Why haven't rental rates come back down?

[Dallas]

Why didn't rental rates come back down with the price of fuel?

Renters saw major increases in rates during the fuel price run up. After
the oil bubble burst my FBO dropped their rates a tiny fraction as the
price of fuel dropped back down to where it used to be. When I asked what
was going on the chief pilot explained that they call around to other FBOs
and their price is competitive.

I called around and found that he was correct, everybody's price is still
up. I also ran a quick study from their online booking system and found
that their rentals were down 60% in December and 54% in January.

My comment to the chief pilot was that airplanes sitting on the ground
aren't doing anybody any good. He ignored me.

So what is going on? Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
and demand?

--
Dallas

[Tim[_8_]]

"Dallas" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Why didn't rental rates come back down with the price of fuel?
>
> Renters saw major increases in rates during the fuel price run up. After
> the oil bubble burst my FBO dropped their rates a tiny fraction as the
> price of fuel dropped back down to where it used to be. When I asked what
> was going on the chief pilot explained that they call around to other FBOs
> and their price is competitive.
>
> I called around and found that he was correct, everybody's price is still
> up. I also ran a quick study from their online booking system and found
> that their rentals were down 60% in December and 54% in January.
>
> My comment to the chief pilot was that airplanes sitting on the ground
> aren't doing anybody any good. He ignored me.
>
> So what is going on? Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
> that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
> and demand?
>
> --

Could be a matter of fuel contracts. I don't things are nearly as simple as
the price of fuel each time they refill their tanks. I know a lot of folks
in the manufacturing business are still trying to use up expensive metal
inventories. I guess it just takes a while.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Dallas > wrote:

> Why didn't rental rates come back down with the price of fuel?
>
> Renters saw major increases in rates during the fuel price run up. After
> the oil bubble burst my FBO dropped their rates a tiny fraction as the
> price of fuel dropped back down to where it used to be. When I asked what
> was going on the chief pilot explained that they call around to other FBOs
> and their price is competitive.
>
> I called around and found that he was correct, everybody's price is still
> up. I also ran a quick study from their online booking system and found
> that their rentals were down 60% in December and 54% in January.
>
> My comment to the chief pilot was that airplanes sitting on the ground
> aren't doing anybody any good. He ignored me.
>
> So what is going on? Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
> that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
> and demand?

At least some of the small operators out here have been in the hole for
quite a while, and they've been effectively "floating a loan" for
renters. When the fuel prices coming back down, their fixed costs
weren't coming down at the same time. If they could get caught up a bit,
they could start bringing their rates down after a delay, but when the
economy dived, that wasn't going to work as people just quit renting and
taking lessons, in some cases because they'd lost their jobs.

It's been a marginal business at the best of times for a lot of them,
and they're succumbing now.

[vaughn]

"Steve Hix" > wrote in message
...
> It's been a marginal business at the best of times for a lot of them,
> and they're succumbing now.

True. Coupled with the truth that most FBO/flight schools are ran by
folks who know far more about aviation than they know about business
management.

Vaughn

[Ross]

Dallas wrote:
> Why didn't rental rates come back down with the price of fuel?
>
> Renters saw major increases in rates during the fuel price run up. After
> the oil bubble burst my FBO dropped their rates a tiny fraction as the
> price of fuel dropped back down to where it used to be. When I asked what
> was going on the chief pilot explained that they call around to other FBOs
> and their price is competitive.
>
> I called around and found that he was correct, everybody's price is still
> up. I also ran a quick study from their online booking system and found
> that their rentals were down 60% in December and 54% in January.
>
> My comment to the chief pilot was that airplanes sitting on the ground
> aren't doing anybody any good. He ignored me.
>
> So what is going on? Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
> that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
> and demand?
>

This is no different that when oil futures go up, gasoline in the ground
skyrockets up immediately to pay for the new gasoline that will be
coming in. When the oil goes down, you do not see the gasoline go back
down as quickly. Even when the oil and gasoline reserves were getting
larger. If you are willing to pay it they will charge that much.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[gpsman]

On May 7, 7:24*pm, Dallas > wrote:
> Why didn't rental rates come back down with the price of fuel?

At my FBO they only increased the wet rate from $72 to 82/hr.
http://www.northstarmso.com/Home/tabid/1013/Default.aspx
-----

- gpsman

[Dallas]

On Fri, 8 May 2009 09:14:43 -0700 (PDT), gpsman wrote:

> At my FBO they only increased the wet rate from $72 to 82/hr.
> http://www.northstarmso.com/Home/tabid/1013/Default.aspx

Wow... I wanna move up there...

