SAFE Winch Launching

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

To all my friends in the United States of America.

You may have got the impression from some recent correspondence on this
site that winch launchings is about as risky as bungey jumping or joining
a Kamikaze squadron!

In fact we do many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of
winch launches in Europe with only the very occasional accident. Even the
ones we do have are largely avoidable.

Most of the serious winch launching accidents come into the following
categories:

1) Ground loop or cartwheel after catching a wingtip on the ground.
2) Flick spin due to over-rotating after lift off.
3) Stall/spin after a cable break or other launch failure.

These can be avoided respectively by:

a) Pulling the cable release knob if a wing drops.
b) Monitoring the airspeed and controlling the rate of rotation to not
more than 10 degrees/second.
c) Lowering the nose to the recovery attitude and regaining a safe
airspeed before attempting any further manoeuvres. Also learning the most
suitable options for landing safely from various heights.

Things happen much more quickly during a winch launch than they do during
an aerotow, so you do need to engage your brain before you start moving,
not halfway up the launch.

There is starting to be more interest in winch launching in the States,
due to rising fuel and maintenance costs for tug aircraft. However I have
found it somewhat disappointing that some of the leading US protagonists
seem to want to ignore any advice from European clubs and winch builders,
who have a wealth of experience in this method. It's the 'good ol' US
of A always knows best' syndrome. As a result you have already suffered a
fatality and two serious injuries this year from a fraction of the number
of launches that we would do in Europe in the same period.

You already have the most of the basics for winch launching in the US. You
have many vehicles fitted with large and powerful V8 engines and good
automatic gearboxes that can be cannibalised to make decent winches.
Please note that you must disable any kick down arrangement on the
automatic gearboxes. If you join a Yahoo group called 'Winch Design' you
will find a document written by the BGA winching advisor called 'Proven UK
specification' which gives you most of the information needed to build a
good winch. You don't need very fancy and expensive, but as yet unproven,
diesel-hydraulic or electric winches that the above protagonists seem to
think are essential.

Derek Copeland

[bildan]

On Jul 4, 5:15*pm, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> To all my friends in the United States of America.
>
> You may have got the impression from some recent correspondence on this
> site that winch launchings is about as risky as bungey jumping or joining
> a Kamikaze squadron!
>
> In fact we do many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of
> winch launches in Europe with only the very occasional accident. Even the
> ones we do have are largely avoidable.
>
> Most of the serious winch launching accidents come into the following
> categories:
>
> 1) Ground loop or cartwheel after catching a wingtip on the ground.
> 2) Flick spin due to over-rotating after lift off.
> 3) Stall/spin after a cable break or other launch failure.
>
> These can be avoided respectively by:
>
> a) Pulling the cable release knob if a wing drops.
> b) Monitoring the airspeed and controlling the rate of rotation to not
> more than 10 degrees/second.
> c) Lowering the nose to the recovery attitude and regaining a safe
> airspeed before attempting any further manoeuvres. Also learning the most
> suitable options for landing safely from various heights.
>
> Things happen much more quickly during a winch launch than they do during
> an aerotow, so you do need to engage your brain before you start moving,
> not halfway up the launch.
>
> There is starting to be more interest in winch launching in the States,
> due to rising fuel and maintenance costs for tug aircraft. However I have
> found it somewhat disappointing that some of the leading US protagonists
> seem to want to ignore any advice from European clubs and winch builders,
> who have a wealth of experience in this method. It's the 'good ol' US
> of A always knows best' syndrome. As a result you have already suffered a
> fatality and two serious injuries this year from a fraction of the number
> of launches that we would do in Europe in the same period.
>
> You already have the most of the basics for winch launching in the US. You
> have many vehicles fitted with large and powerful V8 engines and good
> automatic gearboxes that can be cannibalised to make decent winches.
> Please note that you must disable any kick down arrangement on the
> automatic gearboxes. If you join a Yahoo group called 'Winch Design' you
> will find a document written by the BGA winching advisor called 'Proven UK
> specification' which gives you most of the information needed to build a
> good winch. You don't need very fancy and expensive, but as yet unproven,
> diesel-hydraulic or electric winches that the above protagonists seem to
> think are essential.
>
> Derek Copeland

Written by someone who thinks British automobiles with Lucas electrics
are reliable transportation.

[Brian Goodspeed]

>Written by someone who thinks British automobiles with Lucas electrics
>are reliable transportation.
>

Written by someone who always claims to know everything about everything -
except that Lucas no longer exist. They were taken over and bankrupted by
a U.S. company!

[rlovinggood]

Not mentioned here is winch launching is fun! What a ride!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

PS: LUCAS: Prince of Darkness

Also, why do Brits drink warm beer? They have Lucas refrigerators...

