Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

[vic20owner]

No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
are associated with buying a used glider.

I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range). BUT, for future reference, what inspections
are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
structural damage or electrical problems? How much damage should I
consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
is major (wing struts, etc)?

Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. Is it common to pay
someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?

Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?

Thanks
-tom

[Surfer!]

I am in the UK so it might vary, but:

1) talk to your CFI before contemplating buying a glider, and take
his/her guidance. At my club first gliders are usually glass, 15m and
unflapped - gliders such as the ASW19, Pegase, DG300, LS4, Discus.
These are all fairly easy to fly, have reasonable performance and will
cope with field landings.

2) when you buy a glider you also need a parachute, and if you have any
ambition at all an approved data logger. These cost money... And
parachutes need repacking. My club gets it's chutes done yearly but I
have a suspicion a more frequent repack is required in the US. My own
parachute is a second-hand German one which was inspected and repacked
before I brought it - in Germany parachutes have a finite life, in the
UK it's 'on condition'.

3) the biggest cost for me is insurance, how much yours will cost you
will depend on the value of your glider and how the insurer interprets
your experience.

4) I also have to pay to keep my trailer / glider at the club.

5) in the UK every glider has to have an annual inspection - expensive
at a professional workshop, but many clubs have inspectors who will do
it at a lesser cost.

6) *nothing* should be delaminating / bent. If it is walk away from the
glider - it has lead a hard life and/or not been looked after. IMHO
wear and tear is things like tatty upholstry, and minor gel coat cracks
for example at the corners of the airbrake boxes. Try to take an
inspector with you when you go to look at a glider.

7) you must be comfortable in whatever you buy, otherwise flying it
won't be the pleasure it should be. Sit in various suitable 'first
gliders' and see what seems to fit.

8) if the seat pad isn't Dynafoam (or equivalent) budget to replace it.


Hope that helps.



In message
>,
vic20owner > writes
>
>No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
>have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
>are associated with buying a used glider.
>
>I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
>within my price range). BUT, for future reference, what inspections
>are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
>should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
>structural damage or electrical problems? How much damage should I
>consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
>rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
>is major (wing struts, etc)?
>
>Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
>records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. Is it common to pay
>someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?
>
>Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
>used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>
>Thanks
>-tom
>

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[vaughn]

"vic20owner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?

Buying a series of "wrong" gliders as a way of figuring out what you
want and discovering what fits your style of flying is an expensive and
complicated way to fly! Assuming that you have options near where you live,
consider renting for at least a year after the end of your primary training.
That year would be a great time to vacation at some of the better soaring
sites and get checked out. The result will give you a sort "post grad"
training and expose you in a variety of equipment and a variety of ideas.

Vaughn

[vontresc]

On May 5, 9:39*am, vic20owner > wrote:
> No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
> have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
> are associated with buying a used glider.
>
> I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
> within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
> are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
> should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
> structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
> consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
> rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
> is major (wing struts, etc)?
>
> Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
> records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
> someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?
>
> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>
> Thanks
> -tom

Assuming you are in the Sates, you will need an annual inspection for
your glider. Depending on the condition this can range from $100 to
whatever it costs to remedy any discrepancies. Before writing out a
large check be sure to get a good pre-buy inspection by someone
knowlegable in the type of sailplane you are looking at. Make sure
that there are no outstanding pricy AD that have not been completed on
whatever you are looking at.

Good deals can be found. I got My Ka-6 for way below 10k in airworthy
status with a roadworthy trailer. It may not fe fast glass, but for
soaring in the Midwest it's hard to beat.

Pete

[Ian Burgin]

At 17:55 05 May 2009, vaughn wrote:
>
>"vic20owner" wrote in message
...
>>
>> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
>> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>
> Buying a series of "wrong" gliders as a way of figuring out what
you
>
>want and discovering what fits your style of flying is an expensive and
>complicated way to fly! Assuming that you have options near where you
>live,
>consider renting for at least a year after the end of your primary
>training.
>That year would be a great time to vacation at some of the better soaring

>sites and get checked out. The result will give you a sort "post grad"

>training and expose you in a variety of equipment and a variety of
ideas.
>
>Vaughn
The vast majority of a gliders existance is usualy spent in a trailer.
After the glider itself the condition of the trailer and fittings can be a
major area of problems neglect to examine this at your peril!!!