My FBO, at the peak, was charging $105 an hour *for a Cessna 150*. When I
started with them a few years ago they were $68 bucks an hour. Now fuel
prices are down to where they were when I started and they charge $95 an
hour... again *for a Cessna 150*.

An old 1970's Cessna 172 costs $120 an hour. It wasn't that long ago you
could get a factory new Skyhawk SP with a G1000 for $120.

--
Dallas

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"vaughn" > wrote:

> "Steve Hix" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It's been a marginal business at the best of times for a lot of them,
> > and they're succumbing now.
>
> True. Coupled with the truth that most FBO/flight schools are ran by
> folks who know far more about aviation than they know about business
> management.

Most small businesses know far more about their product than they do
business management.

We just feel worse when the FBO folds than we do the pizza shop. Usually.

[Zack Sten]

Dallas wrote:
> Why didn't rental rates come back down with the price of fuel?
>
> Renters saw major increases in rates during the fuel price run up. After
> the oil bubble burst my FBO dropped their rates a tiny fraction as the
> price of fuel dropped back down to where it used to be. When I asked what
> was going on the chief pilot explained that they call around to other FBOs
> and their price is competitive.
>
> I called around and found that he was correct, everybody's price is still
> up. I also ran a quick study from their online booking system and found
> that their rentals were down 60% in December and 54% in January.
>
> My comment to the chief pilot was that airplanes sitting on the ground
> aren't doing anybody any good. He ignored me.
>
> So what is going on? Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
> that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
> and demand?
>
At least you are still able to fly. At the FBO/Flight School I have
rented from for more than six years, the entire fleet of aircraft have
been grounded since January. The excuse was that they can no longer pay
for the insurance on those aircraft. So now the only 2 remaining flight
instructors are biding their time manning the front desk. I fully expect
the place to close up completely within 12 months. 30 or 40 renters are
now either not flying at all or being forced to drive 40 miles to the
next closest FBO with rentals.

Zack Sten

[xyzzy]

On May 9, 7:32*pm, Zack Sten > wrote:
> Dallas wrote:
> > Why didn't rental rates come back down with the price of fuel?
>
> > Renters saw major increases in rates during the fuel price run up. *After
> > the oil bubble burst my FBO dropped their rates a tiny fraction as the
> > price of fuel dropped back down to where it used to be. *When I asked what
> > was going on the chief pilot explained that they call around to other FBOs
> > and their price is competitive.
>
> > I called around and found that he was correct, everybody's price is still
> > up. *I also ran a quick study from their online booking system and found
> > that their rentals were down 60% in December and 54% in January.
>
> > My comment to the chief pilot was that airplanes sitting on the ground
> > aren't doing anybody any good. *He ignored me.
>
> > So what is going on? *Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
> > that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
> > and demand?
>
> At least you are still able to fly. At the FBO/Flight School I have
> rented from for more than six years, the entire fleet of aircraft have
> been grounded since January. The excuse was that they can no longer pay
> for the insurance on those aircraft. So now the only 2 remaining flight
> instructors are biding their time manning the front desk. I fully expect
> the place to close up completely within 12 months. 30 or 40 renters are
> now either not flying at all or being forced to drive 40 miles to the
> next closest FBO with rentals.
>
> Zack Sten

that sucks, my sympathies.

Maybe you can buy one of their planes cheap when they go under.

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 7, 4:24*pm, Dallas > wrote:

> So what is going on? *Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
> that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
> and demand?
>
> --
> Dallas

I think that many FBOs were just losing money during the fuel
increases and are now recouping.

-Robert

[Dallas]

On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:13:50 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

> I think that many FBOs were just losing money during the fuel
> increases and are now recouping.

I'm sure you are right, but that's a goofy way to run a business... It
uses the assumption that the same number of rentals will occur at any
price.

Given that they call around to check each other's prices, once everyone's
price has floated upwards, they feel comfortable leaving them there. They
love the new profit margins and no one considers dropping their price.

When the rental volume drops, they blame it on the recession and use that
as further reason to hang on to the increased margins.

They don't understand they've exacerbated the effects of their recession by
choking off demand with higher prices.