[vic20owner]

On Jul 4, 7:15*pm, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> To all my friends in the United States of America.
>
> You may have got the impression from some recent correspondence on this
> site that winch launchings is about as risky as bungey jumping or joining
> a Kamikaze squadron!
>
> In fact we do many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of
> winch launches in Europe with only the very occasional accident. Even the
> ones we do have are largely avoidable.
>
> Most of the serious winch launching accidents come into the following
> categories:
>
> 1) Ground loop or cartwheel after catching a wingtip on the ground.
> 2) Flick spin due to over-rotating after lift off.
> 3) Stall/spin after a cable break or other launch failure.
>
> These can be avoided respectively by:
>
> a) Pulling the cable release knob if a wing drops.
> b) Monitoring the airspeed and controlling the rate of rotation to not
> more than 10 degrees/second.
> c) Lowering the nose to the recovery attitude and regaining a safe
> airspeed before attempting any further manoeuvres. Also learning the most
> suitable options for landing safely from various heights.
>
> Things happen much more quickly during a winch launch than they do during
> an aerotow, so you do need to engage your brain before you start moving,
> not halfway up the launch.
>
> There is starting to be more interest in winch launching in the States,
> due to rising fuel and maintenance costs for tug aircraft. However I have
> found it somewhat disappointing that some of the leading US protagonists
> seem to want to ignore any advice from European clubs and winch builders,
> who have a wealth of experience in this method. It's the 'good ol' US
> of A always knows best' syndrome. As a result you have already suffered a
> fatality and two serious injuries this year from a fraction of the number
> of launches that we would do in Europe in the same period.
>
> You already have the most of the basics for winch launching in the US. You
> have many vehicles fitted with large and powerful V8 engines and good
> automatic gearboxes that can be cannibalised to make decent winches.
> Please note that you must disable any kick down arrangement on the
> automatic gearboxes. If you join a Yahoo group called 'Winch Design' you
> will find a document written by the BGA winching advisor called 'Proven UK
> specification' which gives you most of the information needed to build a
> good winch. You don't need very fancy and expensive, but as yet unproven,
> diesel-hydraulic or electric winches that the above protagonists seem to
> think are essential.
>
> Derek Copeland

while I have never winch launched and only just recently soloed I have
been a member of that group for a while now simply because I knew I
would learn a thing or two about winch launching by just lurking and
paying attention.

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

At 01:38 05 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>
>Written by someone who thinks British automobiles with Lucas electrics
are reliable transportation.
>
Having in the past owned several rather unreliable Ford cars, which is an
American Corporation, I have for the last 15 years or so bought
British/French Peugeots and Citroens, most of which have been totally
reliable over big annual mileages. Fords seem to last for 60,000 miles and
then everything goes wrong with them!

A number of my friends have British Rover cars (probably with some Lucas
components), and they also seem to be much more reliable than Fords.
Unfortunately that company went into liquidation and was eventually bought
by the Chinese.

Derek Copeland

[Surfer!]

In message
>,
rlovinggood > writes
<snip>
>
>Also, why do Brits drink warm beer?

It's not warm, it's cellar temperature - about 55F - and it tastes best
at that temperature if it's kept properly. Other beers / lagers have to
be chilled to kill the 'taste'.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Surfer!]

In message >, Derek Copeland
> writes
<snip>
>
>Most of the serious winch launching accidents come into the following
>categories:
>
>1) Ground loop or cartwheel after catching a wingtip on the ground.
>2) Flick spin due to over-rotating after lift off.
>3) Stall/spin after a cable break or other launch failure.
>
>These can be avoided respectively by:
>
>a) Pulling the cable release knob if a wing drops.
>b) Monitoring the airspeed and controlling the rate of rotation to not
>more than 10 degrees/second.

And not starting to rotate unless the winch is managing to accelerate
the glider. When that happens, pull off, and aviate back to the ground.
The issues I know of in that situation are lowering the nose to far and
slamming into the ground, and pulling the airbrakes too early (before
the glider is at a normal approach speed) and again slamming into the
ground.

>c) Lowering the nose to the recovery attitude and regaining a safe
>airspeed before attempting any further manoeuvres. Also learning the most
>suitable options for landing safely from various heights.

<Snip>

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Dave Martin[_3_]]

Ray

Warm beer......

It is a fairly simple process we drink our beer warm so we can taste it.

The residue, is pumped from the urinal into large vats and frozen, it is
then resold as lager or American beer to people with no taste

Dave


At 02:06 05 July 2009, rlovinggood wrote:
>Not mentioned here is winch launching is fun! What a ride!
>
>Ray Lovinggood
>Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
>PS: LUCAS: Prince of Darkness
>
>Also, why do Brits drink warm beer? They have Lucas refrigerators...
>
>

[Bruce]

Dave Martin wrote:
> Ray
>
> Warm beer......
>
> It is a fairly simple process we drink our beer warm so we can taste it.
>
> The residue, is pumped from the urinal into large vats and frozen, it is
> then resold as lager or American beer to people with no taste
>
> Dave
>
>
> At 02:06 05 July 2009, rlovinggood wrote:
>> Not mentioned here is winch launching is fun! What a ride!
>>
>> Ray Lovinggood
>> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>>
>> PS: LUCAS: Prince of Darkness
>>
>> Also, why do Brits drink warm beer? They have Lucas refrigerators...
>>
>>
Now now children...

