saw-horses and the side pieces (ie,
vertical & diagonal tubes) are tack-welded as soon as the tube(s) are
cut. The pieces for the top & bottom may not be symmetrical so that
tacking only one at a time (ie, either the top or the bottom) is
usually the most practical method. Once all of the structural member
for the fuselage have been fitted and tack-welded, you will probably
find it more convenient to support the fuselage in a rotisserie,
allowing you to ROLL the fuselage as you finish-weld the tacked
joints. Using only the tools described here it takes 35 to 40 man-
hours to put the typical fuselage on its gear. Then comes all the
fiddley bits; tabs for fasteners; fuel tank supports, controls and so
forth... which can take an additional 100 hours or more (!!).

Oddly enough, when you see an ad for an AIRCRAFT WELDER, odds are
they don't want someone who only experience is fuselage structures.
What they usually want is someone experienced (usually certified) in
welding aluminum, monel and so forth. (As a point of interest, the
last time I checked [1970's] there were more than a hundred
certificates that applied to AVIATION/AERO-SPACE welding. If you
have a lot of experience (and the certificates to go with it) some
companies will hire you as a 'weldor under instruction' giving you 90
days (or whatever) to gain the experience needed to pass the
certification test needed for their particular application.

Of course, that was then. Nowadays you'll find it kinda hard to
compete with a fully certified Chinese weldor pulling down $17 per
week... (They save so much on LABOR they can afford to have the
parts FLOWN from China to the USA)

On larger diameter tubing having a heavier wall, an angle-head
GRINDER is usually more convenient than filing, especially if you have
that program (WINTUBE ?) that prints out a pattern of the cut after
you enter the diameter of the tubing, the angle of it's intersection,
and the diameter of the tube it's supposed to mate with. (This is
very handy for fabricating roll-cages and the like for vehicles that
operate off pavement.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I would not dream of putting a
> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
> layer of rust.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
unpainted surface.

-Bob

PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
cans... or use an air-brush.

[Brian Whatcott]

wrote:

>> I would not dream of putting a
>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>> layer of rust.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
> pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
> then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
> unpainted surface.
>
> -Bob
>
> PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
> cans... or use an air-brush.
>

Flit-gun? THAT takes me back! I will admit to considering a 10 oz duck
cover and a 40 watt lamp under it.... Say kerosene and I think WD-40
of course - but I keep reminding myself - a corrosion preventative that
sets waxy, like BoeShield T-6 aerosol would be better.

Which reminds me: in the long, long-ago there was an auto chassis
treatment (back when cars had chassis). The kit was a bottle of wax
dissolved in a solvent and a Flit-gun. Worked like a champ.

(I later verified you can dissolve grated candlewax in most any
petrochemical like kerosene, gasoline, diesel oil, lamp oil whatever, if
you first WARMED the oil.)

Brian W

[Peter Dohm]

"Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>>> I would not dream of putting a
>>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>>> layer of rust.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
>> pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
>> then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
>> unpainted surface.
>>
>> -Bob
>>
>> PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
>> cans... or use an air-brush.
>>
>
> Flit-gun? THAT takes me back! I will admit to considering a 10 oz duck
> cover and a 40 watt lamp under it.... Say kerosene and I think WD-40 of
> course - but I keep reminding myself - a corrosion preventative that sets
> waxy, like BoeShield T-6 aerosol would be better.
>
> Which reminds me: in the long, long-ago there was an auto chassis
> treatment (back when cars had chassis). The kit was a bottle of wax
> dissolved in a solvent and a Flit-gun. Worked like a champ.
>
> (I later verified you can dissolve grated candlewax in most any
> petrochemical like kerosene, gasoline, diesel oil, lamp oil whatever, if
> you first WARMED the oil.)
>
> Brian W

You might also try LPS-3, if I recall correctly--or was it LPS-2. In any
case, I believe that the one that gets waxy is also fairly popular for
spraying in pick-up truck beds before istalling a bed-liner.

