Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

[ContestID67[_2_]]

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2009/db0608/DA-09-1258A1.doc

FYI - One of our proactive members found this article about an FCC
fine of $9,000 against the Texas Soaring Association (TSA) in Lubbock
TX because their airport's radio license had expired. It appears what
tripped this trigger was the TSA complaining to the FCC about
"interference" on 123.3. Boy, did that backfire.

We looked into it and my own gliderport's license had also expired -
which we are *QUICKLY* fixing. You might want to look into that at
your port.

It is unclear to me if the license relates to 123.3, or the frequency
on the sectional or a general FCC license that a particular airport is
legal to broadcast, or a combination. I also don't understand if this
has to do with the base station, handhelds, airplane radio or totally
unrelated to the hardware being used. I do know that my own use of a
radio in my glider no longer requires an individual license.

I'd also like to understand what controls the use of 123.3 (or 123.5)
which I have been told is for "training" use. True? By whom? The
FAA? FCC? Note that the FCC complaint says that TSA complained about
interference from "commercial jets inbound to Lubbock, Texas" (on
123.3) which surprised me.

Any information about how the FAA/FCC handles airport licensing would
be interesting.

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Correction, TSA is located in "Midlothian, Texas, which is itself at
the southern edge of the Dallas-Fort Worth area" according to their
web site http://www.texassoaring.org/.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jun 24, 2:54*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2009/db0608/DA-09-12...
>
> FYI - One of our proactive members found this article about an FCC
> fine of $9,000 against the Texas Soaring Association (TSA) in Lubbock
> TX because their airport's radio license had expired. *It appears what
> tripped this trigger was the TSA complaining to the FCC about
> "interference" on 123.3. *Boy, did that backfire.
>
> We looked into it and my own gliderport's license had also expired -
> which we are *QUICKLY* fixing. *You might want to look into that at
> your port.
>
> It is unclear to me if the license relates to 123.3, or the frequency
> on the sectional or a general FCC license that a particular airport is
> legal to broadcast, or a combination. *I also don't understand if this
> has to do with the base station, handhelds, airplane radio or totally
> unrelated to the hardware being used. *I do know that my own use of a
> radio in my glider no longer requires an individual license.
>
> I'd also like to understand what controls the use of 123.3 (or 123.5)
> which I have been told is for "training" use. *True? *By whom? *The
> FAA? *FCC? *Note that the FCC complaint says that TSA complained about
> interference from "commercial jets inbound to Lubbock, Texas" (on
> 123.3) which surprised me.
>
> Any information about how the FAA/FCC handles airport licensing would
> be interesting.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> - John DeRosa

AC90-50D, Aircraft Support is the FAA designated use for both.

We verify our license at the first regular meeting of the newly
elected board annually. Make it an order of business item for seating
all new boards. IIRC ground stations licenses are good for 10 years.
For those clubs not having a club house/hangar where you hold the
meetings, make it a January agenda item.

Frank Whiteley

[T8]

On Jun 24, 4:54*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2009/db0608/DA-09-12...
>
> FYI - One of our proactive members found this article about an FCC
> fine of $9,000 against the Texas Soaring Association (TSA) in Lubbock
> TX because their airport's radio license had expired. *It appears what
> tripped this trigger was the TSA complaining to the FCC about
> "interference" on 123.3. *Boy, did that backfire.
>
> We looked into it and my own gliderport's license had also expired -
> which we are *QUICKLY* fixing. *You might want to look into that at
> your port.
>
> It is unclear to me if the license relates to 123.3, or the frequency
> on the sectional or a general FCC license that a particular airport is
> legal to broadcast, or a combination. *I also don't understand if this
> has to do with the base station, handhelds, airplane radio or totally
> unrelated to the hardware being used. *I do know that my own use of a
> radio in my glider no longer requires an individual license.
>
> I'd also like to understand what controls the use of 123.3 (or 123.5)
> which I have been told is for "training" use. *True? *By whom? *The
> FAA? *FCC? *Note that the FCC complaint says that TSA complained about
> interference from "commercial jets inbound to Lubbock, Texas" (on
> 123.3) which surprised me.
>
> Any information about how the FAA/FCC handles airport licensing would
> be interesting.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> - John DeRosa

In the name of deficit reduction, I move we shutter the FCC.