As an aside it is perhaps ironic that much of the world's beer
production comes from a South African company (SAB Miller)

Can't say whether it is better or worse than average, warm or cold since
I never got past the "this all tastes like cat pee" stage. ;-)

[Alistair Wright]

In all this discussion of winches, and the building thereof, no one has
mentioned auto towing. The 'reverse auto tow' is the most efficient launch
method I have ever encountered. We used it at the Essex Club at North Weald
while I instructed there.

You need a nice long runway, about 6000ft is ideal but shorter will do. The
ingredients are:

1) Two large automatic cars of about 100BHP - we used retired V6 Ford
Zephyrs - we will call them car1 and car2. A driver and observer (who
watches the glider) are required.

2) A large grooved pulley about six feet in diameter on a rotatable gimbal
and anchored firmly to the ground. The pulley is at the opposite end of the
runway to the launch point.

3) A piece of single strand piano wire the length of the runway.

4) Gliders with pilots.

The wire is passed over the pulley and attached to car 1 which is sitting at
the pulley and the other end to the glider via the usual rope, parachute,
and weak link. Car 2 is sitting at the launch point. Slack is taken up, and
at the all out signal car 1 sets off down the runway towards the glider
which most obligingly lifts off, and sets off up what is now effectively a
winch launch. Meanwhile car 2 sets off following the glider towards the
pulley avoiding car 1, of course, which is driving at about 35- 40 mph
towards the launch point. Glider releases, (we often got nearly 2000ft on a
good day), and car 1 carries on the launch point while car 2 arrives at the
pulley. The cable has launching tackle on both ends, so the next glider is
coupled on and car 2 is connected to the cable and does the next launch ...
need I go on? We used to get 20 launches an hour using this method. No time
is wasted retrieving cables. No need to buy an expensive winch, and the
cheap cable lasted a long time. Ford Zephyrs were also fairly cheap from the
scrap yard, and we had people in the club adept at fixing them. As quite of
lot of American clubs seem to have access to runways I cannot see why they
cannot try this method of launching. I recommend it.

Alistair Wright

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 5, 7:50*am, "Alistair Wright" > wrote:
> In all this discussion of winches, and the building thereof, no one has
> mentioned auto towing. The 'reverse auto tow' is the most efficient launch
> method I have ever encountered. We used it at the Essex Club at North Weald
> while I instructed there.
>
> You need a nice long runway, about 6000ft is ideal but shorter will do. The
> ingredients are:
>
> 1) Two large automatic cars of about 100BHP - we used retired V6 Ford
> Zephyrs - we will call them car1 and car2. A driver and observer (who
> watches the glider) are required.
>
> 2) A large grooved pulley about six feet in diameter on a rotatable gimbal
> and anchored firmly to the ground. The pulley is at the opposite end of the
> runway to the launch point.
>
> 3) A piece of single strand piano wire the length of the runway.
>
> 4) Gliders with pilots.
>
> The wire is passed over the pulley and attached to car 1 which is sitting at
> the pulley and the other end to the glider via the usual rope, parachute,
> and weak link. Car 2 is sitting at the launch point. Slack is taken up, and
> at the all out signal car 1 sets off down the runway towards the glider
> which most obligingly lifts off, and sets off up what is now effectively a
> winch launch. Meanwhile car 2 sets off following the glider towards the
> pulley avoiding car 1, of course, which is driving at about 35- 40 mph
> towards the launch point. Glider releases, (we often got nearly 2000ft on a
> good day), and car 1 carries on the launch point while car 2 arrives at the
> pulley. The cable has launching tackle on both ends, so the next glider is
> coupled on and car 2 is connected to the cable and does the next launch ....
> need I go on? *We used to get 20 launches an hour using this method. No time
> is wasted retrieving cables. No need to buy an expensive winch, and the
> cheap cable lasted a long time. Ford Zephyrs were also fairly cheap from the
> scrap yard, and we had people in the club adept at fixing them. *As quite of
> lot of American clubs seem to have access to runways I cannot see why they
> cannot try this method of launching. I recommend it.
>
> Alistair Wright

Having launched with EGC at North Weald a couple of occasions many
years ago, my experience was a bit different. We got maybe 800ft in
the K13, but I think the normal launch cars were broken down and a
manually shifted Vauxhall was in use. Each time it shifted, the
drogue chute was over the nose of the glider. I got 1200ft in the SHK
on the other day. IIRC, airspace was limited to 2200ft until about
five miles north. (Have to dig out an old chart that's archived
somewhere). On the days I was there, only one vehicle was in use and
on the first day, there was a wire snarl up on the pulley system (two
big wheels) that delayed things for well over an hour.