--
Dallas

[Bob]

Dallas > wrote in
:

> An old 1970's Cessna 172 costs $120 an hour. It wasn't that long ago
> you could get a factory new Skyhawk SP with a G1000 for $120.
>

My FBO/Flight School charges $95.00 (wet) for a 172, a $3 increase from
last year. 15G
http://skyparkaviatorsclub.com/skypark%2009/main/indexnew2.php

[Dallas]

On Tue, 12 May 2009 20:07:24 GMT, Bob wrote:

> My FBO/Flight School charges $95.00 (wet) for a 172, a $3 increase from
> last year.

Those are sweet prices. I hope you appreciate the good deal you've got
going there.


--
Dallas

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/13/09 10:54, Dallas wrote:
> On Tue, 12 May 2009 20:07:24 GMT, Bob wrote:
>
>> My FBO/Flight School charges $95.00 (wet) for a 172, a $3 increase from
>> last year.
>
> Those are sweet prices. I hope you appreciate the good deal you've got
> going there.
>
>

Not to make you feel worse, but in my club, we rent IFR-certified 172s
for around $80 wet. Plus we have great insurance for a club membership
fee of $19/month.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Bob]

Mark Hansen > wrote in
:

> On 05/13/09 10:54, Dallas wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 20:07:24 GMT, Bob wrote:
>>
>>> My FBO/Flight School charges $95.00 (wet) for a 172, a $3 increase
>>> from last year.
>>
>> Those are sweet prices. I hope you appreciate the good deal you've
>> got going there.
>>
>>
>
> Not to make you feel worse, but in my club, we rent IFR-certified 172s
> for around $80 wet. Plus we have great insurance for a club membership
> fee of $19/month.
>
>

No yearly or monthly membership fees. Club has a bonus program that
actually lowers the prices for members. Deposit at least $300 in your
account, and get a 20% bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to
$79.00. We are also reimbursed for fuel if we have to buy it at another
airport.
One of the busiest flight schools in the area. Several distinguished
graduates, including a several astronauts.

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/14/09 07:06, Bob wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote in
> :
>
>> On 05/13/09 10:54, Dallas wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 20:07:24 GMT, Bob wrote:
>>>
>>>> My FBO/Flight School charges $95.00 (wet) for a 172, a $3 increase
>>>> from last year.
>>>
>>> Those are sweet prices. I hope you appreciate the good deal you've
>>> got going there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not to make you feel worse, but in my club, we rent IFR-certified 172s
>> for around $80 wet. Plus we have great insurance for a club membership
>> fee of $19/month.
>>
>>
>
> No yearly or monthly membership fees. Club has a bonus program that
> actually lowers the prices for members. Deposit at least $300 in your
> account, and get a 20% bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to
> $79.00. We are also reimbursed for fuel if we have to buy it at another
> airport.
> One of the busiest flight schools in the area. Several distinguished
> graduates, including a several astronauts.

Sounds great. What kind of insurance do you get for that? Like I said,
at my club, the members are all "named insureds" on the club policy,
so we are completely covered (1M total/100K per seat, full hull
damage, etc.). The club even pays the deductible in the event of an
accident.

I was very happy to find this club. At other rental outlets in the
area, I was going to have to pay over $100/hr for a plane and still
have to deal with my own insurance.

Regards,

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Kai Rode]

>Club has a bonus program that
>actually lowers the prices for members. Deposit at least $300 in your
>account, and get a 20% bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to
>$79.00.

I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon. I'm
currently renting a 172R for €175 ($237) per hour wet...and it's not even
IFR certified in Germany. It has the U.S. standard IFR avionics but Germany
requires a DME in addition to all the other stuff. When was the last time
you heard "expect localizer/DME approach"? :-(

[Dallas]

On Wed, 13 May 2009 11:10:40 -0700, Mark Hansen wrote:

> Not to make you feel worse, but in my club, we rent IFR-certified 172s
> for around $80 wet.

Well, you made me feel worse anyway. :- )

You guys are proving to me that there hasn't been any structural increase
in the expense of running a flight school/rental operation. These guys in
the DFW area have just colluded to hold their prices up.

--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Thu, 14 May 2009 18:29:55 +0200, Kai Rode wrote:

> I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon. I'm
> currently renting a 172R for ¤175 ($237) per hour wet...

*Now* I feel better.

