Relief Tube Housing - Unsafe

[Tim Taylor]

I pulled the seat pan in my Ventus 2 for the first time to find the
relief tube housing to be a 10 inch long sharp ended aluminum tube
epoxied to the bottom of the fuselage. Needless to say if you have
one of these in your glider I encourage you to get rid of it ASAP. I
would hate to see what this would do in a hard landing. I cut mine
off a few inches off the bottom and installed a flexible vinyl tube to
replace the aluminum one. Not sure where this one was installed, but
I believe when the glider was in the UK.


http://picasaweb.google.com/TTaylor07/Ventus2#5348514503738989554

[Jim White[_3_]]

You are more likely to kill yourself by leaving tools in the bottom of your
glider.


At 04:19 18 June 2009, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
>I pulled the seat pan in my Ventus 2 for the first time to find the
>relief tube housing to be a 10 inch long sharp ended aluminum tube
>epoxied to the bottom of the fuselage. Needless to say if you have
>one of these in your glider I encourage you to get rid of it ASAP. I
>would hate to see what this would do in a hard landing. I cut mine
>off a few inches off the bottom and installed a flexible vinyl tube to
>replace the aluminum one. Not sure where this one was installed, but
>I believe when the glider was in the UK.
>
>
>http://picasaweb.google.com/TTaylor07/Ventus2#5348514503738989554
>

[T8]

On Jun 18, 2:45*am, Jim White > wrote:
> You are more likely to kill yourself by leaving tools in the bottom of your
> glider.
>

We had a guy here in the states that was likewise unlikely to get
killed (in part) by the aluminum instrument panel on his spiffy new
German glider.

Given the chance, it's smart to remove potentially lethal objects from
the cockpit area. Good catch, Tim.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Jim White[_3_]]

Look at the pipe cutter in the picture. No one in their right mind uses the
hull of their glider to place tools that they are using or have used. Sure
way to have a 'loose article' accident.

Judging by the picture the tube would appear to have been sensibly fitted
forward of the stick, between the pilots knees. I don't know about you
but I find it hard to fly my glider when sitting in front of the stick let
alone land it.

Jim

At 12:16 18 June 2009, T8 wrote:
>On Jun 18, 2:45=A0am, Jim White wrote:
>> You are more likely to kill yourself by leaving tools in the bottom of
>yo=
>ur
>> glider.
>>
>
>We had a guy here in the states that was likewise unlikely to get
>killed (in part) by the aluminum instrument panel on his spiffy new
>German glider.
>
>Given the chance, it's smart to remove potentially lethal objects from
>the cockpit area. Good catch, Tim.
>
>-Evan Ludeman / T8
>

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jun 18, 5:45*am, Jim White > wrote:
> Look at the pipe cutter in the picture. No one in their right mind uses the
> hull of their glider to place tools that they are using or have used. Sure
> way to have a 'loose article' accident.

I've been on on enough aircraft manufacturing lines to know it's quite
normal to take tools into the hull and put them down when they are not
being used. What makes a glider so special that the same practices
cannot be followed. The important thing is to ensure that all tools
are removed when the job is completed. That can be done by inventory
and/or by careful inspection before closing.

Andy

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 14:16 18 June 2009, Andy wrote:
Remember Apollo 13? Or the AF Concorde that had tools left in the fuel
tank? Better not to leave them there at all.

Jim
>
>I've been on on enough aircraft manufacturing lines to know it's quite
>normal to take tools into the hull and put them down when they are not
>being used. What makes a glider so special that the same practices
>cannot be followed. The important thing is to ensure that all tools
>are removed when the job is completed. That can be done by inventory
>and/or by careful inspection before closing.
>
>Andy
>
>

[Andy[_9_]]

On Jun 18, 5:45*am, Jim White > wrote:
> Look at the pipe cutter in the picture. No one in their right mind uses the
> hull of their glider to place tools that they are using or have used. Sure
> way to have a 'loose article' accident.
>
> Judging by the picture the tube would appear to have been sensibly fitted
> forward of the stick, between the pilots knees. I don't know about you
> but I find it hard to fly my glider when sitting in front of the stick let
> alone land it.
>
> Jim

I'm not 100% familiar with the V2 innards, but it seems to me that the
photo was taken looking forward and that the relief tube was fitted
aft of the stick. I also can't tell whether it was an aftermarket job
or done at the factory. It looks like one of those "pipe-within-a-
pipe" deals that allows you to extend a rigid relief tube down into
the airstream far enough that your pee doesn't get all over the tail
boom, though the inner pipe wouldn't be depicted in this picture if
that's the design. If that was the intent, making the outer tube
flexible could make it hard to make the inner tube slide and peeing
directly into the outer tube that ends flush with the outside fuselage
shell might lead to having pee stream down the underside of the
glider. It's hard to tell from the picture, but that's what it looked
like. In any case installing a spear pointed up into the cockpit
seems like a good way to put your eye out, though the geometry of that
coming to pass would mean you'd have a whole lot of other things
really badly mangled already.