Peter

[cavelamb[_2_]]

Peter Dohm wrote:
> "Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I would not dream of putting a
>>>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>>>> layer of rust.
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
>>> pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
>>> then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
>>> unpainted surface.
>>>
>>> -Bob
>>>
>>> PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
>>> cans... or use an air-brush.
>>>
>> Flit-gun? THAT takes me back! I will admit to considering a 10 oz duck
>> cover and a 40 watt lamp under it.... Say kerosene and I think WD-40 of
>> course - but I keep reminding myself - a corrosion preventative that sets
>> waxy, like BoeShield T-6 aerosol would be better.
>>
>> Which reminds me: in the long, long-ago there was an auto chassis
>> treatment (back when cars had chassis). The kit was a bottle of wax
>> dissolved in a solvent and a Flit-gun. Worked like a champ.
>>
>> (I later verified you can dissolve grated candlewax in most any
>> petrochemical like kerosene, gasoline, diesel oil, lamp oil whatever, if
>> you first WARMED the oil.)
>>
>> Brian W
>
> You might also try LPS-3, if I recall correctly--or was it LPS-2. In any
> case, I believe that the one that gets waxy is also fairly popular for
> spraying in pick-up truck beds before istalling a bed-liner.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
That's LPS-3. But I can't find it anywhere locally.

[flash]

"Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>>> I would not dream of putting a
>>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>>> layer of rust.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
>> pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
>> then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
>> unpainted surface.
>>
>> -Bob
>>

>
> Which reminds me: in the long, long-ago there was an auto chassis
> treatment (back when cars had chassis). The kit was a bottle of wax
> dissolved in a solvent and a Flit-gun. Worked like a champ.
>
> (I later verified you can dissolve grated candlewax in most any
> petrochemical like kerosene, gasoline, diesel oil, lamp oil whatever, if
> you first WARMED the oil.)
>
> Brian W


Back in the middle of the last century, we doped dry-flies in - hold on for
this one -- << Ronsonol lighter fluid with parafin household wax dissolved
in it>> . Hey, it worked.

Flash

[vaughn]

> wrote in message
...
>So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
>pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
>then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
>unpainted surface.

I would buy a few oz. of kero and an old paintbrush, but if you really want
to spray, buy a Preval for about five bucks. Google for suppliers like
this:
http://store.fastcommerce.com/cat_PaintProsUSA_ff80808117344aab01175581fc276445. html?gclid=CLfhgOKm4ZgCFQIfswodKkp9bQ
or visit any automotive paint store.

Vaughn

[RST Engineering]

What would be wrong with a new insecticide hand-pump sprayer? Most all home
improvement stores carry them in the garden section.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle


-Bob

PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
cans... or use an air-brush.

[Stuart Fields]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
m...
> What would be wrong with a new insecticide hand-pump sprayer? Most all
> home improvement stores carry them in the garden section.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
> without accepting it."
> --Aristotle
>
>
> -Bob
>
> PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
> cans... or use an air-brush.

Second to Jim. Zemlock helicopters at Chino showed me one of those
Insecticide sprayers used to clean up his D model Bell 47, which if they
could ever find a crop that could use engine oil, would find it's niche. No
spray booms required. The sprayer worked like it was designed for the task.

stu

[[email protected]]

On Feb 15, 4:34*pm, Brian Whatcott > wrote:
> . . . a corrosion preventative that
> sets waxy, like BoeShield T-6 aerosol would be better.

Veeduber had it right. With the kerosene, you take the canvas off, use
the lathe, sweep up the chips and cover it again. With the waxy stuff,
you must remove it from any working surfaces before you can use the
lathe. It's formulated to be difficult to remove. You'll end up not
using the lathe for small jobs.

Rich S.

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>>> I would not dream of putting a
>>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>>> layer of rust.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
>> pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
>> then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
>> unpainted surface.
>>
>> -Bob
>>
>> PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
>> cans... or use an air-brush.
>>
>
> Flit-gun? THAT takes me back! I will admit to considering a 10 oz duck
> cover and a 40 watt lamp under it.... Say kerosene and I think WD-40 of
> course - but I keep reminding myself - a corrosion preventative that sets
> waxy, like BoeShield T-6 aerosol would be better.
>
> Which reminds me: in the long, long-ago there was an auto chassis
> treatment (back when cars had chassis). The kit was a bottle of wax
> dissolved in a solvent and a Flit-gun. Worked like a champ.
>
> (I later verified you can dissolve grated candlewax in most any
> petrochemical like kerosene, gasoline, diesel oil, lamp oil whatever, if
> you first WARMED the oil.)
>
> Brian W

WD-40 only works well if something has become wet, it will displace the
water and cause it to shed. It's a water displacement agent, and doesn't
protect long as a rust preventative.

