Slow Down, Speed up

[Robert Gaines[_2_]]

Several years ago, I was told that the US signals for slow down and speed
up are not the same as used in Europe.
Can any European friends confirm or deny this?

In USA, Slow Down is yaw
Speed Up is Rock wings

Thanks,

Bob

[Frank Whiteley]

On Apr 12, 5:15*pm, Robert Gaines >
wrote:
> *Several years ago, I was told that the US signals for slow down and speed
> up are not the same as used in Europe.
> *Can any European friends confirm or deny this?
>
> * In USA, *Slow Down is yaw
> * Speed Up is *Rock wings
>
> *Thanks,
>
> *Bob

Presuming ground launching, most operations I'm aware of no longer
rock wings for speed up, but simply lower the nose. The tail wag, or
yaw, is still used for slow down.

Frank Whiteley

[Jesper Thomsen]

Frank Whiteley skrev:
> On Apr 12, 5:15 pm, Robert Gaines >
> wrote:
>> Several years ago, I was told that the US signals for slow down and speed
>> up are not the same as used in Europe.
>> Can any European friends confirm or deny this?
>>
>> In USA, Slow Down is yaw
>> Speed Up is Rock wings
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>
> Presuming ground launching, most operations I'm aware of no longer
> rock wings for speed up, but simply lower the nose. The tail wag, or
> yaw, is still used for slow down.
>
> Frank Whiteley

In Denmark, it's exactly the opposite...

Yaw/Rudder for speed up, Roll/Ailerons for slow down and they are the
same in Germany as far as I know.

/J

[John Cochrane]

>
> In Denmark, it's exactly the opposite...
>
> Yaw/Rudder for speed up, Roll/Ailerons for slow down and they are the
> same in Germany as far as I know.

Interesting. I remember the US signals by remembering that if I'm slow
on the edge of a stall the last thing I want to do is aggressive
ruddering.

John Cochrane

[Gav Goudie[_2_]]

UK BGA: rudder for too fast and ailerons for too slow (in 20 years of being

around winch sites I have never seen or used the latter) I am staggered
that
the alternative method is used anywhere, even if the correct and expected
pre
cursor is to lower the nose and unload the airframe.

GG

(It's more like 25 years now that I think of it!)

At 20:53 15 April 2009, John Cochrane wrote:
>>
>> In Denmark, it's exactly the opposite...
>>
>> Yaw/Rudder for speed up, Roll/Ailerons for slow down and they are the
>> same in Germany as far as I know.
>
>Interesting. I remember the US signals by remembering that if I'm slow
>on the edge of a stall the last thing I want to do is aggressive
>ruddering.
>
>John Cochrane
>

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

The use of ailerons to rock the wings to indicate too slow was discontinued
in the UK in the 1960s, it was thought to be responsible for gliders
spinning on the wire. The appropriate action is to lower the nose. A
switched on winch driver will spot this and speed up, if he can. If you
get a dozy one, or there is a problem then the action is to treat as a
failure and release.
Too fast, yaw with rudder. I have always wondered about high yaw rates
with high angle of attack and wing loading, even if the indicated speed is
"high", but that is still the "official" procedure in the UK.
Yaw to indicate too slow, seems a quick way to get back down on the ground
to me.


At 22:45 15 April 2009, Gav Goudie wrote:
>UK BGA: rudder for too fast and ailerons for too slow (in 20 years of
being
>
>around winch sites I have never seen or used the latter) I am staggered
>that
>the alternative method is used anywhere, even if the correct and
expected
>pre
>cursor is to lower the nose and unload the airframe.
>
>GG
>
>(It's more like 25 years now that I think of it!)
>
>At 20:53 15 April 2009, John Cochrane wrote:
>>>
>>> In Denmark, it's exactly the opposite...
>>>
>>> Yaw/Rudder for speed up, Roll/Ailerons for slow down and they are the
>>> same in Germany as far as I know.
>>
>>Interesting. I remember the US signals by remembering that if I'm slow
>>on the edge of a stall the last thing I want to do is aggressive
>>ruddering.
>>
>>John Cochrane
>>
>

[Z Goudie[_2_]]

In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a too
slow signal.

Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to get
the message. If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....

[Del C[_2_]]

At 08:30 16 April 2009, Z Goudie wrote:
>In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a too
>slow signal.
>
>Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to get
>the message. If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....

Your friends fatal accident, amongst others, is why we gave up rocking the
wings as a too slow signal. Yawing the tail for too slow would be even more
likely to lead to a spin!