[Brian Bange[_2_]]

If you don't have a hangar, then you will be assembling and
disassembling each time you fly. Make sure you know the effort
involved in putting the ship together. I know two guys who
bought a Phoebus in partnership, only to sell it the next season
due to it being an absolute bear to assemble. A general rule is
that the easier a ship goes together, the more it flies. Russia's,
Libelle's and PW5's almost fall together. You can get a LAK12
with almost twice the L/D for the same price, but watch your
friends scatter when you open the box.

Brian

At 18:30 05 May 2009, Ian Burgin wrote:
>At 17:55 05 May 2009, vaughn wrote:
>>
>>"vic20owner" wrote in message
>>news:0b8eb208-90ef-4146-a7f3-
...
>>>
>>> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a
first
>>> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>>
>> Buying a series of "wrong" gliders as a way of figuring
out what
>you want

[[email protected]]

On May 5, 10:39*am, vic20owner > wrote:

> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?

Yes.

One way to tell: try to get your CFIG to fly it first. If he balks or
even slightly hesitates....

In general, I would only recommend a homebuilt with excellent
testimonials as to construction quality and flight characteristics by
people other than the builder/seller, at least a few hundred hours on
it, a generally good rep as to type characteristics, etc.

- T8 (former fast/cheap/scary home built glider owner)

[Paul Goulding]

At 17:55 05 May 2009, vaughn wrote:
>
>"vic20owner" wrote in message
...
>>
>> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
>> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>
> Buying a series of "wrong" gliders as a way of figuring out what
you
>
>want and discovering what fits your style of flying is an expensive and
>complicated way to fly! Assuming that you have options near where you
>live,
>consider renting for at least a year after the end of your primary
>training.
>That year would be a great time to vacation at some of the better soaring

>sites and get checked out. The result will give you a sort "post grad"

>training and expose you in a variety of equipment and a variety of
ideas.
>
>Vaughn
>
>

Vaughn,

First buy a glider with good handling qualities - avoid early glass ships
with poor airbrakes.

Buy a glider that is popular with glider pilots ASW19b , cirrus, etc
My advise would be a GROB ASTIR CS .. good handling .. indestructable Gel
coat, most have original 1977 gel. Roomy cockpit and good performance.

As a previous post stated Beware the dodgy trailer!! if its apig to rig
then you will not be getting it out very often! If possible look for a
Lift Top Trailer ...Komet .. Cobra ..Swan etc these are the best for ease
of rigging.

Hope this helps,

Paul
>

[Discus 44]

You pose a good topic for this group. There are going to be several
opinions offered so I will submit my commentary and hope this helps.
If you are serious about purchasing a glider even in a year or so, do
some research and focus in on a specific type of machine. Whether it
is glass, wood, or any other construction, find one to look at, sit
in, ask to help rig the machine. Ask lots of questions of an owner
who regularly fly's that particular model and type. Ask about the
sailplane log book and read the entries about maintenance and
depending on it's AW certificate type find out if there are entries
for each instrument installation, and modification. Purchasing a ship
with bad or sloppy paperwork can be difficult to rectify during an
annual inspection if you inspector goes strictly by the book. Check
to see if the hours are up to date and it has a current annual
inspection. Cheap prices can mean there are large maintenance items
pending. Having someone you pay to inspect and look for issues is
very cheap insurance to avoid potential problems to repair later. If
you do find a good machine, it must have a good trailer and fittings.
Nothing makes a misery more than a poorly organized trailer. The
annual maintenance costs will vary with each machine, be prepared to
spend at least $1000 annually. You may not have to spend this much,
but i'd be suprised if you didn't. after all you will need a better
Vario, or a updated PDA or maybe a flight computer, a new main tire,
or tailwheel, Self rigging dolly and the list goes on and on...


Buy what you can have fun with and stay within your budget,

Hope this helps

TU

[ContestID67[_2_]]

All good answers above.