Maybe I'm not in my right mind, but the area under my seat pan is
flat, smooth an concave, so I generally put most of my tools, screws,
etc there then inspect that I take them all out before putting the pan
back in. Putting parts and tools on the ground is begging to lose them
or kick them around - but I don't generally have a nice shop to work
in so dirt and wind and such are bigger concerns for me, On my glider
you'd have to crack the seat pan to get it back in place on top of
something as big as a pipe cutter.

Tim, maybe you can explain the photo a tad more. And please confirm
for everyone that you have located the pipe cutter so we can stop
worrying. :-)

9B

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 18, 9:30*am, Jim White > wrote:
> At 14:16 18 June 2009, Andy wrote:
> Remember Apollo 13? Or the AF Concorde that had tools left in the fuel
> tank? Better not to leave them there at all.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> >I've been on on enough aircraft manufacturing lines to know it's quite
> >normal to take tools into the hull and put them down when they are not
> >being used. *What makes a glider so special that the same practices
> >cannot be followed. *The important thing is to ensure that all tools
> >are removed when the job is completed. That can be done by inventory
> >and/or by careful inspection before closing.
>
> >Andy
>
>

Can the loose tools police enlighten us more?

I remember damaged insulation from overheated wiring on Apollo 13 and
I don't recall anything specific about tools on Apollo 13 causing
problems. I don't remember an incident with tools left in Concorde
fuel tanks. If you mean Air France Flight 4590 the finger was pointed
at FOD from a DC-10 and design issues of the Concorde.

Darryl

[Ian]

On 18 June, 13:45, Jim White > wrote:
> Look at the pipe cutter in the picture. No one in their right mind uses the
> hull of their glider to place tools that they are using or have used. Sure
> way to have a 'loose article' accident.

The trick is to "take them out again".

Ian

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Jun 18, 5:45*am, Jim White > wrote:
> Look at the pipe cutter in the picture. No one in their right mind uses the
> hull of their glider to place tools that they are using or have used. Sure
> way to have a 'loose article' accident.

>
> Jim

Commit me now. I do so regularly. I do, however, remove them before
reassembling the interior.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Jun 18, 11:01*am, Ian > wrote:

> The trick is to "take them out again".

Yup, that's always worked for me as well.

[Tim Taylor]

On Jun 18, 10:42*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Jun 18, 5:45*am, Jim White > wrote:
>
> > Look at the pipe cutter in the picture. No one in their right mind uses the
> > hull of their glider to place tools that they are using or have used. Sure
> > way to have a 'loose article' accident.
>
> > Judging by the picture the tube would appear to have been sensibly fitted
> > forward of the stick, between the pilots knees. I don't know about you
> > but I find it hard to fly my glider when sitting in front of the stick let
> > alone land it.
>
> > Jim
>
> I'm not 100% familiar with the V2 innards, but it seems to me that the
> photo was taken looking forward and that the relief tube was fitted
> aft of the stick. I also can't tell whether it was an aftermarket job
> or done at the factory. *It looks like one of those "pipe-within-a-
> pipe" deals that allows you to extend a rigid relief tube down into
> the airstream far enough that your pee doesn't get all over the tail
> boom, though the inner pipe wouldn't be depicted in this picture if
> that's the design. *If that was the intent, making the outer tube
> flexible could make it hard to make the inner tube slide and peeing
> directly into the outer tube that ends flush with the outside fuselage
> shell might lead to having pee stream down the underside of the
> glider. *It's hard to tell from the picture, but that's what it looked
> like. *In any case installing a spear pointed up into the cockpit
> seems like a good way to put your eye out, though the geometry of that
> coming to pass would mean you'd have a whole lot of other things
> really badly mangled already.
>
> Maybe I'm not in my right mind, but the area under my seat pan is
> flat, smooth an concave, so I generally put most of my tools, screws,
> etc there then inspect that I take them all out before putting the pan
> back in. Putting parts and tools on the ground is begging to lose them
> or kick them around - but I don't generally have a nice shop to work
> in so dirt and wind and such are bigger concerns for me, On my glider
> you'd have to crack the seat pan to get it back in place on top of
> something as big as a pipe cutter.
>
> Tim, maybe you can explain the photo a tad more. *And please confirm
> for everyone that you have located the pipe cutter so we can stop
> worrying. *:-)
>
> 9B

Thanks Andy,

Yes the picture is taken from the back looking forward. I wasn't too
worried about putting my eye out, but if the seat pan collapsed there
would be major damage to many other body parts. I decided I would not
want to compound the damage from an accident with a spear between my
legs.

All tools were accounted for and the entire fuselage was vacuumed out
before reassembly. The vinyl tubing I added is rigid enough to act as
a guide of the relief tube to run through without any issues. If it
proved to be too flexible in the long run it will be easy to add some
PVC tubing with a flexible vinyl or rubber junction so it will bend in
the event of an accident.

TT

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 16:30 18 June 2009, Jim White wrote:
>Remember Apollo 13? Or the AF Concorde that had tools left in the fuel
>tank? Better not to leave them there at all.

This is sort of a cliche, but it actually happened with one of our club's
1-26s. They had been making some kind of repairs on a wing that required
riveting new sheet metal on. When the wing was picked up to move it back
to the glider, there was a God-awful thump from inside. The glider went
through the rest of its life with yet another patch just ahead of the
aileron where they had to make an access hole to get the bucking bar out.

Jim Beckman