The current UK system is to yaw the glider (waggle the tail) with the
rudder for 'too fast' and to lower the nose for 'too slow'. The latter
also reduces the chance of stalling or spinning by reducing the effective
wing loading and angle of attack, notwithstanding the dangers of
manoeuvring close to the stall. BTW, we no longer ease forward to unload
the glider before signalling too fast, as this could initially be
misinterpreted as a too slow signal. If the launch is very much too fast,
or doesn't slow down after signalling, pilots are advised to climb gently
to a minimum safe circuit height and then pull off. The biggest loads on
the glider's structure occur near the top of the launch, and when the
pilot is pulling back hard.

Some of the German Clubs I have flown at rocked the wings for too fast and
waggled the rudder rather rapidly over a small range for too slow. The
latter was intended as a signal to the launch marshall to tell the winch
driver to speed up via the landline telephone that they have to have in
that country.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has died and no gliders have suffered
structural damage as a result of giving the currently recommended UK
signals.

Derek Copeland

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 08:30 16 April 2009, Z Goudie wrote:
>In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a too
>slow signal.
>
>Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to get
>the message. If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....
>

Only threaten? Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
standard, right every time.

[Ian Burgin]

At 14:30 16 April 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 08:30 16 April 2009, Z Goudie wrote:
>>In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a
too
>>slow signal.
>>
>>Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to get
>>the message. If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>>threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....
>>
>
>Only threaten? Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
>standard, right every time.
Threatening the winch driver could be counter productive, he may be a
black belt or be similarly qualified and if not, you may never get a
decent launch ever again from the tiny minority of winch driving members.

[John Smith]

Don Johnstone wrote:

>> If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>> threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....

> Only threaten? Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
> standard, right every time.

Where I live, threatening somebody with physical violence is considered
a crime, and realizing this threat is considered a major crime.

Legal questions aside, a pilot who chose to threat me with whatever
would never again get a launch from me, not even a bad one. Frankly, I
consider such comments plain primitive.

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 18:30 16 April 2009, Ian Burgin wrote:
>At 14:30 16 April 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>At 08:30 16 April 2009, Z Goudie wrote:
>>>In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a
>too
>>>slow signal.
>>>
>>>Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to
get
>>>the message. If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>>>threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....
>>>
>>
>>Only threaten? Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
>>standard, right every time.
>Threatening the winch driver could be counter productive, he may be a
>black belt or be similarly qualified and if not, you may never get a
>decent launch ever again from the tiny minority of winch driving
members.
>
In the 90's when I was flying a EON460 from a winch on a flat field we
had a rule that said "land ahead for free " to discourage low turns. as
we used white links, I had many firm talks with winch drivers, that is
usually about where I came to rest.
I gave the olly to a museum after its sister ship brokeup on the wire
when it PIO ed ; I was 2 places behind in the line and it never flew
again.
Jon

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 18:30 16 April 2009, Ian Burgin wrote:
>At 14:30 16 April 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>At 08:30 16 April 2009, Z Goudie wrote:
>>>In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a
>too
>>>slow signal.
>>>
>>>Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to
get
>>>the message. If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>>>threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....
>>>
>>
>>Only threaten? Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
>>standard, right every time.
>Threatening the winch driver could be counter productive, he may be a
>black belt or be similarly qualified and if not, you may never get a
>decent launch ever again from the tiny minority of winch driving
members.
>
In the 90's when I was flying a EON460 from a winch on a flat field we
had a rule that said "land ahead for free " to discourage low turns. as
we used white links, I had many firm talks with winch drivers, that is
usually about where I came to rest.
I gave the olly to a museum after its sister ship brokeup on the wire
when it PIO ed ; I was 2 places behind in the line and it never flew
again.
Jon

[Z Goudie[_2_]]

At 19:06 16 April 2009, John Smith wrote:

>Where I live, threatening somebody with physical violence is considered
>a crime, and realizing this threat is considered a major crime.
>
>Legal questions aside, a pilot who chose to threat me with whatever
>would never again get a launch from me, not even a bad one. Frankly, I
>consider such comments plain primitive.

Where were you when they handed out the sense of humour diplomas??

[Alto Cu]

Strangely enough the laws on this side of the Atlantic are very
similar, however one thing that seems to differ is the
appreciation of sarcasm and a bone dry sense of humour - far
from primitive - it stimulates useful and constructive debate
about serious safety issues.