Kerosene works well, depending on how often the machine is used. But you can
greatly extend it's effectiveness by adding a percentage of oil to suit you
needs. Although most effective, adding wax would probably leave a film that
would have to be removed before each use.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Stuart Fields" > wrote

> Second to Jim. Zemlock helicopters at Chino showed me one of those
> Insecticide sprayers used to clean up his D model Bell 47, which if they
> could ever find a crop that could use engine oil, would find it's niche.
> No spray booms required. The sprayer worked like it was designed for the
> task.

Actually, many (most) garden sprayers will not last long using any
petro-chemicals. You can get one from a concrete supply company that is
designed to spray concrete post treatment, that is petrochemical proof, or
find a sprayer for treating decks with waterproofing at a lumber supply
house.
--
Jim in NC

[Brian Whatcott]

wrote:
> On Feb 15, 4:34 pm, Brian Whatcott > wrote:
>> . . . a corrosion preventative that
>> sets waxy, like BoeShield T-6 aerosol would be better.
>
> Veeduber had it right. With the kerosene, you take the canvas off, use
> the lathe, sweep up the chips and cover it again. With the waxy stuff,
> you must remove it from any working surfaces before you can use the
> lathe. It's formulated to be difficult to remove. You'll end up not
> using the lathe for small jobs.
>
> Rich S.

I understand this objection. But I have an objection to WD-40 or
straight kerosene. It evaporates. Then here comes the FeO2

(At least, that's what I have in mind - I would be pleased to hear I'm
wrong on this one...)

Brian W

[Brian Whatcott]

Maxwell wrote:

> Kerosene works well, depending on how often the machine is used. But you can
> greatly extend it's effectiveness by adding a percentage of oil to suit you
> needs. Although most effective, adding wax would probably leave a film that
> would have to be removed before each use.
>


I went looking for Boeshield T-6 or LP-3 in town today. No joy. But I did
find silicone sprays which I don't like, and this aerosol from 3M called
"5-WAY". The label says aliphatic hydrocarbon (which I assume is
kerosene), petrolatum and heavy parrafinic oil. It says it leaves a
sticky surface. That's better than nothing.....

Brian W

[[email protected]]

On Feb 16, 3:00*pm, Brian Whatcott > wrote:
It says it leaves a
> sticky surface. That's better than nothing.....
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of the comments are coming from people who have never used
kerosene & a flit-gun to protect their machine tools. I suggest you
try it before wandering off in all directions. Kerosene is called
'paraffin oil' for a pretty good reason: As the kerosene evaporates
it leaves behind a layer of WAX. It is the layer of wax that protects
the surfaces of your machine tools. Cleaning it up is no problem.
Simply re-spray and wipe it off.

Some times the 'old ways' are best. I think you'll find this is one
of those times.

-R.S.Hoover

[Peter Dohm]

"Bryan Martin" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> cavelamb > wrote:
>
>> Peter Dohm wrote:
>> > "Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> I would not dream of putting a
>> >>>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>> >>>> layer of rust.
>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > You might also try LPS-3, if I recall correctly--or was it LPS-2. In
>> > any
>> > case, I believe that the one that gets waxy is also fairly popular for
>> > spraying in pick-up truck beds before istalling a bed-liner.
>> >
>> > Peter
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> That's LPS-3. But I can't find it anywhere locally.
>
>
> There's also a product called Dow Corning (or Molykote) metal protective
> coating. It's an organic wax dissolved in a solvent in an aerosol can.
> It seems to only be available from industrial supply companies. I did
> find a place to order it online but they only sell case lots.
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive.

LPS-3 seems to be available from various sources on line as well--and in
container sizes up to a gallon. But I don't know of any place to just pick
it up on my way home.

Peter

[Anthony W]

Brian Whatcott wrote:

> I understand this objection. But I have an objection to WD-40 or
> straight kerosene. It evaporates. Then here comes the FeO2
>
> (At least, that's what I have in mind - I would be pleased to hear I'm
> wrong on this one...)
>
> Brian W

Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. You will
be amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.

Tony

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Anthony W" > wrote in message
...
> Brian Whatcott wrote:
>
>> I understand this objection. But I have an objection to WD-40 or straight
>> kerosene. It evaporates. Then here comes the FeO2
>>
>> (At least, that's what I have in mind - I would be pleased to hear I'm
>> wrong on this one...)
>>
>> Brian W
>
> Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. You will be
> amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.