:- )

--
Dallas

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/14/09 11:23, Dallas wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 11:10:40 -0700, Mark Hansen wrote:
>
>> Not to make you feel worse, but in my club, we rent IFR-certified 172s
>> for around $80 wet.
>
> Well, you made me feel worse anyway. :- )

Hey, you could always move out here and join our club :-)

.... it's not Texas, but ... well whatever :-\

>
> You guys are proving to me that there hasn't been any structural increase
> in the expense of running a flight school/rental operation. These guys in
> the DFW area have just colluded to hold their prices up.
>

Well, your group is probably for-profit, while my club is not. I imagine
that can have quite an impact on the prices. I know our club tries to
maintain stable rental rates even when the fuel prices fluctuate. They
just soak up the difference. During the last run-up in fuel prices, I
think the rate on the IFR 172N went from around $78 to around $86 and
now it's back down to around $80.

Also, our planes are generally pretty old. We do have one newer 172SP
with G1000. It rents for about $130. The other 172s are in the 1979 -
1984 range. But they still fly, and (most) have all the modern avionics,
etc. I've been very happy. At this point, I'm not sure I could afford to
fly otherwise.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Peter Dohm]

"Bob" > wrote in message
. 102...
> Mark Hansen > wrote in
> :
>
>> On 05/13/09 10:54, Dallas wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 20:07:24 GMT, Bob wrote:
>>>
>>>> My FBO/Flight School charges $95.00 (wet) for a 172, a $3 increase
>>>> from last year.
>>>
>>> Those are sweet prices. I hope you appreciate the good deal you've
>>> got going there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not to make you feel worse, but in my club, we rent IFR-certified 172s
>> for around $80 wet. Plus we have great insurance for a club membership
>> fee of $19/month.
>>
>>
>
> No yearly or monthly membership fees. Club has a bonus program that
> actually lowers the prices for members. Deposit at least $300 in your
> account, and get a 20% bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to
> $79.00. We are also reimbursed for fuel if we have to buy it at another
> airport.
> One of the busiest flight schools in the area. Several distinguished
> graduates, including a several astronauts.

Question: How many hours per year do the airplanes fly?

I ask that because I suspect that a lot of the current rental prices are
going into the fixed overhead--and the owners and opperators are probably
still losing money.

Peter

[Mike Ash]

In article >,
Dallas > wrote:

> On Thu, 14 May 2009 18:29:55 +0200, Kai Rode wrote:
>
> > I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon. I'm
> > currently renting a 172R for ¤175 ($237) per hour wet...
>
> *Now* I feel better.
>
> :- )

I'm really sorry to do this, but I just can't resist. I tried to stop,
honestly, but I can't! I paid $32 for a 2.3 hour flight this past
weekend.

I completely understand and accept all of the hate which will probably
flow my way now.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/14/09 14:50, Mike Ash wrote:
> In article >,
> Dallas > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 14 May 2009 18:29:55 +0200, Kai Rode wrote:
>>
>> > I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon. I'm
>> > currently renting a 172R for ¤175 ($237) per hour wet...
>>
>> *Now* I feel better.
>>
>> :- )
>
> I'm really sorry to do this, but I just can't resist. I tried to stop,
> honestly, but I can't! I paid $32 for a 2.3 hour flight this past
> weekend.
>
> I completely understand and accept all of the hate which will probably
> flow my way now.
>

Well, yeah, but see we pay a lot extra for all that engine noise which
you miss out on :-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Dana M. Hague[_2_]]

On Wed, 13 May 2009 11:10:40 -0700, Mark Hansen
> wrote:


>Not to make you feel worse, but in my club, we rent IFR-certified 172s
>for around $80 wet. Plus we have great insurance for a club membership
>fee of $19/month.

Hah! Thanks for reminding me why I fly an ultralight these days...
$8/hour for fuel, $75/month to keep it at the airport...

-Dana

--
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.

[Mike Ash]

In article >,
Mark Hansen > wrote:

> On 05/14/09 14:50, Mike Ash wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Dallas > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 14 May 2009 18:29:55 +0200, Kai Rode wrote:
> >>
> >> > I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon. I'm
> >> > currently renting a 172R for ¤175 ($237) per hour wet...
> >>
> >> *Now* I feel better.
> >>
> >> :- )
> >
> > I'm really sorry to do this, but I just can't resist. I tried to stop,
> > honestly, but I can't! I paid $32 for a 2.3 hour flight this past
> > weekend.
> >
> > I completely understand and accept all of the hate which will probably
> > flow my way now.
> >
>
> Well, yeah, but see we pay a lot extra for all that engine noise which
> you miss out on :-)

I know, and then you pay even more money for fancy headsets to block the
noise out again. It boggles the mind, I tell you. :)

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[Mike Isaksen]

"Zack Sten" > wrote ...
> At least you are still able to fly. At the FBO/Flight School
> I have rented from for more than six years, the entire fleet
> of aircraft have been grounded since January. The excuse
> was that they can no longer pay for the insurance on those
> aircraft.