However, I do agree that the system may be very efficient. To that
end, the old Cotswold GC system was, IMVHO, more elegant and required
less people to operate
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reverse_pulley/default.htm

In addition to the long runway, CGC insisted on a lateral 2000ft clear
zone around the pulley. Piano wire is nasty stuff when it breaks
under tension. They also used rather more substantial tow vehicles
and you couldn't launch modern K-21's, DG-50X's and 1000's and single
seaters with Zephyr's. You can't discount the cost of powerful tow
vehicles. We did okay at Enstone GC with an XJ6 Jag on auto tow.
After many years, Cotswold GC reverted to winching.
http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk/ They formerly had a history page
about the reverse pulley, but I don't find anything on their web site
now. They do mention that learning to glide is cheaper than learning
to drive though;^)

We do have some long runways in the US, but few are lacking runway
lights or other obstacles that are too close to entertain reverse
pulley launching. On these same runways, it's quite feasible to winch
using the UHMWPE ropes.

Regards,

Frank Whiteley

[johngalloway[_2_]]

On 5 July, 02:38, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 4, 5:15*pm, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
>
>
> > To all my friends in the United States of America.
>
> > You may have got the impression from some recent correspondence on this
> > site that winch launchings is about as risky as bungey jumping or joining
> > a Kamikaze squadron!
>
> > In fact we do many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of
> > winch launches in Europe with only the very occasional accident. Even the
> > ones we do have are largely avoidable.
>
> > Most of the serious winch launching accidents come into the following
> > categories:
>
> > 1) Ground loop or cartwheel after catching a wingtip on the ground.
> > 2) Flick spin due to over-rotating after lift off.
> > 3) Stall/spin after a cable break or other launch failure.
>
> > These can be avoided respectively by:
>
> > a) Pulling the cable release knob if a wing drops.
> > b) Monitoring the airspeed and controlling the rate of rotation to not
> > more than 10 degrees/second.
> > c) Lowering the nose to the recovery attitude and regaining a safe
> > airspeed before attempting any further manoeuvres. Also learning the most
> > suitable options for landing safely from various heights.
>
> > Things happen much more quickly during a winch launch than they do during
> > an aerotow, so you do need to engage your brain before you start moving,
> > not halfway up the launch.
>
> > There is starting to be more interest in winch launching in the States,
> > due to rising fuel and maintenance costs for tug aircraft. However I have
> > found it somewhat disappointing that some of the leading US protagonists
> > seem to want to ignore any advice from European clubs and winch builders,
> > who have a wealth of experience in this method. It's the 'good ol' US
> > of A always knows best' syndrome. As a result you have already suffered a
> > fatality and two serious injuries this year from a fraction of the number
> > of launches that we would do in Europe in the same period.
>
> > You already have the most of the basics for winch launching in the US. You
> > have many vehicles fitted with large and powerful V8 engines and good
> > automatic gearboxes that can be cannibalised to make decent winches.
> > Please note that you must disable any kick down arrangement on the
> > automatic gearboxes. If you join a Yahoo group called 'Winch Design' you
> > will find a document written by the BGA winching advisor called 'Proven UK
> > specification' which gives you most of the information needed to build a
> > good winch. You don't need very fancy and expensive, but as yet unproven,
> > diesel-hydraulic or electric winches that the above protagonists seem to
> > think are essential.
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> Written by someone who thinks British automobiles with Lucas electrics
> are reliable transportation.


Seems to be a non sequitor considering that Derek was advocating US
not UK engines for winches.

[bildan]

On Jul 4, 8:00*pm, Brian Goodspeed
> wrote:
> >Written by someone who thinks British automobiles with Lucas electrics
> >are reliable transportation.
>
> Written by someone who always claims to know everything about everything -
> except that Lucas no longer exist. *They were taken over and bankrupted by
> a U.S. company!

Written by someone who actually knows how to use Google.

BTW, I think Lucas was bought by DARPA who was looking for the secret
of light bulbs that emit darkness.

See: www.hermit.cc/mania/tmc/articles/lucas.htm

[Del C[_2_]]

At 18:17 05 July 2009, johngalloway wrote:

>
>Seems to be a non sequitor considering that Derek was advocating US not
UK engines for winches.
>
Well I would, but most UK cars do not have huge gas guzzling V8 engines
that are big and powerful enough to power a winch, due to our
Government's excessiveand historical taxation of road vehicle fuels.
Possibly V12 Jaguar or Rolls Royce engines would do. if you can find them
cheaply enough second hand. If you want a new engine, then the GM Marine
engines, as used by Skylaunch, are as good and cheap as anything.

Derek Copeland

P.S. Lucas made their initial fortune by selling reversing lights for
Italian tanks in WW2. They worked perfectly!

[chipsoars]

On Jul 5, 5:30*pm, Del C > wrote:
> At 18:17 05 July 2009, johngalloway wrote:
>
>
>
> >Seems to be a non sequitor *considering that Derek was advocating US not
>
> UK engines for winches.
>
> Well I would, but most UK cars do not have huge gas guzzling V8 engines
> that are big and powerful enough to power a winch, due to our
> Government's excessiveand historical taxation of road vehicle fuels.
> Possibly V12 Jaguar or Rolls Royce engines would do. if you can find them
> cheaply enough second hand. If you want a new engine, then the GM Marine
> engines, as used by Skylaunch, are as good and cheap as anything.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
> P.S. Lucas made their initial fortune by selling reversing lights for
> Italian tanks in WW2. They worked perfectly!