And if there is paint on the machine that is not bake on, epoxy, or powder
coat, it can also remove the paint.
--
Jim in NC

[Dan[_12_]]

Brian Whatcott wrote:
> wrote:
>> ... buying a lot of metal-working tools doesn't mean
>> you'll be turning out usable parts. ... So
>> instead of day-dreaming about a 48" metal brake from Harbor Freight
>> that you'll probably never buy anyway, why not pick up a piece of
>> angle iron and start LEARNING how to do metal-work....
>
>> -R.S.Hoover
>
>
> There is another outcome possible at Harbor Freight - other than the
> day-dream ending. Like me, you may BUY a tool.
> I am thinking of the tube bender I bought. I KNEW that the usual tube
> bender that features a ram pushing a forming tool against a pipe while
> two side rollers hold it in place - is a disaster - it is about
> guaranteed to collapse the wall unless the tube is loaded with sand,
> ice, eutectic - whatever. So I bought the BETTER type tube bender on
> sale. This has a roller that pulls the tube round a die - this
> provides the motivation to stretch the tube wall on the outside, rather
> than ripple the tube wall on the inside of the turn.
>
> So fine: I bought it, and I bought a tube drilling jig, to make those
> nicely fitted tube joints at 90deg, 45 deg etc....and plenty of other
> things too.
>
> What's wrong with that? I haven't used these tools at all. Not once.
> And now I covet a machine lathe too (there could hardly be a more
> bargain deal for $400 after all). Trouble is, Momma would have
> conniptions if I put it in my study, and I would not dream of putting a
> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
> layer of rust.
> That would about break my heart.....
>
> Brian W

One of the advantages in living alone in a house is one of my
bedrooms is my machine shop. It's more comfortable than a garage and
cheaper than a climate controlled shop.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Stuart Fields]

"Dan" > wrote in message ...
> Brian Whatcott wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> ... buying a lot of metal-working tools doesn't mean
>>> you'll be turning out usable parts. ... So
>>> instead of day-dreaming about a 48" metal brake from Harbor Freight
>>> that you'll probably never buy anyway, why not pick up a piece of
>>> angle iron and start LEARNING how to do metal-work....
>>
>>> -R.S.Hoover
>>
>>
>> There is another outcome possible at Harbor Freight - other than the
>> day-dream ending. Like me, you may BUY a tool.
>> I am thinking of the tube bender I bought. I KNEW that the usual tube
>> bender that features a ram pushing a forming tool against a pipe while
>> two side rollers hold it in place - is a disaster - it is about
>> guaranteed to collapse the wall unless the tube is loaded with sand, ice,
>> eutectic - whatever. So I bought the BETTER type tube bender on sale.
>> This has a roller that pulls the tube round a die - this provides the
>> motivation to stretch the tube wall on the outside, rather than ripple
>> the tube wall on the inside of the turn.
>>
>> So fine: I bought it, and I bought a tube drilling jig, to make those
>> nicely fitted tube joints at 90deg, 45 deg etc....and plenty of other
>> things too.
>>
>> What's wrong with that? I haven't used these tools at all. Not once.
>> And now I covet a machine lathe too (there could hardly be a more bargain
>> deal for $400 after all). Trouble is, Momma would have conniptions if I
>> put it in my study, and I would not dream of putting a machine lathe in
>> an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a layer of rust.
>> That would about break my heart.....
>>
>> Brian W
>
> One of the advantages in living alone in a house is one of my bedrooms
> is my machine shop. It's more comfortable than a garage and cheaper than a
> climate controlled shop.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dan: One of the disadvantages I would have is sometimes my wife comes out
takes a look at what I'm doing and says " Wouldn't it be better to do it
this way?" She doesn't have any training or knowledge about machining but
she does have a totally fresh view from some other planet and sometimes she
catches me cold. It has happened a lot more than just a few times.

