20B Panel

[jcarlyle]

Hi Guys
Does anyone have a 20B panel outline file that will work in Auto CAD
program. The 20B has a completely rounded top a flat bottom and steps
on both sides. It is different than a 19, 20A, and is the same as a
20C.
Thanks Norm

[KevinFinke]

I'd be interested in the same kind of a file. Norm, do you have a 20B
with the tip up panel? Some of the first 20B "Hobbs" models were still
fixed panel. I'd be looking for the tip up 20B panel drawing.

Thanks,
-Kevin

[Todd]

I have a "spare" ASW-20b panel (The factory original, all full of
holes from my -20b) that I would be happy to send a full sized trace
of to someone so inclined to enter into Auto CAD. It is the style
that lifts with the canopy.

Todd

[Richard[_9_]]

On Feb 16, 2:19*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Hi Guys
> Does anyone have a 20B panel outline file that will work in Auto CAD
> program. The 20B has a completely rounded top a flat bottom and steps
> on both sides. *It is different than a 19, 20A, and is the same as a
> 20C.
> Thanks Norm

I would also be interested if anyone has a .dxf or .pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Feb 16, 5:15*pm, Richard > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 2:19*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys
> > Does anyone have a 20B panel outline file that will work in Auto CAD
> > program. The 20B has a completely rounded top a flat bottom and steps
> > on both sides. *It is different than a 19, 20A, and is the same as a
> > 20C.
> > Thanks Norm
>
> I would also be interested if anyone has a .dxf *or *.pdf
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com

There is a crude hack I've used from time to time, take a photo from
about 10 feet away and import that into autocad as an image file, then
scale to the correct dimension. I would want to check it against the
original before sending out to the water jet or laser people but it
can be useful. Send me the photo and accurate measurements at critical
points and I'll scale it for you.

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Feb 16, 9:35*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 5:15*pm, Richard > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 16, 2:19*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > > Hi Guys
> > > Does anyone have a 20B panel outline file that will work in Auto CAD
> > > program. The 20B has a completely rounded top a flat bottom and steps
> > > on both sides. *It is different than a 19, 20A, and is the same as a
> > > 20C.
> > > Thanks Norm
>
> > I would also be interested if anyone has a .dxf *or *.pdf
>
> > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> There is a crude hack I've used from time to time, take a photo from
> about 10 feet away and import that into autocad as an image file, then
> scale to the correct dimension. I would want to check it against the
> original before sending out to the water jet or laser people but it
> can be useful. Send me the photo and accurate measurements at critical
> points and I'll scale it for you.

Hey Kevin,
I just realized you were one of the people in this thread, and that
you were talking about working on your panel. If I get a photo to
scale I'll plot it out full size and we could check it against your
ship. If a few people wanted them we could send the file off to my
cutter and he could water or laser them pretty cheap. What's the cool
material to cut them out of?

[[email protected]]

On Feb 16, 9:35*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 5:15*pm, Richard > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 16, 2:19*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > > Hi Guys
> > > Does anyone have a 20B panel outline file that will work in Auto CAD
> > > program. The 20B has a completely rounded top a flat bottom and steps
> > > on both sides. *It is different than a 19, 20A, and is the same as a
> > > 20C.
> > > Thanks Norm
>
> > I would also be interested if anyone has a .dxf *or *.pdf
>
> > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> There is a crude hack I've used from time to time, take a photo from
> about 10 feet away and import that into autocad as an image file, then
> scale to the correct dimension. I would want to check it against the
> original before sending out to the water jet or laser people but it
> can be useful. Send me the photo and accurate measurements at critical
> points and I'll scale it for you.

Make sure to use a reasonably long focal length or you'll have trouble
with spherical distortion.

9B

[jcarlyle]

Hi, Brian,

I'm working with Norm on his panel project. I'll contact you off-line,
and send you a photo of the panel, with measurements. I'll use my
Panasonic TZ3, which has a 28-280 mm lens (35 mm equivalent figures).
I really appreciate your help; I'm a neophyte with AutoCAD.