My understanding is that Lucas, Prince of Darkness, was also
responsible for the invention of intermittent windshield wipers.

I couldn't resist.............

Chip F. - who loves a good winch launch.

[vaughn[_2_]]

"chipsoars" > wrote in message
...

My understanding is that Lucas, Prince of Darkness, was also
responsible for the invention of intermittent windshield wipers.

Well, sort of. They just weren't supposed to be intermittent at the
time.

History seems to assign the invention of true intermittent windshield
washers to Robert Kearns.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/02/25/005398.html
I seem to remember a movie...

Vaughn

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Just to put the record straight about pulley launching at North Weald
(UK):

There were at least three different generations of Ford trucks used
for launching at North Weald, with the Ford Zodiac cars as a brief
interlude. The Vauxhall that Frank mentions must have been on a day
during the old generations of second hand vehicles which were
certainly not the best. Somebody must have used their own private car
for launching – I do not recall the club ever had a Vauxhall between
1970 when I started and 1991 or thereabouts when we had to stop wire
launches at North weald.

For anyone to judge the capability of reverse pulley launching by a
sight of one off day in the 1970’s is not a fair comparison.

I joined the club in 1970, and they were using ex-US or Canadian
service Ford F100 trucks. A few years later, the second-hand supply of
these ran out, and old Mark IV Ford Zodiac’s were tried as an
affordable alternative with sufficient power.

In 1978 we undertook a major re-equipment. As well as two K13s and a
tug, we bought two brand new Ford F100 trucks. They had 5.8 L V8
engines and propane gas tanks. (We still have one of the engines. It
went on for a life after death, as a replacement engine in an ex-ATC
Eagle-type winch, which we still have as a backup winch at Ridgewell.)

In 1988, these were wearing out. We and Lasham ordered new Ford F250
trucks. We had two, but I can’t remember how many Lasham ordered at
that time. They had 7.5 L V8 engines, supercooling, LPG conversion,
and cost £10,251.25 each including delivery and VAT. This was the
net price after I was able to arrange a healthy discount through my
connections with Ford at that time, which included from time to time
arranging publicity photographs at North Weald with gliders in the
background when they wanted to launch a marketing campaign for a new
vehicle.

These were the last tow trucks we used for launching at North Weald.
(In the early 1990s, the council which had bought the aerodrome banned
wire launching at the request of powered aircraft operators at the
aerodrome. They had concerns about mixing wire and their aircraft at
the same time.)

The last version of the “pulley” that we used had two wheels on a
pivoting frame, with a short straight between them which formed an
anvil. A Guillotine arrangement ran through the horizontal pivot, so
we could meet the requirement to be able to chop the cable during a
launch if necessary. As far as I know, the Aston Down device did not
permit such a safety arrangement.

As a general comment on life, launching, and the universe, I would add
that there are two ways (at least) to contemplate a technique that you
have not used before.

1. Invent it from the beginning yourself and make the same mistakes as
everybody else did.
2. Learn from people who eventually got it right and do it similarly.

Yours in a spirit of friendship and cooperation.

Chris N.

[Del C[_2_]]

I am not quite sure why this thread has turned into a discussion about the
merits of tasty warm British beer against that cold p*ss water the Yanks
drink, an attack on the late lamented Lucas car component company, and the
merits or otherwise of reverse pulley autotowing.

In the same period as Chris describes below, we did straight autotowing at
Lasham using various models of US Ford F series pick up trucks. This was
mainly because the winches available at the time were so poor. Once Tost,
Supacat and Skylaunch started building decent quality winches, it was
realised that you could get get much higher and safer launches, so the
changeover was made in the mid 1980's. I believe that only two UK clubs
still autotow in any form.