My suggestion is to ask the seller to have you help them assemble the
glider. This will be telling. It will tell you if YOU will be able
to assemble the glider easily and two people can do it, or if it too
difficult and needs more than two people. It will also tell you how
good the trailer is. To understand the continum of easy to difficult,
help those in your club assemble their gliders. This happens often
for glass (once a flight), but not very often for non-glass (once a
year). Or bring along someone experienced who will give you a rating
1-10. That is a good idea anyway to spot things that you might note
(blinded by visions of a new glider).

Hidden expenses - Not many. Insurance (get a quote) and annual
inspection is obvious. Tape, polish, etc is cheap. What might be a
surprise? An instrument that isn't working. They can be expensive
but this happens surprisingly seldom. But how can you test when you
are on a buying trip and the glider is on the ground short of a test
flight? (unlike powered, you will almost never get a flight before
buying unless its a two place) Answer, you basically can't. So get
the seller to guarantee the instruments are good. Most sellers will
not have an issue with this.

Trailers - Someone told me that the first glider you will buy for the
fuselage and cockpit, and the second for the trailer. For the $10K
range, you will most likely not get a great trailer. The assembly
test above is key to seeing if the trailer is good enough for you. I
love my trailer and its a homebuilt! The only problem is that it is
heavier than the nicer fiberglass/aluminum trailers. How mechanical
are you? You might be able to take an iffy trailer and fix it up
(easier than fixing up an iffy glider's airframe). I went from a
trailer that was OK to rig to one that is really quite easy to rig by
adding a few innovations of my own.

Automatic control hook ups - For $10K you probably won't get this. I
have a DG-101 and it has hotellier. Not too bad. Again, a trial
assembly is useful. DG's are basically easy to rig and easy fly.

My $0.02.

Good Luck,
John DeRosa
http://aviation.derosaweb.net/dg101

[[email protected]]

On May 5, 8:39*am, vic20owner > wrote:
> No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
> have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
> are associated with buying a used glider.
>
> I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
> within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
> are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
> should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
> structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
> consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
> rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
> is major (wing struts, etc)?
>
> Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
> records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
> someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?
>
> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>
> Thanks
> -tom


Tom,
You've read some sound wisdom here. There are a lot of opinions out
there, and some you can take with a grain of salt. The best way to
find the glider for you is to ask questions. You will quickly find
that there are pilots, and then there are armchair pilots. I've found
that when it comes to certain biases about planes, it is generally
they that have never flown one that have the greatest biases. For
example. I was told never to buy a plane with a flying stab..."Too
sensitive", they said. Or, a glider without spoilers is too hard to
land. It's all bunk. It is just a matter of being prepared for the
plane you want to buy. Certainly I wouldn't advise that you to buy a
high aspect ratio super ship with flaps as your first plane. But there
is nothing wrong with getting a little performance for you to grow
into.

I'm sure your instructor would be happy to offer advice on your first
plane. From my very first flight, my instructor knew that I was going
to buy a plane and we talked constantly about it. I considered myself
to be an average student, and I went from a 2-33 to a Grob 103, then
right to a Pik-20. There was a steep learning curve for the Pik-20
becasue I had to book learn it then fly it, as there are no trainers
like it. I adapted, learned and survived. I'm now having the time of
my life!

When shopping for a plane I would also ask to see a current weight and
balance sheet. I got stung on a purchase by just asking whart the max
pilot weight was. The owner told me a number, but after the purchase I
found out that he quoted what was in the POH. After a weight and
balance was done I was shocked to find out that it actually was 35
pounds less than what he said. After adding a parachute I was already
overweight. I sold the plane and became a smarter shopper.

I'm sure you will make a smart purchase that you will enjoy for many
years.

Warren Evans

[vic20owner]

Thanks everyone for the very detailed replies. I have to admit I am
surprised at just how helpful the member of this list are to
beginners. I would prefer a 2 seater so I can fly with
friends,family, or other fellow pilots. At the moment (this may
change with experience) I am primarily interested in a Let Blanik L-23
or L-12 simply because I am flying an L-23 in my lessons and enjoy it
quite a bit.

-tom

[rlovinggood]

I'll reiterate what others have said about the value of a GOOD
trailer. Doesn't matter if the trailer is factory built or
homebuilt. What matters is how it works. How it works at holding the
precious cargo safely. How it works at making rigging and de-rigging
easy. How it works at protecting the glider from the elements. How
it works in towing stability and providing adequate space for "stuff"
like wheel chocks, wash bucket, towout gear, wing stand, tail dolly,
etc.

