Commercial vs Private, towing

[150flivver]

I seem to recall being told the FAA had exempted towing gliders from
the need for a commercial license as long as no monetary compensation
is received by the private pilot tow pilot. Is this still true or is
flight time alone considered compensation as it is in the rest of the
powered flight realm?

[BT]

"150flivver" > wrote in message
...
>I seem to recall being told the FAA had exempted towing gliders from
> the need for a commercial license as long as no monetary compensation
> is received by the private pilot tow pilot. Is this still true or is
> flight time alone considered compensation as it is in the rest of the
> powered flight realm?

There have been many discussions in this area, Google will bring up a lot.

Pvt Pilot Privileges, 61.113
(a) Except for (b) and (g), no person who holds a Pvt cert may act as PIC
for compensation
(b) May act as PIC for compensation if (1) flight is incidental to the
business and (2) do not carry passengers.
(g) Pvt pilot who meets requirements of 61.69 may act as PIC towing a
glider.

The business is giving glider rides, not tow plane rides.
I am looking for the FAA reference where they consider log book entries
under 61.113 to not be compensation, but no $$ can be exchanged. They used
to say just logging the time was compensation but the changed the wording in
(b) and (g) above so you can log the time.

On the other hand.. you could tow all you want.. and as long as you don't
count that time towards another rating requirements, it would not matter.

Burt Compton would be a great source.

BT

[vaughn]

"150flivver" > wrote in message
...
>I seem to recall being told the FAA had exempted towing gliders from
> the need for a commercial license as long as no monetary compensation
> is received by the private pilot tow pilot. Is this still true or is
> flight time alone considered compensation as it is in the rest of the
> powered flight realm?

61.113 (a) as modified by (g) seems to clearly allow a private pilot who
meets the requirements of 61.69 to tow gliders for compensation or hire.
That said, this is a situation where one needs to look far beyond simply
complying with the regulations. First, your insurance company may have much
stricter requirements. Second; should the very worst happen, you need to
think about how your operation would look to a jury of folks who know
nothing about aviation.

Vaughn

[sisu1a]

> I seem to recall being told the FAA had exempted towing gliders from
> the need for a commercial license as long as no monetary compensation
> is received by the private pilot tow pilot. *Is this still true or is
> flight time alone considered compensation as it is in the rest of the
> powered flight realm?

Umm, where do you fly? I want to get in on this non-compensation-for-
tows deal... :) It's perfectly legal if a private does it for free
(towing flight time is not compensation, neither is charging up to the
pro-rata share of direct expenses for that matter...), but who the
hell does that? And where?

-Paul

[BT]

We don't pay our tow pilots.
And how can you "pro rata" for one?
BT

"sisu1a" > wrote in message
...
> I seem to recall being told the FAA had exempted towing gliders from
> the need for a commercial license as long as no monetary compensation
> is received by the private pilot tow pilot. Is this still true or is
> flight time alone considered compensation as it is in the rest of the
> powered flight realm?

Umm, where do you fly? I want to get in on this non-compensation-for-
tows deal... :) It's perfectly legal if a private does it for free
(towing flight time is not compensation, neither is charging up to the
pro-rata share of direct expenses for that matter...), but who the
hell does that? And where?

-Paul

[CindyASK]

On Mar 21, 7:51*am, "BT" > wrote:
> "150flivver" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >I seem to recall being told the FAA had exempted towing gliders from
> > the need for a commercial license as long as no monetary compensation
> > is received by the private pilot tow pilot. *Is this still true or is
> > flight time alone considered compensation as it is in the rest of the
> > powered flight realm?
>

Update for the masses . . . .


Private Pilot Towing

I was contacted following some local conversations about an
interpretation
of the FARs as a part of the Governmental Liaison Committee for SSA.
The question posed to me was whether or not a Private pilot could be
“compensated” for towing at a contest….
In the example given,
“could the Private certificate tow pilot be provided meals or
lodging?”

I cited 61.113(g) as the FAR in play. I also read it as a very
simplistic
sentence, which I had observed change in an FAR update in about 2004.
Based on the 2004 documents published with that change, I believed it
was
a pretty plain conclusion that private pilots could tow and be
compensated.

I also warned the contest organizers raising the issue that the
FAR may not be the most limiting consideration. The tow plane’s
insurance
coverage would likely be the most restrictive document on the subject
of
which human may provide service to whom.

In the dark ages, private pilots couldn’t tow anything. A club (which
is no
longer in existence in Region 8) asked for help from SSA. They
couldn’t
find enough Commercial pilots and sought relief. SSA helped. SSA
negotiated a waiver from the FAA, to allow club operations to use
Private
pilots -- if the pilots did not use the accumulation of flight time
toward
a furtherance of ratings. Accumulating flight time was considered by
FAA to be “compensation”, as total time has value toward aviation
employment.

The waivers continued for many years, until the FAA decided there was
NO safety issue under this SSA-initiated-documented program. Rather
than
continue wavier extensions, they changed the privileges of Private
pilots in 1997 to allow glider towing, and noted that time could be
accrued. But the FAA was silent on other forms of compensation.
This was another instance of SSA’s action benefiting all US glider
ops, not just “members”.