Derek Copeland

At 12:04 06 July 2009, Chris Nicholas wrote:
>Just to put the record straight about pulley launching at North Weald
>(UK):
>
>There were at least three different generations of Ford trucks used
>for launching at North Weald, with the Ford Zodiac cars as a brief
>interlude. The Vauxhall that Frank mentions must have been on a day
>during the old generations of second hand vehicles which were
>certainly not the best. Somebody must have used their own private car
>for launching =96 I do not recall the club ever had a Vauxhall between
>1970 when I started and 1991 or thereabouts when we had to stop wire
>launches at North weald.
>
>For anyone to judge the capability of reverse pulley launching by a
>sight of one off day in the 1970=92s is not a fair comparison.
>
>I joined the club in 1970, and they were using ex-US or Canadian
>service Ford F100 trucks. A few years later, the second-hand supply of
>these ran out, and old Mark IV Ford Zodiac=92s were tried as an
>affordable alternative with sufficient power.
>
>In 1978 we undertook a major re-equipment. As well as two K13s and a
>tug, we bought two brand new Ford F100 trucks. They had 5.8 L V8
>engines and propane gas tanks. (We still have one of the engines. It
>went on for a life after death, as a replacement engine in an ex-ATC
>Eagle-type winch, which we still have as a backup winch at Ridgewell.)
>
>In 1988, these were wearing out. We and Lasham ordered new Ford F250
>trucks. We had two, but I can=92t remember how many Lasham ordered at
>that time. They had 7.5 L V8 engines, supercooling, LPG conversion,
>and cost =A310,251.25 each including delivery and VAT. This was the
>net price after I was able to arrange a healthy discount through my
>connections with Ford at that time, which included from time to time
>arranging publicity photographs at North Weald with gliders in the
>background when they wanted to launch a marketing campaign for a new
>vehicle.
>
>These were the last tow trucks we used for launching at North Weald.
>(In the early 1990s, the council which had bought the aerodrome banned
>wire launching at the request of powered aircraft operators at the
>aerodrome. They had concerns about mixing wire and their aircraft at
>the same time.)
>
>The last version of the =93pulley=94 that we used had two wheels on a
>pivoting frame, with a short straight between them which formed an
>anvil. A Guillotine arrangement ran through the horizontal pivot, so
>we could meet the requirement to be able to chop the cable during a
>launch if necessary. As far as I know, the Aston Down device did not
>permit such a safety arrangement.
>
>As a general comment on life, launching, and the universe, I would add
>that there are two ways (at least) to contemplate a technique that you
>have not used before.
>
>1. Invent it from the beginning yourself and make the same mistakes as
>everybody else did.
>2. Learn from people who eventually got it right and do it similarly.
>
>Yours in a spirit of friendship and cooperation.
>
>Chris N.
>

[Del C[_2_]]

Pros and Cons of winch launching:

PROS:

1) A new professionally built winch will probably cost less than a new
towing aircraft. If you build your own from scrap automobile/truck parts
it will cost considerably less.

2) A winch doesn't require a highly qualified and certificated driver,
Certificates of Airworthiness, 50 hour checks, etc, etc. Some routine
maintenance is required though.

3) Low carbon footprint. A winch launch consumes less than a fifth of the
fuel required for an aerotow

4) No aircraft noise complaints.

5) Given proper training and pilot awareness, it's pretty safe.

6) Winch launching is cheap; at our club less than a third of the cost of
a 2000ft aerotow, even with professional winch drivers. So ideal for
training and circuit bashing. A decent soaring pilot can usually get away
from the sort of heights achieved, in the right conditions.

7) You don't have to learn accurate formation flying behind a tug.

8) You are unlikely to kill the winch operator, as opposed to a tug pilot
who can be killed if you get too high or too out of position.

9) Above all IT'S FUN.

CONS:

1) Launch height is limited by by the length of the cable run and the
headwind component. On a still day you will at best get about 45% of the
cable run. Launching directly into a headwind will improve this.

2) You can't get towed to a source of lift, such as a cumulus cloud or a
ridge. You always end up right over the winch.

3) Pilots need to be fairly well trained and switched on to deal with
launch failures and cable breaks.

4) Winch Cables may conflict with power flying at a mixed operation site.

Derek Copeland

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

To Alan Larson.

I tried to reply to your questions directly, but your spam filter doesn't
seem to like my tiscali email address. So the answers are:

1) How high you get depends on the length of the run, the power of the
winch (ours are Skylaunches with plenty of power and good control) and the
headwind component. At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
of your wallet.

2) A wingtip touching the ground during an aerotow ground run is not
normally an issue for aerotowing, provided that it's on a smooth surface
or very short grass. Having said that I once did £5.5k's worth of damage
to my glider trying to aerotow out of a cowfield with rather clumpy grass,
when I caught a wingtip in a particularly lush clump before I could get the
wing up and groundlooped violently. With a winch launch, because you are
putting in a lot of energy very quickly, a cartwheel can develop very
quickly; hence the need to abort the launch if a wing drops.

You also have to fly the glider in such a way that you can always recover
from a launch failure, which basically involves a short initial safety
climb and controlling the rate of rotation. If you pull up like a Saturn
rocket taking off, you are in severe danger or either flick spinning on
the cable, or stalling heavily into the ground if the cable breaks or the
winch fails early on!

3) It's surprising how often you find a thermal straight off the top of a
winch launch. I suppose this is because the heat generated by the winch
engine triggers off a thermal. Otherwise you head off to the nearest
cumulus cloud, or look for birds or other gliders circling. It is
considered polite to move out of the way before the next glider is ready
to launch and not to circle low down in the base leg area, but that often
allows 5 minutes or so in which to climb, by which time you may be high
enough not to conflict.

4) When training new members we normally start them off with aerotows to
get them used to being in the air and to learn how to control the glider
before transferring to the winch. Having said that, many UK clubs do all
their training by winch.