If the trailer is a knuckle-buster, the soaring experience will NOT BE
FUN.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Pawnee Pilot]

In additon to all the wise words already posted, make absolutely sure
it has a recent weight and balance, and check carefully what the
minimum and maximum pilot weights are.
Some gliders have a very limited range

[Surfer!]

In message >, Paul Goulding
> writes
<snip>
>
>Buy a glider that is popular with glider pilots ASW19b , cirrus, etc
>My advise would be a GROB ASTIR CS .. good handling .. indestructable Gel
>coat, most have original 1977 gel. Roomy cockpit and good performance.

The concrete swan. Watch people develop bad backs & hernias when you
want help rigging it, unless you have one of those one-man rig devices
that take most of the weight!
<Snip>
--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Surfer!]

In message
>,
vic20owner > writes
>
>Thanks everyone for the very detailed replies. I have to admit I am
>surprised at just how helpful the member of this list are to
>beginners. I would prefer a 2 seater so I can fly with
>friends,family, or other fellow pilots. At the moment (this may
>change with experience) I am primarily interested in a Let Blanik L-23
>or L-12 simply because I am flying an L-23 in my lessons and enjoy it
>quite a bit.

When you learnt to drive, did you go out and buy a car like the one you
learnt in? Would you still enjoy driving the type of car you learnt on?
Do you still do the same type of driving you did when you learnt? When
I went solo just under 3 years ago I had barely been out of glide range
of the club. Then I started getting more adventurous and found the
performance limitations of the basic 1-seat gliders we have, so I got my
own bit of glass and am having a ball doing XC flying when conditions
permit.

I'd suggest you try as many different gliders as you can during the next
year before deciding to look for something. Try to have a go with some
more modern types including glass gliders - the Blanik you are flying is
basically a 50-year old design, updated a bit.

And think very hard if it's really appropriate to have a 2-seat glider
to give an occasional joy-ride. It will cost more to insure and
maintain, and be harder to rig. Wanting to do some flying with friends
is fine, but most of the folks I know use the club gliders for that.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[[email protected]]

On May 5, 10:39*am, vic20owner > wrote:
> No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
> have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
> are associated with buying a used glider.
>
> I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
> within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
> are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
> should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
> structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
> consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
> rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
> is major (wing struts, etc)?
>
> Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
> records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
> someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?
>
> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>
> Thanks
> -tom

You can write books regarding this. One man's dream is another's
nightmare. I love to hear things like "concrete swan", etc.

I own an Astir CS and it is no less problem or weight to rig than a
K6, a Standard Cirrus, etc. It is a fantastic ship, you simply have
to kn ow how to rig it rather than muscling it about mindlessly.

This is the internet. Heed and read what you will from this venue but
PLEASE base your purchase on reading books (Piggot, Wander, etc) and
on the advice of fliers you know.

You can get into a first gen glass ship at your price if you look
around quite a bit and you don't mind a ship with aesthetic flaws
(chips, gel craze to an extent, etc). All superficial, at least
should be. Do a thorough investigation of the AD's. The Astir CS,
77, II, III etc are ALL going to have to have the wing spar spiggot AD
done soon by mandate of the FAA. This isn't hype or conjecture now,
its fact. The AD can run in the 4 thousand USD range to complete.

I bought mine from the UK with this particular AD already done. This
wasn't by luck, it was through research. My ship is in fine
mechanical condition, flies like a dream and goes together as easily
as most. Work smarter in rigging, not harder.

The total price including shipping to the states in geting the ship
[ here was under 12k USD. This was a steal but if you ollok and are
flexible and creative you can find a decent ship like this.

650 insurance, 250 annual. I already owned a chute, look for deals
including a chute. For anohter 400 USD I could have gotten a chute
with the deal.

Good luck and remember, dont be hasty and read! You'll hear all kinds
of opinions like flaps.no flaps, no wood/wood, no v-tail/v-tail. I
found that most of the folks who generate such opinions have never
even flown the type of ship they offer negative viewpoints regarding.
They simply restate opinions they hear.

Good luck!