-T8

[glidergeek]

For everybody that's always thought how do they know?

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2008]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR87]

[Page 223-224]

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 87_AVIATION SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart K_Aviation Support Stations


Sec. 87.319 Scope of service.

Aviation support stations are used for the following types of
operations:
(a) Pilot training;
(b) Coordination of soaring activities between gliders, tow
aircraft
and land stations;
(c) Coordination of activities between free balloons or lighter-
than-air aircraft and ground stations;
(d) Coordination between aircraft and aviation service
organizations
located on an airport concerning the safe and efficient portal-to-
portal
transit of the aircraft, such as the types of fuel and ground
services
available; and
(e) Promotion of safety of life and property.

[[Page 224]]


Sec. 87.321 Supplemental eligibility.

Each applicant must certify as to its eligibility under the scope
of
service described above.

[63 FR 68958, Dec. 14, 1998]


Sec. 87.323 Frequencies.

(a) 121.500 MHz: Emergency and distress only.
(b) The frequencies 121.950, 123.300 and 123.500 MHz are
available
for assignment to aviation support stations used for pilot training,
coordination of lighter-than-air aircraft operations, or coordination
of
soaring or free ballooning activities. Applicants for 121.950 MHz
must
coordinate their proposal with the appropriate FAA Regional Spectrum
Management Office. The application must specify the FAA Region
notified
and the date notified. Applicants for aviation support land stations
may
request frequency(ies) based upon their eligibility although the
Commission reserves the right to specify the frequency of assignment.
Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300 and 123.500
MHz. However, aviation support mobile stations must operate only on a
noninterference basis to communications between aircraft and aviation
support land stations.
(c) The frequency 122.775 MHz and, secondary to aeronautical
multicom stations, the frequency 122.850 MHz are available for
assignment to aviation support stations. These frequencies may be
used
for communications between aviation service organizations and
aircraft
in the airport area. These frequencies must not be used for air
traffic
control purposes or to transmit information pertaining to runway,
wind
or weather conditions.
(d) The frequency 3281.0 kHz is available for assignment to
aviation
support stations used for coordination of lighter-than-air aircraft
operations.

[53 FR 28940, Aug. 1, 1988, as amended at 63 FR 68958, Dec. 14, 1998]

[glidergeek]

Here's some more good reading about frequency allocation:
http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/aviation.html

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jun 24, 2:54*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2009/db0608/DA-09-12...
>
> FYI - One of our proactive members found this article about an FCC
> fine of $9,000 against the Texas Soaring Association (TSA) in Lubbock
> TX because their airport's radio license had expired. *It appears what
> tripped this trigger was the TSA complaining to the FCC about
> "interference" on 123.3. *Boy, did that backfire.
>
> We looked into it and my own gliderport's license had also expired -
> which we are *QUICKLY* fixing. *You might want to look into that at
> your port.
>
> It is unclear to me if the license relates to 123.3, or the frequency
> on the sectional or a general FCC license that a particular airport is
> legal to broadcast, or a combination. *I also don't understand if this
> has to do with the base station, handhelds, airplane radio or totally
> unrelated to the hardware being used. *I do know that my own use of a
> radio in my glider no longer requires an individual license.
>
> I'd also like to understand what controls the use of 123.3 (or 123.5)
> which I have been told is for "training" use. *True? *By whom? *The
> FAA? *FCC? *Note that the FCC complaint says that TSA complained about
> interference from "commercial jets inbound to Lubbock, Texas" (on
> 123.3) which surprised me.
>
> Any information about how the FAA/FCC handles airport licensing would
> be interesting.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> - John DeRosa

I would think that the absence of complaints against TSA for use of
the frequency during the violation period would be grounds to appeal
for a significant reduction in the forfeiture. Note these are
proposed forfeitures. TSA is also a 501c(3) charitable organization.
That means that their corporate purpose includes a defined public
benefit. Said forfeiture would impact their ability to fully meet
that goal, regardless of ability to pay.

Frank Whiteley

[r.t.s.]

I pulled this from the FCC website:

Licensing

On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket
No. 96-82 (text) eliminating the individual licensing requirement for
all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general
aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not
need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency
locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically.