5) For obvious reasons you have to have a system in place that prevents
aerotows and other aircraft from taking off at the same time as a winch
launch is taking place. We have an appointed 'launch point controller'
whose job it is to coordinate all movements by radio. We also place the
winch launch point about 500 yards in from the downwind boundary and on a
grass area away from the main runway, so most gliders, tugs and light
aircraft can land short of there without conflicting with the cables.
Unfortunately this costs us some potential launch launch height. If we use
the full length of the airfield (1900yards) we can get 2500ft winch
launches even in nil wind. We sometimes do this when things are quiet, but
then you have to stop launching whenever there is an aircraft or glider on
approach. Also the higher you take the cables, the more likely they are to
drift over something expensive after a cable break.

Regards,
Derek Copeland






At 13:30 09 July 2009, Del C wrote:
>Pros and Cons of winch launching:
>
>PROS:
>
>1) A new professionally built winch will probably cost less than a new
>towing aircraft. If you build your own from scrap automobile/truck parts
>it will cost considerably less.
>
>2) A winch doesn't require a highly qualified and certificated driver,
>Certificates of Airworthiness, 50 hour checks, etc, etc. Some routine
>maintenance is required though.
>
>3) Low carbon footprint. A winch launch consumes less than a fifth of
the
>fuel required for an aerotow
>
>4) No aircraft noise complaints.
>
>5) Given proper training and pilot awareness, it's pretty safe.
>
>6) Winch launching is cheap; at our club less than a third of the cost
of
>a 2000ft aerotow, even with professional winch drivers. So ideal for
>training and circuit bashing. A decent soaring pilot can usually get
away
>from the sort of heights achieved, in the right conditions.
>
>7) You don't have to learn accurate formation flying behind a tug.
>
>8) You are unlikely to kill the winch operator, as opposed to a tug
pilot
>who can be killed if you get too high or too out of position.
>
>9) Above all IT'S FUN.
>
>CONS:
>
>1) Launch height is limited by by the length of the cable run and the
>headwind component. On a still day you will at best get about 45% of the
>cable run. Launching directly into a headwind will improve this.
>
>2) You can't get towed to a source of lift, such as a cumulus cloud or
a
>ridge. You always end up right over the winch.
>
>3) Pilots need to be fairly well trained and switched on to deal with
>launch failures and cable breaks.
>
>4) Winch Cables may conflict with power flying at a mixed operation
site.
>
>Derek Copeland
>

[bildan]

On Jul 11, 2:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:

At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
> 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
> but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
> of your wallet.

This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. With
no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
winch with an automatic transmission.

Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
exactly the same components. They are not particularly well
controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
transmissions free to shift gears when they please. The old junk
Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.

BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
at all?

[T8]

On Jul 11, 9:36*am, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
>
> > 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
> > but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
> > of your wallet.
>
> This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
> 9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. *With
> no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
> winch with an automatic transmission.
>
> Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
> exactly the same components. *They are not particularly well
> controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
> transmissions free to shift gears when they please. *The old junk
> Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
> world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
> BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
> at all?

That you, Lennie?

-T8

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Unlike Bill Daniels, I tell it as it is without exaggerations and unproven
assumptions. The figures I gave are for a K13, which winch launches less
well than a K21 because the belly hook is too far forward. K21's get
about 200 feet higher, especially when flown solo.Also Bill Daniel's
winch is using synthetic Dyneema cable which adds about 150 feet to the
launch compared with the 4.5mm stranded steel cable we use.

Dynema cable is superb stuff, but unfortunately 5 times more expensive
than steel. As cable replacement is one of the major costs in winch
launching, this makes it less economic.

The Skylaunch winch gives well controlled, correctly speeded launches for
every type of glider from slow old vintage single seaters up to big heavy
two-seat DG1000 turbos. It is also very easy to drive (I am a winch
driver). The gear change all occur during the ground run and are totally
smooth and imperceptible from the glider end.

If you build a winch with an automatic gearbox, you have to disable the
kick down function and tweak the box so that it changes up at fairly low
revs. I agree with Bill that you can't just stick an unmodified automatic
gearbox into a winch without encountering the sort of problems that seem to
beset Gerhlein winches. It is also important to get the overall gearing
correct.

For a good quality Skylaunch launch of a K21 to 2300ft into about a 5 knot
headwind see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ArI5_1PE_Y

BTW. My reply was genuine in response to an email from a gent called Alan
Larson. I tried twice to reply by email, but got delivery failure
notifications with the text:
The following message to <email address> was undeliverable.
The reason for the problem:
5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 All tiscali sends is spam'

OK Tiscali is not the best ISP in the world for keeping out spam, but even
so.....? I have removed Alan's actual email address to prevent him getting
any spam.

Derek Copeland



At 13:36 11 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 11, 2:00=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:
>
>At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
>> 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are
>2000ft
>,
>> but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the
>depth
>> of your wallet.
>
>This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
>9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. With
>no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
>winch with an automatic transmission.
>
>Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
>exactly the same components. They are not particularly well
>controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
>transmissions free to shift gears when they please. The old junk
>Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
>world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
>BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
>at all?
>

[Berry[_2_]]

In article
>,
bildan > wrote:

> On Jul 11, 2:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
> > 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
> > but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
> > of your wallet.
>
> This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
> 9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. With
> no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
> winch with an automatic transmission.
>
> Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
> exactly the same components. They are not particularly well
> controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
> transmissions free to shift gears when they please. The old junk
> Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
> world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
> BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
> at all?