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 14:39 05 May 2009, vic20owner wrote:
>
>I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
>within my price range).

When you say that range, do you mean 10 to 20 Kbucks? If so, then you've
got a lot to choose from. If you really mean around $10K, then what are
you actually seeing out there in the market for that amount? Probably old
wooden gliders (nothing wrong with wood), the Schreder homebuilts, and the
1-26.

I'm assuming this is happening in the US. The 1-26 is what it is, and it
isn't for everybody. Surely you've flown one by now. The advantages are
that it has a great support network, including its own one-class contests,
there are always some for sale and it's easy to sell one when you want
to.

Another consideration - you can get twice the glider for the money if you
have a partner. On the other hand, choosing the right partner is probably
even more important than choosing the right glider. On the gripping hand,
a partner is pretty much obligated to come and get you when you land out.

As others have said, insist on seeing a *recent* weight and balance.
Better yet, bring your own scales or watch while it is weighed. Gliders
never seem to get lighter as they age.

Don't buy a two-seater for your own private use. Use the club gliders or
rent one when you need one. Have you disassembled a two-seat Blanik? If
it's hard to assemble, you won't go cross-country.

(Oh, another advantage of the 1-26, as the fans like to remind everybody:
the retrieves are shorter.)

Jim Beckman

[TonyV[_2_]]

vic20owner wrote:
> ....I am primarily interested in a Let Blanik L-23
> or L-12 simply because I am flying an L-23 in my lessons and enjoy it
> quite a bit.


If you have *any* desire to fly xc, do *not* buy the Blanik - unless
you're guaranteed to land out at an airport and get an aero retrieve
home :-). As the joy of flying is important, so is the joy (or lack
thereof), of rigging and derigging. Also. it's much easier to get one
helper to pull you out of that hay field than the 2 or 3 helpers that
you'd need for the Blanik.

Tony LS6-b "6N"

[Bob]

On May 6, 4:15*pm, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> At 14:39 05 May 2009, vic20owner wrote:
>
>
>
> >I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
> >within my price range). *
>
> When you say that range, do you mean 10 to 20 Kbucks? *If so, then you've
> got a lot to choose from. *If you really mean around $10K, then what are
> you actually seeing out there in the market for that amount? *Probably old
> wooden gliders (nothing wrong with wood), the Schreder homebuilts, and the
> 1-26.
>
> I'm assuming this is happening in the US. *

Even if you are in the US don't discount planes from Europe! The
shipping cost are relatively inexpensive and the number of glass ships
in the 7-10000 € (10-13000$) range is wide. Look at

http://www.segelflug.de/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=&query=category&category=Biete+Clubklasse

If you buy a German registered ship it is still in conformance i.e. no
"Experimental" registration here.

Just a thought and I am sure some will balst this advice but I
married, I can take being blasted!

Bob

[TonyV[_2_]]

vic20owner wrote:
> ....I am primarily interested in a Let Blanik L-23
> or L-12 simply because I am flying an L-23 in my lessons and enjoy it
> quite a bit.


If you have *any* desire to fly xc, do *not* buy the Blanik - unless
you're guaranteed to land out at an airport and get an aero retrieve
home :-). As the joy of flying is important, so is the joy (or lack
thereof), of rigging and derigging. Also. it's much easier to get one
helper to pull you out of that hay field than the 2 or 3 helpers that
you'd need for the Blanik.

Tony LS6-b "6N"

[Bob]

Another thing, K-8's sell from 1500€ (2000$). These planes are still
flyable and have pased inspection in the last year as here in Germany
all planes get inspected yearly by the LVB. I checked about shipping
on 2 months ago and was quoted a price of 2000€ from Bremerhaven to
Charleston.

Just another thought!

Although the K-8 is not and I repeat not as pretty as the 1-26!

Bob

[vic20owner]

Guys, great info ... many points I was not aware of regarding the
Blanik. Obviously I meant L-13 not L-12.. but anyway, sounds like I
have quite a bit more to consider than I had initially thought. Also,
I hadn't considered buying from over seas but this sounds like a good
option also... except for perhaps finding a way to inspect the plane
prior to purchase.