I guess TSA must have a base station. I am not sure what type of
license is needed for hand-held radios.
Someone should contact TSA and find out the details.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 25, 5:52*pm, "r.t.s." > wrote:
> I pulled this from the FCC website:
>
> Licensing
>
> On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket
> No. 96-82 (text) eliminating the individual licensing requirement for
> all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general
> aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not
> need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency
> locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically.
>
> I guess TSA must have a base station. *I am *not sure what type of
> license is needed for hand-held radios.
> Someone should contact TSA and find out the details.

Did you read the link provided? That's a lot of details already. They
unfortunately made two mistakes, the first was not renewing the
license, the second of which was right up there with the Pegase owner
asking the FAA about airframe hours and inspections. I think there is
a moral here about not asking government bureaucracies for help unless
you know your ass is well covered.

Information on base station licensing and handhelds etc. is all
documented on the FCC web site. e.g.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations&id=aircraft_stations

To operate a handheld or car mounted mobile etc. outside an aircraft,
e.g. by a glider ground crew, you need the same license as TSA did not
renew i.e. a Ground Station Authorization for Aviation Support
Services. I was goign to start a submission for a handheld to see how
painful that was on the FCC ULS website, but it's down for nightly
maintenance... (I presume the only justification for how bad ULS is as
a Web application is the development went to the lowest bidder).


Darryl

[BT]

Does anyone know what the Fee is for the 10yr FCC certificate application
for a base station or mobile mount?

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 25, 5:52 pm, "r.t.s." > wrote:
> I pulled this from the FCC website:
>
> Licensing
>
> On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket
> No. 96-82 (text) eliminating the individual licensing requirement for
> all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general
> aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not
> need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency
> locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically.
>
> I guess TSA must have a base station. I am not sure what type of
> license is needed for hand-held radios.
> Someone should contact TSA and find out the details.

Did you read the link provided? That's a lot of details already. They
unfortunately made two mistakes, the first was not renewing the
license, the second of which was right up there with the Pegase owner
asking the FAA about airframe hours and inspections. I think there is
a moral here about not asking government bureaucracies for help unless
you know your ass is well covered.

Information on base station licensing and handhelds etc. is all
documented on the FCC web site. e.g.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations&id=aircraft_stations

To operate a handheld or car mounted mobile etc. outside an aircraft,
e.g. by a glider ground crew, you need the same license as TSA did not
renew i.e. a Ground Station Authorization for Aviation Support
Services. I was goign to start a submission for a handheld to see how
painful that was on the FCC ULS website, but it's down for nightly
maintenance... (I presume the only justification for how bad ULS is as
a Web application is the development went to the lowest bidder).


Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 27, 4:18*pm, "BT" > wrote:
> Does anyone know what the Fee is for the 10yr FCC certificate application
> for a base station or mobile mount?

[snip]

Or handheld or *any* air-band radio used outside a registered domestic
aircraft the 10 year fee is

$215.00
$115.00 for non-profit

All that info and more is a click or two from the URL I gave before.

Sign up on the FCC web site and get an "FRN" (FCC Registraion Number)
so you can use the online ULS (Universal Licensing System) for online
licensing.

Again start at http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations&id=aircraft_stations

While I like to complain about ULS it is better than snail mail.

Darryl

[ContestID67[_2_]]

One of our members checked with the FCC on whether we need to license
our handhelds (used by the club for operations) as we don't have a
base station.

The working on the FCC web site says, "You are required to have a
separate Ground Station license to operate your radio on the ground."
It doesn't make a distinction between handheld or base station, only
that it is being operated on the ground (versus the air). There must
be a division of responsibility between the FAA and FCC on operating a
radio in the air versus on the ground.

Anyway, from our club's standpoint we need to renew our license and
are working on that. But from my personal standpoint, do I need a
license to use my handheld on the ground? How about a radio in a
chase vehicle? I suppose I am a much more difficult target to hit
than a fixed base operator.

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

[ContestID67[_2_]]

You can search for your license status at
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/LicArchive/searchLicense.jsp.

[ContestID67[_2_]]

Sorry for the multiple posts. Just found this at;
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=about&id=ground_stations.
Note that gliders are specifically mentioned.

"Aviation support stations are airborne and ground stations used for
pilot training, soaring (with gliders), or free ballooning."

Now, what does that mean?

- John

===============

About Ground Stations


The FCC regulates the Aviation Services in cooperation with the
Federal Aviation Administration. Wherever aviation services are
provided in US territory, both FAA and FCC requirements must be met by
anyone who uses aviation radio. The FCC authorizes different types of
aviation ground stations for air-to-ground operations. Flight safety
is the primary purpose of all Aviation Services.

Aeronautical and Fixed ServiceAeronautical advisory stations, also
called Unicom stations, are land stations used for advising pilots of
private aircraft about local airport conditions. They are not used to
control aircraft in flight.

Aeronautical multicom stations provide communications between private
aircraft and a ground facility for temporary, seasonal, or emergency
activities like crop dusting, livestock herding, forest firefighting,
aerial advertising, parachute jumping, etc. In some cases, multicom
stations may be authorized to serve as unicom stations.

Aeronautical enroute stations are used by aircraft owners or operators
for operational control and flight management of their aircraft. They
have access to these stations by cooperative arrangement, but any
pilot with a flight emergency may use these stations without prior
agreement.

Flight test stations are airborne and ground stations used only to
pass information or instructions concerning tests of aircraft or
airborne components.

Aviation support stations are airborne and ground stations used for
pilot training, soaring (with gliders), or free ballooning.

Airport control tower stationsprovide all necessary communications
between an airport control tower and all arriving and departing
aircraft. They are used to maintain an efficient flow of traffic for
aircraft taxiing, landing, and takeoff and for all vehicle movement on
the airfield. For vehicle movement on the airfield, airport control
tower stations communicate with aeronautical utility mobile stations

Automatic weather observation stations provide updated weather
broadcasts for a specific landing area.

Aviation Auxiliary GroupAeronautical search and rescue stations are
used for air-to-ground communications during actual or practice search
and rescue operations, or for search and rescue training.

Aeronautical utility mobile stations are installed in vehicles that
provide maintenance, fire and crash protection, freight handling, or
other group support normally under control tower direction at an
airport. They are used for both operational and emergency
communications.

[brianDG303[_2_]]

OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;

AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed

Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.

There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.

Brian

[Mike Schumann]

Is there any way we can get the SSA to get a single blanket FCC license to
cover all SSA members using handhelds during glider operations? This would
be a great additional member benefit!!!

Mike Schumann

"brianDG303" > wrote in message
...
>
> OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
> number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
> the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
> email) and there are three likely choices;
>
> AA- Aviation Auxiliary
> AC- Aircraft
> AF- Aeronautical and Fixed
>
> Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
> Required.
> AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
> Game Over.
>
> There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
> does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
> to issue licenses.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>

[Jim Britton]

At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:
>
>OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
>number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
>the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
>email) and there are three likely choices;
>
>AA- Aviation Auxiliary
>AC- Aircraft
>AF- Aeronautical and Fixed
>
>Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
>Required.
>AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
>Game Over.
>
>There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
>does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
>to issue licenses.
>
>Brian
>

I did a bit better than you.
I eventually got AA to work.
Got through the first few pages.
But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.

Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
handheld outside of an aircraft?

Jim

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 28, 5:30*pm, Jim Britton > wrote:
> At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
> >number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
> >the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
> >email) and there are three likely choices;
>
> >AA- Aviation Auxiliary
> >AC- Aircraft
> >AF- Aeronautical and Fixed
>
> >Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
> >Required.
> >AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
> >Game Over.
>
> >There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
> >does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
> >to issue licenses.
>
> >Brian
>
> I did a bit better than you.
> I eventually got AA to work.
> Got through the first few pages.
> But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.
>
> Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
> handheld outside of an aircraft?
>
> Jim

Hi Jim

I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
as you say I don't have a need.

BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.

And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
(or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
and I think that is entirely OK.

And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.


Darryl

[Mike Schumann]

Back in 1996, the FCC issued an NPRM to address the issue of licensing
handheld radios for ground personal to communicate with aircraft (see
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/fcc96407.txt). The proposal was
to permit an unlimited number of handhelds to be included in a single
license to minimize the administrative burden on the FCC and the public.

I don't know if this was adopted or not. If it was, it should be possible
for a club to get a single 10 year license for $115 (assuming the club is a
non-profit), that would cover all of its members at that location. The
question then becomes, can this license cover radios being used on a
retrieve away from the airport? How about temporary remote operations at
another airport?

I suspect that 95% of soaring clubs, glider pilots and/or retrieve crews
that use handhelds on the ground are currently not licensed, and have no
idea that licensing is required. Given what happened to the TSA, this is an
issue that can't be swept under the carpet.

I am willing to bet that the FCC would be very willing to come up with a
reasonable solution to handheld aviation radio licensing that would limit
operations to legitimate glider related uses, without subjecting the FCC and
the glider community to the cost and administrative burden associated with
issuing a separate license to every single handheld radio.

Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.

One way or the other, this issue needs to be addressed. Since this is
affects the entire glider community, the SSA should be involved in coming up
with a solution, regardless of whether or not it becomes the holder of the
FCC license or comes up with some other solution.

Mike Schumann

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 28, 5:30 pm, Jim Britton > wrote:
> At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
> >number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
> >the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
> >email) and there are three likely choices;
>
> >AA- Aviation Auxiliary
> >AC- Aircraft
> >AF- Aeronautical and Fixed
>
> >Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
> >Required.
> >AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
> >Game Over.
>
> >There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
> >does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
> >to issue licenses.
>
> >Brian
>
> I did a bit better than you.
> I eventually got AA to work.
> Got through the first few pages.
> But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.
>
> Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
> handheld outside of an aircraft?
>
> Jim

Hi Jim

I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
as you say I don't have a need.

BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.

And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
(or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
and I think that is entirely OK.

And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.


Darryl

[Wayne Paul]

Has anyone contacted a friend who is part of the "Balloon Community" to see how they handle this situation? It seems that their need for a resolution would be greater then ours. Maybe they have worked out something with the FCC that we could emulate.


"Mike Schumann" > wrote in message ...
> Back in 1996, the FCC issued an NPRM to address the issue of licensing
> handheld radios for ground personal to communicate with aircraft (see
> http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/fcc96407.txt). The proposal was
> to permit an unlimited number of handhelds to be included in a single
> license to minimize the administrative burden on the FCC and the public.
>
> I don't know if this was adopted or not. If it was, it should be possible
> for a club to get a single 10 year license for $115 (assuming the club is a
> non-profit), that would cover all of its members at that location. The
> question then becomes, can this license cover radios being used on a
> retrieve away from the airport? How about temporary remote operations at
> another airport?
>
> I suspect that 95% of soaring clubs, glider pilots and/or retrieve crews
> that use handhelds on the ground are currently not licensed, and have no
> idea that licensing is required. Given what happened to the TSA, this is an
> issue that can't be swept under the carpet.
>
> I am willing to bet that the FCC would be very willing to come up with a
> reasonable solution to handheld aviation radio licensing that would limit
> operations to legitimate glider related uses, without subjecting the FCC and
> the glider community to the cost and administrative burden associated with
> issuing a separate license to every single handheld radio.
>
> Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
> license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
> straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
> this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.
>
> One way or the other, this issue needs to be addressed. Since this is
> affects the entire glider community, the SSA should be involved in coming up
> with a solution, regardless of whether or not it becomes the holder of the
> FCC license or comes up with some other solution.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Jun 28, 5:30 pm, Jim Britton > wrote:
>> At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
>> >number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
>> >the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
>> >email) and there are three likely choices;
>>
>> >AA- Aviation Auxiliary
>> >AC- Aircraft
>> >AF- Aeronautical and Fixed
>>
>> >Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
>> >Required.
>> >AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
>> >Game Over.
>>
>> >There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
>> >does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
>> >to issue licenses.
>>
>> >Brian
>>
>> I did a bit better than you.
>> I eventually got AA to work.
>> Got through the first few pages.
>> But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.
>>
>> Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
>> handheld outside of an aircraft?
>>
>> Jim
>
> Hi Jim
>
> I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
> currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
> as you say I don't have a need.
>
> BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.
>
> And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
> need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
> (or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
> at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
> on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
> aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
> is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
> vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
> and I think that is entirely OK.
>
> And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
> the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
> and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
> transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
> license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
> the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
> what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
> license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
> ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
> controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
> individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
> earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.
>
>
> Darryl
>
>