And always remember the winch drivers anthem (in the style of
The Dubliners):

"I've been a winch driver for many a year
and I've spent all my money on whisk(e)y and beer.... etc etc


>
>Where I live, threatening somebody with physical violence is
considered
>a crime, and realizing this threat is considered a major crime.
>
>Legal questions aside, a pilot who chose to threat me with
whatever
>would never again get a launch from me, not even a bad one.
Frankly, I
>consider such comments plain primitive.
>

[John Smith]

Z Goudie wrote:

> Where were you when they handed out the sense of humour diplomas??

I don't consider threatening with physical violence humorous.

[vontresc]

On Apr 16, 2:30*pm, Jonathon May > wrote:
> At 18:30 16 April 2009, Ian Burgin wrote:
>
>
>
> >At 14:30 16 April 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
> >>At 08:30 16 April 2009, Z Goudie wrote:
> >>>In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a
> >too
> >>>slow signal.
>
> >>>Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to
> get
> >>>the message. *If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
> >>>threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....
>
> >>Only threaten? *Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
> >>standard, right every time.
> >Threatening the winch driver could be counter productive, he may be a
> >black belt or be similarly qualified and if not, you may never get a
> >decent launch ever again from the tiny minority of winch driving
> members.
>
> In the 90's when I was flying a EON460 from a winch on a flat field we
> had a rule that said "land ahead for free " to discourage low turns. as
> we used white links, I had many firm talks with winch drivers, that is
> usually *about where I came to rest.
> I gave *the olly to a museum after its sister ship brokeup on the wire
> when it PIO ed ; I was 2 places behind in the line and it never flew
> again.
> Jon- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well if this is the accident you are referring to

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502118.pdf

It seems that using 2 primary weak links, instead of one primary, and
one reserve didn't exactly help. Doubling up the weak link strength is
a recipe for disaster.

I don't winch as we only aerotow, but in light of this how many
verify their weak links before hooking up? Also do you check to make
sure that you are using a main and a reserve link if you use such a
setup?

Pete

[Jon Simpson[_2_]]

"Ian Burgin" > wrote in message
...
> At 14:30 16 April 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>At 08:30 16 April 2009, Z Goudie wrote:
>>>In the distant past I saw a friend die when he rocked the wings as a
> too
>>>slow signal.
>>>
>>>Nose down to maintain a safe speed and wait for the winch driver to get
>>>the message. If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>>>threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....
>>>
>>
>>Only threaten? Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
>>standard, right every time.
> Threatening the winch driver could be counter productive, he may be a
> black belt or be similarly qualified and if not, you may never get a
> decent launch ever again from the tiny minority of winch driving members.

Absolutely. Winch drivers should be bought flowers, chocolates and escorted
to the winch in limousines whilst being provided with self licking ice
creams.

I know how to grovel :-)

Jon

[Alto Cu]

Neither do I - but you have clearly missed the point!

I rest my case m'lord

At 20:44 16 April 2009, John Smith wrote:
>Z Goudie wrote:
>
>> Where were you when they handed out the sense of humour
diplomas??
>
>I don't consider threatening with physical violence humorous.
>

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 20:44 16 April 2009, John Smith wrote:
>Z Goudie wrote:
>
>> Where were you when they handed out the sense of humour diplomas??
>
>I don't consider threatening with physical violence humorous.
>
Look if you don't behave I will challenge you to a bout of fish slapping,
non violent of course. (You would have to be a Python fan to get the maning
of this)
I would not have posted as I did if I thought for one minute that Z was
serious.
Now, where did I put that large cod. :-)

[Matthew Ladley]

Sense of humour failure me thinks donald!!!

At 19:06 16 April 2009, John Smith wrote:
>Don Johnstone wrote:
>
>>> If he doesn't, pull off, land next to the winch and
>>> threaten him with physical violence if he does it again....
>
>> Only threaten? Pity all winch drivers are not up to the Wotherspoon
>> standard, right every time.
>
>Where I live, threatening somebody with physical violence is considered
>a crime, and realizing this threat is considered a major crime.
>
>Legal questions aside, a pilot who chose to threat me with whatever
>would never again get a launch from me, not even a bad one. Frankly, I
>consider such comments plain primitive.
>

[Z Goudie[_2_]]

At 20:44 16 April 2009, John Smith wrote:

>I don't consider threatening with physical violence humorous.

Where I fly the standard winch driver response is "Aye, right! You and
whose army?" Followed by, as the exchange gets more heated.

"Dis yer Maw sew? Well get her to stitch this." accompanied by a
Glasgow Kiss.

These are of course mere preliminaries to a full blooded punch up with the
victor giving the vanquished a lift to the local hospital A&E department
and then on to the Pub.