I have not flown a 1-26 yet, only a Grob 103 and the Blanik, however I
would have no problem with a 1-26 aside from the single seat. If I
went that route, I suppose I could rent a glider when i want to take
someone else flying.

-tom

[Mike Ash]

In article
>,
vic20owner > wrote:

> I have not flown a 1-26 yet, only a Grob 103 and the Blanik, however I
> would have no problem with a 1-26 aside from the single seat. If I
> went that route, I suppose I could rent a glider when i want to take
> someone else flying.

In my opinion, and that of a lot of people I've talked to who are much
smarter than me, this is the right way to think about a purchase. A lot
of people say, "I want to buy a two-seater so I can give rides!" But
look around you: how many glider owners do you see who own a two-seater?
Odds are that it's a very small proportion. (At my club the number has
been either 1 or 0 since I joined, as compared to perhaps a dozen
single-seaters.)

What's the point of buying your own glider? Obviously individual reasons
vary, but it's typically so you can take it places, so you can fly it
cross country, so you can stay up as long as you want (and as long as
the weather allows) without someone telling you that your hour is up,
and so you can have something that's nicer than what your local club or
glider rental has to offer.

What happens when you take a passenger? They're usually around your home
field, so no need to take it places. They're rarely interested in flying
cross country. Half the time they get uncomfortable (or sick) if you try
to push past 30-60 minutes airborne. And knowing nothing about gliders,
they'll probably completely fail to appreciate how much better your
machine is than the club's.

It's possible that your situation is different, of course, but if you're
like most people, your best bet is to buy a good single-seater that you
will enjoy for your solo flying, and rent a convenient two-seater for
the relatively rare occasions when you take people for rides.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[[email protected]]

On May 5, 9:39*am, vic20owner > wrote:
> No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
> have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
> are associated with buying a used glider.
>
> I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
> within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
> are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
> should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
> structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
> consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
> rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
> is major (wing struts, etc)?
>
> Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
> records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
> someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?
>
> Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
> used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?
>
> Thanks
> -tom

If you plan to fly alot, buy a single seat ship. If you turn out like
most of the pilots I know, you'll probably fly solo a majority of the
time. For the occasions when you want to take someone for ride, rent
the club two-seater.

Do not base your purchase options solely on the ships you learn in.
There's way too many possibilities for a better fit for your needs
than to be limiting yourself so much.

To help get you started in your research for your first ship, pick up
a hard copy of the sailplane directory. There's a nice section by
Derek Piggot regarding different ships and handling qualities/
suitability for low-timers. It also gives other good information like
cockpit size, rigging difficulty, ground handling, etc. You could
also take a look at Piggot's book "Gliding Safety". It also has some
good information about the suitability of certain ships as a "first
glider".

Good luck!

[Doug Hoffman]

Brian Bange wrote:
> You can get a LAK12
> with almost twice the L/D for the same price, but watch your
> friends scatter when you open the box.

Or you can purchase a LAK-12 with PU finish with proper rigging aids
such that it is easily assembled by one man. Then have a good set of
full covers (such as Jaxida) and leave the ship assembled during soaring
season. Upon arrival at the airport you are "ready to fly" in under 5
minutes.

Yes. I have exactly that ship with that setup for sale. ;-)

Regards,

-Doug

p.s. the LAK-12 is not a beginner's sailplane, though it is easy to fly.

[Chris Reed[_2_]]

Bob wrote:
> Another thing, K-8's sell from 1500€ (2000$). These planes are still
> flyable and have pased inspection in the last year as here in Germany
> all planes get inspected yearly by the LVB. I checked about shipping
> on 2 months ago and was quoted a price of 2000€ from Bremerhaven to
> Charleston.
>


K8s are fun to fly, but very dispiriting if you have any headwind at
all. If you have USD10-20k to spend, and want to do any more than soar
locally around your home airfield, then glass is the only way to go
IMHO. I've had fun flying a K6, in which you can do good XC flying, but
this also becomes too tiring for a new XC pilot - serious XC in a K6 is
for the more experienced pilot.

The advantage of anything with a claimed 38:1 L/D or better (Astir,
ASW15, Libelle, etc) is that you can fly into wind and sample more than
one or two potential thermals. With the K6, K8 and, I suspect, the I-26,
if you don't connect first or second time you're on the ground.