Stu

[Dan[_12_]]

Bryan Martin wrote:
> In article >,
> cavelamb > wrote:
>
>> Peter Dohm wrote:
>>> "Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I would not dream of putting a
>>>>>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>>>>>> layer of rust.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> You might also try LPS-3, if I recall correctly--or was it LPS-2. In any
>>> case, I believe that the one that gets waxy is also fairly popular for
>>> spraying in pick-up truck beds before istalling a bed-liner.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> That's LPS-3. But I can't find it anywhere locally.
>
>
> There's also a product called Dow Corning (or Molykote) metal protective
> coating. It's an organic wax dissolved in a solvent in an aerosol can.
> It seems to only be available from industrial supply companies. I did
> find a place to order it online but they only sell case lots.
>
McCmaster sells individual cans.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_12_]]

wrote:
> On Feb 16, 3:00 pm, Brian Whatcott > wrote:
> It says it leaves a
>> sticky surface. That's better than nothing.....
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Most of the comments are coming from people who have never used
> kerosene & a flit-gun to protect their machine tools. I suggest you
> try it before wandering off in all directions. Kerosene is called
> 'paraffin oil' for a pretty good reason: As the kerosene evaporates
> it leaves behind a layer of WAX. It is the layer of wax that protects
> the surfaces of your machine tools. Cleaning it up is no problem.
> Simply re-spray and wipe it off.
>
> Some times the 'old ways' are best. I think you'll find this is one
> of those times.
>
> -R.S.Hoover
>
Kerosene can also be used for cutting oil.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_12_]]

Morgans wrote:
> "Anthony W" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Brian Whatcott wrote:
>>
>>> I understand this objection. But I have an objection to WD-40 or straight
>>> kerosene. It evaporates. Then here comes the FeO2
>>>
>>> (At least, that's what I have in mind - I would be pleased to hear I'm
>>> wrong on this one...)
>>>
>>> Brian W
>> Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. You will be
>> amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.
>
> And if there is paint on the machine that is not bake on, epoxy, or powder
> coat, it can also remove the paint.

And stings like a ******* when you get it in a cut or scratch.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_12_]]

Stuart Fields wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message ...
>> Brian Whatcott wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>> ... buying a lot of metal-working tools doesn't mean
>>>> you'll be turning out usable parts. ... So
>>>> instead of day-dreaming about a 48" metal brake from Harbor Freight
>>>> that you'll probably never buy anyway, why not pick up a piece of
>>>> angle iron and start LEARNING how to do metal-work....
>>>> -R.S.Hoover
>>>
>>> There is another outcome possible at Harbor Freight - other than the
>>> day-dream ending. Like me, you may BUY a tool.
>>> I am thinking of the tube bender I bought. I KNEW that the usual tube
>>> bender that features a ram pushing a forming tool against a pipe while
>>> two side rollers hold it in place - is a disaster - it is about
>>> guaranteed to collapse the wall unless the tube is loaded with sand, ice,
>>> eutectic - whatever. So I bought the BETTER type tube bender on sale.
>>> This has a roller that pulls the tube round a die - this provides the
>>> motivation to stretch the tube wall on the outside, rather than ripple
>>> the tube wall on the inside of the turn.
>>>
>>> So fine: I bought it, and I bought a tube drilling jig, to make those
>>> nicely fitted tube joints at 90deg, 45 deg etc....and plenty of other
>>> things too.
>>>
>>> What's wrong with that? I haven't used these tools at all. Not once.
>>> And now I covet a machine lathe too (there could hardly be a more bargain
>>> deal for $400 after all). Trouble is, Momma would have conniptions if I
>>> put it in my study, and I would not dream of putting a machine lathe in
>>> an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a layer of rust.
>>> That would about break my heart.....
>>>
>>> Brian W
>> One of the advantages in living alone in a house is one of my bedrooms
>> is my machine shop. It's more comfortable than a garage and cheaper than a
>> climate controlled shop.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> Dan: One of the disadvantages I would have is sometimes my wife comes out
> takes a look at what I'm doing and says " Wouldn't it be better to do it
> this way?" She doesn't have any training or knowledge about machining but
> she does have a totally fresh view from some other planet and sometimes she
> catches me cold. It has happened a lot more than just a few times.
>
> Stu
>
>
My war department was good for that too, usually when I was
thoroughly frustrated or when I have something set up and ready to go
and she'd point out the set up wouldn't do what I wanted. The latter
started before we actually married when I was making a tapered desk leg
and cut the first mitre on the wrong side.

This is the same woman who asked me to clean a repair kitchen sink
drain. I drained the trap into a bucket, removed the trap and got under
the sink. She asked if there was anything she could to help. I said she
could dump the bucket. I'll let you guess where she decided to dump it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[[email protected]]

On Feb 15, 8:05*pm, "Flash" > wrote:

> Back in the middle of the last century, we doped dry-flies in *- hold on for
> this one -- *<< Ronsonol lighter fluid with parafin household wax dissolved
> in it>> . *Hey, it worked.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ronsonol... and other 'lighter fluids' are in fact, naphtha, available
in quarts, gallons and 5-gal containers from a competent painter's
supply house.

Old-time sailors use a number of formulas containing paraffin wax
dissolved in naphtha and mixed with BOILED LINSEED OIL. The mixture
was painted on to CANVAS then allowed to dry in sunlight. The result
was known as OIL-SKINS. This was usually the top-most cover of any
battened-down hatch, the foul-weather gear you wore, covers for boats
on davits, and so forth.

Among airmen, a modern-day equivalent would be Johnson's 'Jonwax 50.'
This will waterproof a sewn canvas propeller cover, cockpit cover,
etc. But if you can't afford the Jonwax (or more likely, can't locate
a source), it's always handy to have the 'old fashioned' formulas as a
back-up.

If you have trouble finding real canvas ( for a water-proof cover you
want 100% cotton or flax [ie, linen] ) try the heaviest grade of 100%
cotton 'muslin' from your local fabric shop. And if that doesn't
serve, order the largest 'tool cover' you can find in the Harbor
Freight catalog. Most such covers are made from #8 canvas (ie light-
weight stuff; lighter than the fabric in a pair of Levis).

-R.S.Hoover

PS - Covers of various kinds are a fact of aviation-life. If each
flight returns to its point of origin then you would of course have
some provision for the temporary storage of such covers. But on a
cross-country flight that includes any RON's ( ie remain-over-night )
you should make some provision for carrying such covers with you,
unless you are willing to bet the flight will NOT encounter any
problems that would require you to RON for SEVERAL nights, especially
during foul weather.
Indeed, your cross-country flight-planning usually carries such
preparations a step further; to the inclusion of adequate survival
gear for each of the plane's occupants. It should go without saying
that the WEIGHT of such gear, plus the previously mentioned covers,
must be taken into account, along with suitable STOWAGE. - rsh

[Brian Whatcott]

Anthony W wrote:
....
>
> Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. You will
> be amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.
>
> Tony

This appeals to my prejudices no doubt. But I just read Bob's thought
that kerosene retains the waxy fraction. If so, that would work for me,
just as he suggests

Brian W

[Brian Whatcott]

Dan wrote:
....
>
> One of the advantages in living alone in a house is one of my bedrooms
> is my machine shop. It's more comfortable than a garage and cheaper than
> a climate controlled shop.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
But who cooks breakfast? Oh, yes. I do! :-)
(Unfair to my beloved - she cooks and washes up after me without cease.)

B

[Anthony W]

Brian Whatcott wrote:
> Anthony W wrote:
> ...
>>
>> Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. You
>> will be amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.
>>
>> Tony
>
> This appeals to my prejudices no doubt. But I just read Bob's thought
> that kerosene retains the waxy fraction. If so, that would work for me,
> just as he suggests
>
> Brian W

The 50/50 kerosene and ATF is an old formula for a gun oil and short
term preservative. I didn't even think about it being bad for paint but
it has worked great on my rifles for many years.

Tony

[Copperhead]

On Feb 16, 6:07*pm, Anthony W > wrote:
Brian Whatcott wrote:


Brian W

Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. *You
will
be amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.

Tony

If anything is siezed the auto trans fluid will free it up quick. In
addition to removing paing it also likes to clean up rust.

Joe S.

[Dan[_12_]]

Brian Whatcott wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> ...
>>
>> One of the advantages in living alone in a house is one of my
>> bedrooms is my machine shop. It's more comfortable than a garage and
>> cheaper than a climate controlled shop.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>
> But who cooks breakfast? Oh, yes. I do! :-)
> (Unfair to my beloved - she cooks and washes up after me without cease.)
>
> B

I'm a hermit by choice. The truly amazing thing is I have survived my
own cooking. My meals are almost as good as C rats or LRRP rats.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_12_]]

Copperhead wrote:
> On Feb 16, 6:07 pm, Anthony W > wrote:
> Brian Whatcott wrote:
>
>
> Brian W
>
> Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. You
> will
> be amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.
>
> Tony
>
> If anything is siezed the auto trans fluid will free it up quick. In
> addition to removing paing it also likes to clean up rust.
>
> Joe S.