-John

brianDG303 wrote:
> There is a crude hack I've used from time to time, take a photo from
> about 10 feet away and import that into autocad as an image file, then
> scale to the correct dimension. I would want to check it against the
> original before sending out to the water jet or laser people but it
> can be useful. Send me the photo and accurate measurements at critical
> points and I'll scale it for you.

[Brad[_2_]]

On Feb 16, 11:35*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 5:15*pm, Richard > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 16, 2:19*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > > Hi Guys
> > > Does anyone have a 20B panel outline file that will work in Auto CAD
> > > program. The 20B has a completely rounded top a flat bottom and steps
> > > on both sides. *It is different than a 19, 20A, and is the same as a
> > > 20C.
> > > Thanks Norm
>
> > I would also be interested if anyone has a .dxf *or *.pdf
>
> > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> There is a crude hack I've used from time to time, take a photo from
> about 10 feet away and import that into autocad as an image file, then
> scale to the correct dimension. I would want to check it against the
> original before sending out to the water jet or laser people but it
> can be useful. Send me the photo and accurate measurements at critical
> points and I'll scale it for you.

Brian,

Do you use the panel image as a template and "trace" over it with
splines?
Didn't know a raster image could be used to program a cutting tool!

Brad

[cernauta]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 05:14:59 -0800 (PST), jcarlyle
> wrote:

>Hi, Brian,
>
>I'm working with Norm on his panel project. I'll contact you off-line,
>and send you a photo of the panel, with measurements. I'll use my
>Panasonic TZ3, which has a 28-280 mm lens (35 mm equivalent figures).
>I really appreciate your help; I'm a neophyte with AutoCAD.

You're lucky: the TZ3 has a very low "barrel" distortion. Avoid 28mm
and you'll be fine. See
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicTZ3/page3.asp
Make sure the sensor/lens is accurately placed in front of the
geometrical center of the panel, and that it's pointed precisely to
it, otherwise you'll have huge perspective distortion.

[Richard[_9_]]

On Feb 16, 9:45*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On Feb 16, 9:35*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 16, 5:15*pm, Richard > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 16, 2:19*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > > > Hi Guys
> > > > Does anyone have a 20B panel outline file that will work in Auto CAD
> > > > program. The 20B has a completely rounded top a flat bottom and steps
> > > > on both sides. *It is different than a 19, 20A, and is the same as a
> > > > 20C.
> > > > Thanks Norm
>
> > > I would also be interested if anyone has a .dxf *or *.pdf
>
> > > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> > There is a crude hack I've used from time to time, take a photo from
> > about 10 feet away and import that into autocad as an image file, then
> > scale to the correct dimension. I would want to check it against the
> > original before sending out to the water jet or laser people but it
> > can be useful. Send me the photo and accurate measurements at critical
> > points and I'll scale it for you.
>
> Hey Kevin,
> I just realized you were one of the people in this thread, and that
> you were talking about working on your panel. If I get a photo to
> scale I'll plot it out full size and we could check it against your
> ship. If a few people wanted them we could send the file off to my
> cutter and he could water or laser them pretty cheap. What's the cool
> material to cut them out of?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Brian,

I would recommend fiberglass or aluminum. Fiberglass is the easiest
to work with and if you have mistakes it is easy to recoupe. Stay
away from carbon fibre if you are drilling or sawing on your own. It
is hard on drills and saws and can easily splinter.

Do the finish after you have all the holes cut. I coat my panels with
Stone Finish (available at Home Depot) and then bake them in the
oven. Make sure the wife is gone. Preheat to 200F turnoff place
panel in the oven. Don't miss the turnoff! If you want a flat black
over the stone finish use wood stove high heat flat black spray paint
(Home Depot again) do the bake again.

Some pictures of the finish at

http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[brianDG303[_2_]]

>
> Do you use the panel image as a template and "trace" over it with
> splines?
> Didn't know a raster image could be used to program a cutting tool!
>
> Brad

Have to trace it, yes. I have no idea what the file would do to a
water jet and I don't want to find out.