Here's a "cold water shot of reality" from about eight years ago:

Yearly insurance on a 1979 PA28-181, 1M/100K:
Private owners (2 named pilots) $850.
Club (2 planes/ 28 members) $2800 per plane.
Local FBO (training & rental) $8600

[Martin Hotze[_3_]]

Kai Rode schrieb:
>> Club has a bonus program that
>> actually lowers the prices for members. Deposit at least $300 in your
>> account, and get a 20% bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to
>> $79.00.
>
> I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon.

I have no hope to be 'able' to come back for some years, money (at
*that* exchange rate!) is not that big of an issue ....
Too bad. I am still missing to stand at the rim of the Grand Canyon ... :-(

[Bob Noel[_2_]]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> I am still missing to stand at the rim of the Grand Canyon ... :-(

Well, I haven't made it there yet either. Some day I hope...

[Jon Woellhaf]

You won't be disappointed, Martin! <g>

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> Kai Rode schrieb:
>>> Club has a bonus program that actually lowers the prices for members.
>>> Deposit at least $300 in your account, and get a 20% bonus. This brings
>>> the cost of a 172 down to $79.00.
>>
>> I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon.
>
> I have no hope to be 'able' to come back for some years, money (at *that*
> exchange rate!) is not that big of an issue ....
> Too bad. I am still missing to stand at the rim of the Grand Canyon ...
> :-(

[Ross]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> Kai Rode schrieb:
>>> Club has a bonus program that actually lowers the prices for
>>> members. Deposit at least $300 in your account, and get a 20%
>>> bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to $79.00.
>>
>> I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon.
>
> I have no hope to be 'able' to come back for some years, money (at
> *that* exchange rate!) is not that big of an issue ....
> Too bad. I am still missing to stand at the rim of the Grand Canyon ... :-(

I'll be standing there in the third week of August. Plus several other
National Parks in Utah.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 12, 10:53*am, Dallas > wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:13:50 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > I think that many FBOs were just losing money during the fuel
> > increases and are now recouping.
>
> I'm sure you are right, but that's a goofy way to run a business... * It
> uses the assumption that the same number of rentals will occur at any
> price.

If they were smart in business the first thing they would do is sell
the FBO.

-Robert

[Zack Sten]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> Kai Rode schrieb:
>>> Club has a bonus program that actually lowers the prices for
>>> members. Deposit at least $300 in your account, and get a 20%
>>> bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to $79.00.
>>
>> I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon.
>
> I have no hope to be 'able' to come back for some years, money (at
> *that* exchange rate!) is not that big of an issue ....
> Too bad. I am still missing to stand at the rim of the Grand Canyon ... :-(
I'll be standing at the rim of the Grand Canyon on June 18. Then up to
Zion and Bryce.
Zack Sten

[Zack Sten]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On May 7, 4:24 pm, Dallas > wrote:
>
>> So what is going on? Is there some invisible expense increase at FBOs
>> that's keeping their prices up or do they not understand the laws of price
>> and demand?
>>
>> --
>> Dallas
>
> I think that many FBOs were just losing money during the fuel
> increases and are now recouping.
>
> -Robert
The FBO at has been under new ownership for less than two years and is
currently in default with their mortgage company and the airport's
owners. Their rental planes have all been grounded since January. A year
ago there were five CFI's available; Today only one, and that poor guy
has to work behind the receptionist desk. Anyone interested in
purchasing a potentially viable facility located at a towered airfield
in Pennsylvania?

Zack Sten

[Ross]

Zack Sten wrote:
> Martin Hotze wrote:
>> Kai Rode schrieb:
>>>> Club has a bonus program that actually lowers the prices for
>>>> members. Deposit at least $300 in your account, and get a 20%
>>>> bonus. This brings the cost of a 172 down to $79.00.
>>>
>>> I *really* have to go to the US to do some serious flying soon.
>>
>> I have no hope to be 'able' to come back for some years, money (at
>> *that* exchange rate!) is not that big of an issue ....
>> Too bad. I am still missing to stand at the rim of the Grand Canyon
>> ... :-(
> I'll be standing at the rim of the Grand Canyon on June 18. Then up to
> Zion and Bryce.
> Zack Sten

Zack,

We'll be staying at the north rim cabins. They say it is a 5 minute walk
to the rim. We will have already been to Zion prior to going to the
Grand Canyon. We'll have to compare notes.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI