Trig TT21 in Experimental Aircraft

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I am looking forward to selling the Trig TT21 transponder in the USA once
they receive approval from the FAA (or whomever they need approvals from).
However, I just talked to someone who told me that his avionics person said
he could install one in his experimental aircraft - now - even though the
unit is not approved for use in the USA. Can that be true? I don't think
it is, but I'm not certain. I would think it would be illegal to use it in
the USA until it receives US approvals.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

[Tim Mara[_2_]]

a transponder has to be approved before it can get involved in the US ATC
system....otherwise we'd be using home made toys to mingel with airliners
and fighter jets...the controllers wouldn't appreciate this....but lawyers
might
tim

"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I am looking forward to selling the Trig TT21 transponder in the USA once
> they receive approval from the FAA (or whomever they need approvals from).
> However, I just talked to someone who told me that his avionics person
> said he could install one in his experimental aircraft - now - even though
> the unit is not approved for use in the USA. Can that be true? I don't
> think it is, but I'm not certain. I would think it would be illegal to
> use it in the USA until it receives US approvals.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 2, 4:07*pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> a transponder has to be approved before it can get involved in the US ATC
> system....otherwise we'd be using home made toys to mingel with airliners
> and fighter jets...the controllers wouldn't appreciate this....but lawyers
> might
> tim
>
> "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I am looking forward to selling the Trig TT21 transponder in the USA once
> > they receive approval from the FAA (or whomever they need approvals from).
> > However, I just talked to someone who told me that his avionics person
> > said he could install one in his experimental aircraft - now - even though
> > the unit is not approved for use in the USA. *Can that be true? * I don't
> > think it is, but I'm not certain. *I would think it would be illegal to
> > use it in the USA until it receives US approvals.
>
> > Best Regards,
>
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

This may be a "meets requirements of TSO..." situation. And if so one
gate to this is finding an approved technician who will sign off on
the required tests. See FAR 93.413 (c) 1. As an owner of an
experimental glider you do not get to
sign off on those yourself. So personally I would start by explain the
situation and ask a local installer/avionics guy if he can/is willing
to do this.

Darryl
Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 2, 4:27*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jul 2, 4:07*pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > a transponder has to be approved before it can get involved in the US ATC
> > system....otherwise we'd be using home made toys to mingel with airliners
> > and fighter jets...the controllers wouldn't appreciate this....but lawyers
> > might
> > tim
>
> > "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > Hi,
>
> > > I am looking forward to selling the Trig TT21 transponder in the USA once
> > > they receive approval from the FAA (or whomever they need approvals from).
> > > However, I just talked to someone who told me that his avionics person
> > > said he could install one in his experimental aircraft - now - even though
> > > the unit is not approved for use in the USA. *Can that be true? * I don't
> > > think it is, but I'm not certain. *I would think it would be illegal to
> > > use it in the USA until it receives US approvals.
>
> > > Best Regards,
>
> > > Paul Remde
> > > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> This may be a "meets requirements of TSO..." situation. And if so one
> gate to this is *finding an approved technician who will sign off on
> the required tests. See FAR 93.413 (c) 1. As an owner of an
> experimental glider you do not get to
> sign off on those yourself. So personally I would start by explain the
> situation and ask a local installer/avionics guy if he can/is willing
> to do this.
>
> Darryl
> Darryl

BTW I forgot, the "meets requirements" part is in FAR 91.215

The main relevant TSO is C112 (Mode-S) which traces back to RTCA/
DO-181 standards. The European
ETSO 2C112b traces back to EUROCAE ED-73B stabndards. I might have the
latest subversions of the standards wrong.

There can be subtle differences between EUROCAE and RTCA compliance so
you can just assume they are exactly the same. The question again
still is would a technician doing the post-install tests be willing to
sign off on a transponder that "meets requirements of TSO C112" and
how would they determine that?

I am not defending this or suggesting trying to do it. Just clarifying
what I think the situation is. If somebody disagrees please mention
the relevant FARs.

I'd still love to get to play with a Trig TT21.

Darryl

[Janus2k]

Paul,
It is legal to install anything in an experiential. However with
transponders they must meet the TSO requirements if they are to be
turned on. Doesn’t matter what type of aircraft. TSO required for all
aircraft and all airspce.
Just wish the certification would get done on the Trig 21.
Mark Mahan
2K


§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder
equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental
requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-
C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or
the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).



>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 4:07*pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
>
> > > a transponder has to be approved before it can get involved in the US ATC
> > > system....otherwise we'd be using home made toys to mingel with airliners
> > > and fighter jets...the controllers wouldn't appreciate this....but lawyers
> > > might
> > > tim
>
> > > "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > I am looking forward to selling the Trig TT21 transponder in the USA once
> > > > they receive approval from the FAA (or whomever they need approvals from).
> > > > However, I just talked to someone who told me that his avionics person
> > > > said he could install one in his experimental aircraft - now - even though
> > > > the unit is not approved for use in the USA. *Can that be true? * I don't
> > > > think it is, but I'm not certain. *I would think it would be illegal to
> > > > use it in the USA until it receives US approvals.
>
> > > > Best Regards,
>
> > > > Paul Remde
> > > > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> > This may be a "meets requirements of TSO..." situation. And if so one
> > gate to this is *finding an approved technician who will sign off on
> > the required tests. See FAR 93.413 (c) 1. As an owner of an
> > experimental glider you do not get to
> > sign off on those yourself. So personally I would start by explain the
> > situation and ask a local installer/avionics guy if he can/is willing
> > to do this.
>
> > Darryl
> > Darryl
>
> BTW I forgot, the "meets requirements" part is in FAR 91.215
>
> The main relevant TSO is C112 (Mode-S) which traces back to RTCA/
> DO-181 standards. The European
> ETSO 2C112b traces back to EUROCAE ED-73B stabndards. I might have the
> latest subversions of the standards wrong.
>
> There can be subtle differences between EUROCAE and RTCA compliance so
> you can just assume they are exactly the same. The question again
> still is would a technician doing the post-install tests be willing to
> sign off on a transponder that "meets requirements of TSO C112" and
> how would they determine that?
>
> I am not defending this or suggesting trying to do it. Just clarifying
> what I think the situation is. If somebody disagrees please mention
> the relevant FARs.
>
> I'd still love to get to play with a Trig TT21.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jul 4, 2:10*pm, Janus2k > wrote:
> Paul,
> It is legal to install anything in an experiential. However with
> transponders they must meet the TSO requirements if they are to be
> turned on. Doesn’t matter what type of aircraft. TSO required for all
> aircraft and all airspce.
> Just wish the certification would get done on the Trig 21.
> Mark Mahan
> 2K
>
> § 91.215 * ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
> (a) * * All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
> conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder
> equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental
> requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-
> C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or
> the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).
>
>
>
> > > On Jul 2, 4:07*pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
>
> > > > a transponder has to be approved before it can get involved in the US ATC
> > > > system....otherwise we'd be using home made toys to mingel with airliners
> > > > and fighter jets...the controllers wouldn't appreciate this....but lawyers
> > > > might
> > > > tim
>
> > > > "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
>
> > > ...
>
> > > > > Hi,
>
> > > > > I am looking forward to selling the Trig TT21 transponder in the USA once
> > > > > they receive approval from the FAA (or whomever they need approvals from).
> > > > > However, I just talked to someone who told me that his avionics person
> > > > > said he could install one in his experimental aircraft - now - even though
> > > > > the unit is not approved for use in the USA. *Can that be true? * I don't
> > > > > think it is, but I'm not certain. *I would think it would be illegal to
> > > > > use it in the USA until it receives US approvals.
>
> > > > > Best Regards,
>
> > > > > Paul Remde
> > > > > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> > > This may be a "meets requirements of TSO..." situation. And if so one
> > > gate to this is *finding an approved technician who will sign off on
> > > the required tests. See FAR 93.413 (c) 1. As an owner of an
> > > experimental glider you do not get to
> > > sign off on those yourself. So personally I would start by explain the
> > > situation and ask a local installer/avionics guy if he can/is willing
> > > to do this.
>
> > > Darryl
> > > Darryl
>
> > BTW I forgot, the "meets requirements" part is in FAR 91.215
>
> > The main relevant TSO is C112 (Mode-S) which traces back to RTCA/
> > DO-181 standards. The European
> > ETSO 2C112b traces back to EUROCAE ED-73B stabndards. I might have the
> > latest subversions of the standards wrong.
>
> > There can be subtle differences between EUROCAE and RTCA compliance so
> > you can just assume they are exactly the same. The question again
> > still is would a technician doing the post-install tests be willing to
> > sign off on a transponder that "meets requirements of TSO C112" and
> > how would they determine that?
>
> > I am not defending this or suggesting trying to do it. Just clarifying
> > what I think the situation is. If somebody disagrees please mention
> > the relevant FARs.
>
> > I'd still love to get to play with a Trig TT21.
>
> > Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>

Did you read my post you quoted? The FAR you quoted (the same one I
had quoted) says you have to meet the TSO requirement. OK sofar, we
all can read and agree on that.

Now next step here folks. Hold on tight... Meeting the specs of a TSO
is different than being "TSO approved" aka having a manufacturer TSO
authorization. I kind of already tried to explain that in this thread.
If somebody sees a requirement for TSO approved/manufactured under a
TSO authorization please provide the FAR.


Darryl