As other posters have said, you will want a glider which (a) has a good
trailer and (b) is easy to rig. Every glider is made easier to rig with
two or more trestles (wood, nails hinges and carpet - dead easy to
build), and one man rigging gear can be really effective if you have
space in the trailer to store it. As an example, I fly a 1968 Open
Cirrus, which has pretty heavy wings and is not thought easy to rig.
With home-made (sub-USD100) rigging gear I can assemble it without help
in up to 15kt winds in about 20 mins. This means I can take it anywhere
to fly it, and even self-retrieve by hitch-hiking back and collecting
the trailer (though I've not yet alienated my friends so much as to need
to do so).

I used to fly a Grob Astir (again, not thought easy to rig), and using
two trestles and a simple wing root dolly two of us could assemble it in
15 mins with almost no lifting. One man rig would have been possible if
the trailer had had space to store the gear.

Leaving the glider assembled is very much over-rated. Apart from
anything else, if you're experienced in putting it together and taking
it apart, then you have no fear of heading off XC because, after all, it
needs to be disassembled somewhere (so why not a field?). I've known
friends who don't fly XC because they're afraid they'll have problems
retrieving the glider if they land out - I know mine will be back in the
trailer in 15 mins, so off I go.

In summary, my advice would be:

a. Buy 38:1 L/D (claimed) or better;

b. A good trailer is essential;

c. Assemble/dissassemble every time you fly until this is no barrier to
flying/going somewhere - make as many rigging aids as you need to make
this easy.

d. Fly it lots! Rig unless it's clearly not soarable. Don't be one of
those pilots who says, mid-afternoon, "it would have been worth rigging
after all". If you don't launch, it's only 15 mins (see (c) above) to
put the glider back in its trailer after all.

[Doug Hoffman]

Chris Reed wrote:

> Leaving the glider assembled is very much over-rated. Apart from
> anything else, if you're experienced in putting it together and taking
> it apart, then you have no fear of heading off XC because, after all, it
> needs to be disassembled somewhere (so why not a field?). I've known
> friends who don't fly XC because they're afraid they'll have problems
> retrieving the glider if they land out

My experience was just the opposite. I had my longest x-country flight
ever in the LAK-12, i.e., I ventured much farther away from home. The
glide and performance are very confidence-inspiring. But I agree with
you that one should have competent rigging/derigging aids, which my LAK
has, so that fear of land-out is removed from the equation. I have no
fear whatsoever of outlanding and field derigging. They are easy to
take apart because precision alignment is not an issue. Reassembling
however is best done on a hard and level surface back at the airport.

Regards,

-Doug

[Bob]

On May 6, 9:32*pm, Chris Reed > wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> > Another thing, K-8's sell from 1500€ (2000$). These planes are still
> > flyable and have pased inspection in the last year as here in Germany
> > all planes get inspected yearly by the LVB. I checked about shipping
> > on 2 months ago and was quoted a price of 2000€ from Bremerhaven to
> > Charleston.
>
> K8s are fun to fly, but very dispiriting if you have any headwind at
> all. If you have USD10-20k to spend, and want to do any more than soar
> locally around your home airfield, then glass is the only way to go
> IMHO. I've had fun flying a K6, in which you can do good XC flying, but
> this also becomes too tiring for a new XC pilot - serious XC in a K6 is
> for the more experienced pilot.
>
Chris

I wasn't advocating the K-8 as much as giving it as an alternative to
the 1-26, same performance for less money.

I agree totally about glass! An Astir, Cirrus, ASW15... The list is
endless and all can be had for 10-20$ with sutable (not perfect but
usable) trailer.

Bob (Who's first plane purchase is a part of a Nimbus 3DT)

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

Dont rule out a share in a higher performance 2 seater. At our club we have
about 8 syndicates with high performance 2 seaters such as AS25, Duo
Discus, DG1000t and Nimbus 3dt. The share price would be about the same
but the running costs, insurance etc are split several ways. The
advantages are that you are very often flying with experienced pilots ( I
can think of several national champions and national team members.)who can
teach and coach you in cross country techniques and advanced soaring. It is
also companionable and one can be flying the aircraft whilst the other is
navigating, sorting out the sandwiches, using the radio etc.

Nigel