[Mike Schumann]

Here is the applicable FCC regulation governing ground stations for both
gliders and balloons:

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title47/47-5.0.1.1.2.11.html

There are two problems with this that need to be addressed:

1. It appears that each handheld radio must be covered by a license either
issued separately to each individual radio owner or possibly under an
umbrella license issued to an FBO, club or other organization like the SSA.
2. A license issued under 47 CFR Subpart K does not appear to authorize a
handheld ground user to communicate with the tow plane and/or glider using
the CATF frequency to support and coordinate flight operations. A retrieve
crew will presumably communicate on 123.3 as contemplated by this regulation
when on the road. However, without two radios, a glider operating in the
vicinity of an airfield will be exclusively monitoring the CATF frequency,
so the ground support crew needs to be able to communicate on that frequency
as well.

If you look at the FCC license database, it appears that there are a very
large number of licenses that were issued to FBOs, flying clubs, and
individual aircraft owners, which were not renewed after 1996, when the
requirement for FCC licenses for radios in aircraft was eliminated. I
suspect that most pilots are unaware that this change affected only radios
used within aircraft, and did not change the regulations for ground based
radios.

Mike Schumann


"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
Has anyone contacted a friend who is part of the "Balloon Community" to see
how they handle this situation? It seems that their need for a resolution
would be greater then ours. Maybe they have worked out something with the
FCC that we could emulate.


"Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
...
> Back in 1996, the FCC issued an NPRM to address the issue of licensing
> handheld radios for ground personal to communicate with aircraft (see
> http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/fcc96407.txt). The proposal
> was
> to permit an unlimited number of handhelds to be included in a single
> license to minimize the administrative burden on the FCC and the public.
>
> I don't know if this was adopted or not. If it was, it should be possible
> for a club to get a single 10 year license for $115 (assuming the club is
> a
> non-profit), that would cover all of its members at that location. The
> question then becomes, can this license cover radios being used on a
> retrieve away from the airport? How about temporary remote operations at
> another airport?
>
> I suspect that 95% of soaring clubs, glider pilots and/or retrieve crews
> that use handhelds on the ground are currently not licensed, and have no
> idea that licensing is required. Given what happened to the TSA, this is
> an
> issue that can't be swept under the carpet.
>
> I am willing to bet that the FCC would be very willing to come up with a
> reasonable solution to handheld aviation radio licensing that would limit
> operations to legitimate glider related uses, without subjecting the FCC
> and
> the glider community to the cost and administrative burden associated with
> issuing a separate license to every single handheld radio.
>
> Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
> license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
> straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
> this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.
>
> One way or the other, this issue needs to be addressed. Since this is
> affects the entire glider community, the SSA should be involved in coming
> up
> with a solution, regardless of whether or not it becomes the holder of the
> FCC license or comes up with some other solution.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Jun 28, 5:30 pm, Jim Britton > wrote:
>> At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
>> >number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
>> >the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
>> >email) and there are three likely choices;
>>
>> >AA- Aviation Auxiliary
>> >AC- Aircraft
>> >AF- Aeronautical and Fixed
>>
>> >Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
>> >Required.
>> >AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
>> >Game Over.
>>
>> >There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
>> >does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
>> >to issue licenses.
>>
>> >Brian
>>
>> I did a bit better than you.
>> I eventually got AA to work.
>> Got through the first few pages.
>> But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.
>>
>> Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
>> handheld outside of an aircraft?
>>
>> Jim
>
> Hi Jim
>
> I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
> currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
> as you say I don't have a need.
>
> BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.
>
> And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
> need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
> (or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
> at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
> on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
> aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
> is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
> vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
> and I think that is entirely OK.
>
> And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
> the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
> and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
> transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
> license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
> the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
> what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
> license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
> ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
> controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
> individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
> earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.
>
>
> Darryl
>
>

[Scott[_7_]]

Mike Schumann wrote:

>
> Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
> license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
> straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
> this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.
>