[Barny]

If you haven't found a shop to fabricate the panels, take a look at
this website www.emachineshop.com. You download their version of
autocad, draw your part, select materials, click, click, pay,
delivery. Three guys here ordered panels to spread out the set-up
cost and I recall it was about $120/each for 3mm aluminum nicely laser
cut. They also have water jet and every other process. I have no
affiliation with this company, just think it's a cool option for
projects.
~Barny

[JJ Sinclair]

With all the talk about computer generated panels, I would offer this.
It is quite easy to redo an old fiberglass panel.............just
grind the back of the panel down until its paper thin, then clamp a
smooth surface to the front (I use a clean hunk of aluminum), then lay
in 3 layers of medium cloth (92125) and after its cured, pop off the
front piece and you have a clean, flat new panel to drill what and
where you like. I use hole-saws in a drill press (drilling from the
rear) Tidy up any minor depressions with bondo, prime and paint with
flat-black spray can. The original panel mounting holes can be drilled
out again and everything fits back in the cockpit with mininum hassle.
Cheers,
JJ

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 17, 10:01*am, Richard > wrote:

> I would recommend fiberglass or aluminum. *Fiberglass is the easiest
> to work with and if you have mistakes it is easy to recoupe. * *

While there may be some gliders that were designed with metal panels,
and some of them may use the panel as a structural member, I think
it's generally accepted that fiberglass panels are safer in a crash
than metal panels.

Of course if you never crash it's not an issue.

Andy

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 18, 7:03*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> I use hole-saws in a drill press (drilling from the
> rear)

Why drill from the rear? I was so sure that cutting and drilling from
the front would be better that I cut a wood spacer to fit inside my 28
panel so it was properly supported. It was much easier to measure
and mark the open face than it would have been to work under the lip.
What did I miss?

Maybe I'm mixing up front and rear. I'm assuming the front face of my
panel faces aft, or to the rear of the glider.

Andy

[Paul Weeden]

At 16:43 18 February 2009, Andy wrote:
>On Feb 18, 7:03=A0am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>> I use hole-saws in a drill press (drilling from the
>> rear)
>
>Why drill from the rear? I was so sure that cutting and drilling from
>the front would be better that I cut a wood spacer to fit inside my 28
>panel so it was properly supported. It was much easier to measure
>and mark the open face than it would have been to work under the lip.
>What did I miss?
>
>Maybe I'm mixing up front and rear. I'm assuming the front face of my
>panel faces aft, or to the rear of the glider.
>
>Andy
>andy; cut holes from the side that you look at,while flying ( the
molded/finished side) and be sure to lay out the inst. mounting holes from
the centre that the hole saw will use. the back of the panel will be rough
and uneven, set up the hole saw so that the drill goes into your wood
block to act as a pilot hole.I use hole saws that have a single carbide
cutting tool and only cut inst holes with them. Paul

[Andy[_1_]]

On Feb 18, 1:15*pm, Paul Weeden > wrote:
> >andy; cut holes from the side that you look at,while flying ( the
> molded/finished side) and be sure to lay out the inst. mounting holes from
> the centre that the hole saw will use. the back of the panel will be rough
> and uneven, set up the hole saw so that the drill goes into your wood
> block to act as a pilot hole.I use hole saws that have a single carbide
> cutting tool and only cut inst holes with them. Paul

Thanks for the advice but I got the job done several years ago.

Andy

[jcarlyle]

Hi, Brian,

I sent an e-mail to your gmail account with the panel photos and
measurements on 17 Feb. Did you receive it?