But explosives are much more satisfying for un-seizing. All
seriousness aside, in my gun smithing days I had a Krag come in with
it's bolt rusted shut. Transmission fluid released it. I have no idea
how long it actually took since I soaked it over night.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Brian Whatcott]

Copperhead wrote:
>
>> Try a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene. You
>> will be amazed how well it both lubes and protects against rust.
>
> Tony
>
> If anything is siezed the auto trans fluid will free it up quick. In
> addition to removing paint it also likes to clean up rust.
>
> Joe S.

Well - something else I hadn't heard before!

Thanks
B

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Anthony W" > wrote

> The 50/50 kerosene and ATF is an old formula for a gun oil and short term
> preservative. I didn't even think about it being bad for paint but it has
> worked great on my rifles for many years.

Yep, but on guns, there is linseed oil or varnished stocks, and gun blue,
or polished metals, with no paint.

It would be possible to kero down most machines, and stay away from what
little paint is on most of them. A rag soaked in it, or a sponge would be
as quick, and cover 98%, with a squirt here and there where rags will not
reach.
--
Jim in NC

[flash]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Anthony W" > wrote
>
>> The 50/50 kerosene and ATF is an old formula for a gun oil and short term
>> preservative. I didn't even think about it being bad for paint but it
>> has worked great on my rifles for many years.
>
> Yep, but on guns, there is linseed oil or varnished stocks, and gun blue,
> or polished metals, with no paint.
>
> It would be possible to kero down most machines, and stay away from what
> little paint is on most of them. A rag soaked in it, or a sponge would be
> as quick, and cover 98%, with a squirt here and there where rags will not
> reach.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>
>
>

The shop I once worked in had, for nearly sixty years, ordered a
Friday-afternoon last shift ritual where the chips were all shoveled out,
and every machine was entirely sprayed down with kerosene. That was a
routine that was only halted when the accumulated fine dust on the roof
trusses and rafters was finally so slopped with kerosene and it all caught
fire and took the roof right off the shop. That also was the end of all the
overhead shafting that had remained unused for twenty-five years, the lights
and most of the machine power wiring.

Oh yeah, the shop was shut down for ten days.

The local Firefighting And Barbecue Society was impressed.
(Their motto at the time was "If we don't light 'em, we don't fight 'em")

Flash

[Dan D[_2_]]

> The shop I once worked in had, for nearly sixty years, ordered a
> Friday-afternoon last shift ritual where the chips were all shoveled out,
> and every machine was entirely sprayed down with kerosene. That was a
> routine that was only halted when the accumulated fine dust on the roof
> trusses and rafters was finally so slopped with kerosene and it all caught
> fire and took the roof right off the shop. That also was the end of all the
> overhead shafting that had remained unused for twenty-five years, the lights
> and most of the machine power wiring.
>
> Oh yeah, the shop was shut down for ten days.
>
> The local Firefighting And Barbecue Society was impressed.
> (Their motto at the time was "If we don't light 'em, we don't fight 'em")
>
> Flash
>
>

Appropriate Sig, there....

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 13:35:56 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote:


>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> I would not dream of putting a
>> machine lathe in an unheated workshop where the ways might attract a
>> layer of rust.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>So buy a Flit gun and 5 gallons of kerosene. After using the lathe,
>pump up the Flit gun and give the lathe a light coating of kerosene,
>then cover it with a piece of canvas that is NOT allowed to touch any
>unpainted surface.
>
>-Bob
>
>PS -- Can't find a Flit gun? Then use one of those refillable aerosol
>cans... or use an air-brush.

my lathe sits in an unheated workshop. when the workshop was an
asbestos cement shed I had moisture problems.
now I have a colourbond tin workshop, still unheated, and all I use is
shell tellus 46 on the slideways and a thick plastic sheet draped over
it. the plastic being impervious to moisture unlike the canvas.

the poms who have your snow merely put a cover over the lathe and sit
the smallest light globe they can find down in the ways. probably
about 15 watts. the heat from that keeps the lathe and the air around
it just above ambient temperature and prevents condensation.

if you are really desperate spray a lathe under plastic with CRC or
WD40 and it should be ok.

stealth pilot