>

>
>
What?! Have the FCC only issue one license and collect $115? They'd
fail without all that other income and would have to get a government
bailout. ;(

[2KA]

All,

I've successfully completed the license process. It was just about as
horrible as you might expect. The online form is like eight pages
(tabs) long -- I think it is the same one they use if you want to
start your own radio station. Here are some things you need to know,
which I found after lots of back and forth with the FCC:

1. The correct Radio and Service Code is indeed AF -- Aeronautucal
and fixed.
2. You must specify exactly one frequency, such as 123.3. Even
though 123.5 is also authorized for soaring communications, if you
want to transmit on it you will need a second license. Once license
will, however, cover a couple of handhelds.
3. When you specify the frequency, use the "lower" box, not the
"carrier" or any of the other entry fields.
4. The emission code is 6K00A3E. Really.
5. You have to specify the output power of your handheld. Mine is
5W.

Lynn Alley
"2KA"

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > 2KA > writes:
>All,
>
>I've successfully completed the license process. It was just about as
>horrible as you might expect. The online form is like eight pages
>(tabs) long -- I think it is the same one they use if you want to
>start your own radio station. Here are some things you need to know,
>which I found after lots of back and forth with the FCC:
>
>1. The correct Radio and Service Code is indeed AF -- Aeronautucal
>and fixed.
>2. You must specify exactly one frequency, such as 123.3. Even
>though 123.5 is also authorized for soaring communications, if you
>want to transmit on it you will need a second license. Once license
>will, however, cover a couple of handhelds.

From the online code of federal regulations:

87.323 Frequencies.
(a) 121.500 MHz: Emergency and distress only.
(b) The frequencies 121.950, 123.300 and 123.500 MHz are available for
assignment to aviation support stations used for pilot training,
coordination of lighter-than-air aircraft operations, or coordination
of soaring or free ballooning activities. Applicants for 121.950 MHz
must coordinate their proposal with the appropriate FAA Regional
Spectrum Management Office. The application must specify the FAA
Region notified and the date notified. Applicants for aviation support
land stations may request frequency(ies) based upon their eligibility
although the Commission reserves the right to specify the frequency of
assignment. Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300
and 123.500 MHz. However, aviation support mobile stations must
operate only on a noninterference basis to communications between
aircraft and aviation support land stations.

Notice that it says "Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300
and 123.500 MHz."

That would lead one to believe that both frequencies will be assigned to a single
license.


However, this appears to be the wrong class of service if you wish to operate
on the local CTAF to annaounce things like runway crossings or staging to local
traffic (including the powr traffic).


Alan

[2KA]

I actually tried to apply for both frequencies on a single license.
The FCC informed me that the same station could potentially operate on
the two different frequencies, but that I would have to submit two
license fees and two applications. And you're right about the CTAF
thing. If you want to transmit on that as well using a mobile
station, you have to submit yet another application in a different
service class.

L.

[Pete Brown]

Can someone tell me what public service is served by having the FCC
pursue such a stupid course of action? Why not recommend to our
congressmen that perhaps this part of the FCC should be be disbanded,
the regulation removed from the books, and that the money saved put
towards the deficit.

This bureaucracy is totally out of control.

2KA wrote:
> I actually tried to apply for both frequencies on a single license.
> The FCC informed me that the same station could potentially operate on
> the two different frequencies, but that I would have to submit two
> license fees and two applications. And you're right about the CTAF
> thing. If you want to transmit on that as well using a mobile
> station, you have to submit yet another application in a different
> service class.
>
> L.

[son_of_flubber]

Stumbled across this old thread from 2009...

Is the license discussed in this thread still required?

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:00:39 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Stumbled across this old thread from 2009...
>
> Is the license discussed in this thread still required?

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing&id=aircraft_stations

[son_of_flubber]

I found this 2013 record of the $9000 forfeiture order against TSA

https://www.fcc.gov/document/texas-soaring-association-inc-forfeiture-order

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:17:52 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I found this 2013 record of the $9000 forfeiture order against TSA
>
> https://www.fcc.gov/document/texas-soaring-association-inc-forfeiture-order

Yes. IIRC it was appealed and no collection was ever made. However, every annual meeting or board election, checking the base station license expiry date should be an agenda item. It is at my club.