-John

jcarlyle wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
> I'm working with Norm on his panel project. I'll contact you off-line,
> and send you a photo of the panel, with measurements. I'll use my
> Panasonic TZ3, which has a 28-280 mm lens (35 mm equivalent figures).
> I really appreciate your help; I'm a neophyte with AutoCAD.
>
> -John

[brianDG303[_2_]]

On Feb 22, 8:56*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
> I sent an e-mail to your gmail account with the panel photos and
> measurements on 17 Feb. Did you receive it?
>
> -John
>
> jcarlyle wrote:
> > Hi, Brian,
>
> > I'm working with Norm on his panel project. I'll contact you off-line,
> > and send you a photo of the panel, with measurements. I'll use my
> > Panasonic TZ3, which has a 28-280 mm lens (35 mm equivalent figures).
> > I really appreciate your help; I'm a neophyte with AutoCAD.
>
> > -John

John, I never look at that account, I didn't realize it had
automatically been made my contact email. I'll fix that. Anyway, I am
just finishing it now.

[Papa3]

On Feb 18, 10:03*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> With all the talk about computer generated panels, I would offer this.
> It is quite easy to redo an old fiberglass panel.............just
> grind the back of the panel down until its paper thin, then clamp a
> smooth surface to the front (I use a clean hunk of aluminum), then lay
> in 3 layers of medium cloth (92125) and after its cured, pop off the
> front piece and you have a clean, flat new panel to drill what and
> where you like. I use hole-saws in a drill press (drilling from the
> rear) Tidy up any minor depressions with bondo, prime and paint with
> flat-black spray can. The original panel mounting holes can be drilled
> out again and everything fits back in the cockpit with mininum hassle.
> Cheers,
> JJ

Just a quick variation on this theme. I had a minor panel reconfigure
job last week involving the relocation of some panel mount fuses and
switches in order to take advantage of that space for a new
transponder. I used JJ's approach with some minor modifications and
it worked outstandingly well:

- Used a piece of plywood instead of aluminum and covered it with
duct tape as the release agent.
- Filled from the back using Bondo impregnated with chopped glass as
the filler (these were only dime-sized holes)
- Upon removal, had a very smooth surface complete with "simulated
glass weave" thanks to the pattern in the duct tape.
- Quick surface coat of regular bondo folloed by flat black spray and
ended up with a perfect repair.

Saved me probably $200 for a new panel blank not to mention countless
hours re-drilling all of the instrument holes.

Thanks JJ

[[email protected]]

On Apr 1, 2:42*pm, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Feb 18, 10:03*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > With all the talk about computer generated panels, I would offer this.
> > It is quite easy to redo an old fiberglass panel.............just
> > grind the back of the panel down until its paper thin, then clamp a
> > smooth surface to the front (I use a clean hunk of aluminum), then lay
> > in 3 layers of medium cloth (92125) and after its cured, pop off the
> > front piece and you have a clean, flat new panel to drill what and
> > where you like. I use hole-saws in a drill press (drilling from the
> > rear) Tidy up any minor depressions with bondo, prime and paint with
> > flat-black spray can. The original panel mounting holes can be drilled
> > out again and everything fits back in the cockpit with mininum hassle.
> > Cheers,
> > JJ
>
> Just a quick variation on this theme. *I had a minor panel reconfigure
> job last week involving the relocation of some panel mount fuses and
> switches in order to take advantage of that space for a new
> transponder. * I used JJ's approach with some minor modifications and
> it worked outstandingly well:
>
> - *Used a piece of plywood instead of aluminum and covered it with
> duct tape as the release agent.
> - *Filled from the back using Bondo impregnated with chopped glass as
> the filler (these were only dime-sized holes)
> - *Upon removal, had a very smooth surface complete with "simulated
> glass weave" thanks to the pattern in the duct tape.
> - *Quick surface coat of regular bondo folloed by flat black spray and
> ended up with a perfect repair.
>
> Saved me probably $200 for a new panel blank not to mention countless
> hours re-drilling all of the instrument holes.
>
> Thanks JJ

I do it JJ's way and have done probably 20 panels this way. Little
cost, and you don't have to doall the stuff that's right all over
again.
I find satin Rustoleum give nice finish and seems to resist scuffs a
little better than flat.
UH