In 2004, FAA rewrote Part 61 again, to include towing of ultralight
vehicles under Sport pilot and Light Sport Aircraft rules. At that
time,
in the comments of adoption, the FAA stated that Private pilots were
indeed allowed to tow gliders for compensation and hire
(their words, not mine). But the FAA declined to extend that
privilege
to Sport or Recreational pilots. The FAA referred to 61.113(g).

Since a few folks in SSA disagreed with my recent answer,
and talked to a person in FAA who agreed with them, SSA has
sent a formal letter to the FAA to ask for an interpretation of 61.113
(g).
I don’t anticipate SSA getting an answer to that letter before most,
if not all, of the 2009 soaring season is completed.

The SSA Group Insurance Program was modified to include Private
pilots towing internally to the club’s operations many years ago.
Private pilots were insured to operate club tugs, including towing
club members giving rides for hire or instruction.

Meanwhile, soaring goes on.

100-Hour Inspections
As far back as the late 1970’s SSA did receive a formal FAA letter
of interpretation that states that towing a glider is specifically
NOT carrying passengers. If your towplane:

1) does NOT give flight instruction for hire,
2) does NOT carry passengers for rides
(for this you need drug testing, etc. see Part 136 Air
Tours),
then the tug does NOT need 100-hour inspections. Save some club/
school bucks.

If you are training tow pilots, that doesn’t require a CFI-A trainer.
The trainee is part of the tug flight crew, not a passenger.
No 100-hour is required. Usually, this operation IS included in SSA
Group coverage. (Check your tow pilot’s recent experience needs
for 2009, as this is formally Spring now. FAR 61.69 (a) 6.)

Contest Towing

Who can tow at contests?
SSA contest rules don’t specify anything but a liability
insurance requirement for each tug, and FAR compliance.
SSA contest rules do set the maximum entry fees, and the
maximum value calculated for tow fees, adjusted annually
to reflect current costs. If the fees didn’t meet tug expenses,
contests wouldn’t get launched.

The SSA Group Program was recently modified to include
club tugs towing at SANCTIONED contests, provided they were
using Commercial tow pilots, and the tugs and pilots could be
paid at any exorbitant rate they could negotiate
(my tongue is firmly in-cheek here, folks.)

Contest staff is charged with being certain their contracted tugs
are operated within their coverage. Could a tug owner have
liability coverage, and the insurance include a Private pilot towing?
Sure. But that isn’t a very likely scenario.

Fly safely, and renew your SSA membership.

Cindy Brickner

[150flivver]

> Cindy Brickner

Thanks for the information.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 22, 2:06*am, CindyASK > wrote:
> Contest Towing
>
> Who can tow at contests?
> SSA contest rules don’t specify anything but a liability
> insurance requirement for each tug, and FAR compliance.
> SSA contest rules do set the maximum entry fees, and the
> maximum value calculated for tow fees, adjusted annually
> to reflect current costs. *If the fees didn’t meet tug expenses,
> contests wouldn’t get launched.
>
> The SSA Group Program was recently modified to include
> club tugs towing at SANCTIONED contests, provided they were
> using Commercial tow pilots, and the tugs and pilots could be
> paid at any exorbitant rate they could negotiate
> (my tongue is firmly in-cheek here, folks.)
>
> Contest staff is charged with being certain their contracted tugs
> are operated within their coverage. *Could a tug owner have
> liability coverage, and the insurance include a Private pilot towing?
> Sure. *But that isn’t a very likely scenario.

Apparently the insurance company IS ruling on this--and forcing
contest hosts to consider canceling their contests. Because the
requirements for contest towing is now elevated--as per some
information that's come my way: Costello insurance requires a contest
tow pilot to be not only Commercial-rated, but also be the holder of a
Class II Medical. Even if they don't receive any compensation.

Wow-- for us that kind towpilot simply doesn't grow on trees. Oh yes,
they're around. But being a non-profit club, and hosting a sanctioned
contest for an entry fee that's on par with most of the 2009
Regionals, we're not budgeted to pay a commercial for-hire guy to come
and tow. We're dependent on volunteer club tugs and pilots to help
(which has been the successful and safe case for years and years). The
vast majority of them are Private (with the proper towpilot
endorsements), and the Commercial-rated ones we have don't hold Class
II's and are not about to get them just to tow for expenses at a
contest.

And the other thing that's making this difficult to accept: there's no
history of violations or accidents that makes this change a necessity.
The FAA is not in receipt of any scenarios that has them wanting the
contest world in the U.S. to change. It's all about money; not about
making things safer.

I see this decision as simply hurting soaring, which has, by and
large, kept up a very good record of safety and due-diligence in
running sanctioned contests. And contests have been a very good
conduit for showcasing the sport to the public, thus encouraging
people to join the sport.

I know--"just go out and spend more money to get your Commercial and
Class II and comply"--even though it doesn't make you a better and
safer towpilot at a contest. So If we cave in to this, what's next? We
have to become TSA-certified and file our operations reports to them
24-hours before we tow?

It's all about the money.