My club used to have a very good winch. It was a one-off called the
"Eagle Winch" and was designed and built by one of our members. He got
his initial glider training in Germany and had knowledge of quality
winches. That winch is now with the Philadelphia Glider Council, I
believe. We were forced to let go of it because we moved to a municipal
airport that was incompatible with winch operations (crossing runways).

The Eagle winch has an automatic transmission. However, in our operation
it was locked into 2nd gear for normal conditions. In strong wind, we
used 1st gear. No gear changes necessary. It was very easy to operate
and became even more so after the steel cable was swapped our for plasma
rope by the second owners at the Memphis club. At our original field,
with 4000 feet of cable out, we could easily launch our single seaters
to 2000 feet if we had any headwind.

[johngalloway[_2_]]

On 11 July, 14:36, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
>
> > 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
> > but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
> > of your wallet.
>
> This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
> 9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. *With
> no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
> winch with an automatic transmission.
>
> Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
> exactly the same components. *They are not particularly well
> controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
> transmissions free to shift gears when they please. *The old junk
> Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
> world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
> BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
> at all?

This account of the performance of the Skylaunch winch is, as Bill has
repeatedly been told previously elsewhere by pilots who actually
operate or launch on Skylaunch winches, utterly false and his
obsessive denigration of it is disgraceful. Our club had a Skylaunch
winch for evaluation for six days a couple of weeks ago. The
smoothness of launch is faultless and a vast improvement over Supacat
and Tost winches

The fact that the automatic transmission can shift gears "when they
please" is a complete non issue. The gear changes up at the start of
the launch occur within the first 2-3 seconds (timed by me) and before
the glider has rotated into the climb. The gear changes are
completely imperceptible in the glider. None of numerous pilots on
the ground near the winch during launches note the upwards gear
changes without being prompted to listen out for them - an even then
there was soe debate about whether they could be detected.
Occasionally the autobox changes down to second during the mid launch
when under load but at no time was any of the many pilots launched
aware of any gear change.

The operational mechanisms of the Skylaunch are not designed to
"control" the launch so it is not surprising that it does not do so.
What it does have is an interconnected maximum throttle position guide
that takes into account the type of the glider and the headwind
component. This means that each glider is effectively provided with a
winch with an appropriately powered engine for itself and the wind
conditions in the mid launch. The winch driver still has to control
the start and end of the launch - by advancing the throttle control at
an appropriate rate at the start (about 3 seconds IMHO) and backing
off the power at the top. The predictable response of the good old GM
V8 to load means that the plot can pull into a steep climb without
fear of overspeeding.

The new US winches may turn out to be brilliant but Bill's emotional
bias invalidates him as an objective reporter in my opinion.

John Galloway

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 11, 9:15*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> Unlike Bill Daniels, I tell it as it is without exaggerations and unproven
> assumptions. The figures I gave are for a K13, which winch launches less
> well than a K21 because the belly hook is too far forward. K21's get
> about 200 feet higher, especially when flown solo.Also Bill Daniel's
> winch is using synthetic Dyneema cable which adds about 150 feet to the
> launch compared with the 4.5mm stranded steel cable we use.
>
> Dynema cable is superb stuff, but unfortunately 5 times more expensive
> than steel. As cable replacement is one of the major costs in winch
> launching, this makes it less economic.
>
> The Skylaunch winch gives well controlled, correctly speeded launches for
> every type of glider from slow old vintage single seaters up to big heavy
> two-seat DG1000 turbos. It is also very easy to drive (I am a winch
> driver). The gear change all occur during the ground run and are totally
> smooth and imperceptible from the glider end.
>
> If you build a winch with an automatic gearbox, you have to disable the
> kick down function and tweak the box so that it changes up at fairly low
> revs. I agree with Bill that you can't just stick an unmodified automatic
> gearbox into a winch without encountering the sort of problems that seem to
> beset Gerhlein winches. It is also important to get the overall gearing
> correct.
>
> For a good quality Skylaunch launch of a K21 to 2300ft into about a 5 knot
> headwind see:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ArI5_1PE_Y
>
> BTW. My reply was genuine in response to an email from a gent called Alan
> Larson. I tried twice to reply by email, but got delivery failure
> notifications with the text:
> The following message to <email address> was undeliverable.
> The reason for the problem:
> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 All tiscali sends is spam'
>
> OK Tiscali is not the best ISP in the world for keeping out spam, but even
> so.....? I have removed Alan's actual email address to prevent him getting
> any spam.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
> At 13:36 11 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
> >On Jul 11, 2:00=A0am, Derek Copeland *wrote:
>
> >At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
> >> 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are
> >2000ft
> >,
> >> but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the
> >depth
> >> of your wallet.
>
> >This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
> >9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. *With
> >no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
> >winch with an automatic transmission.
>
> >Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
> >exactly the same components. *They are not particularly well
> >controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
> >transmissions free to shift gears when they please. *The old junk
> >Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
> >world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
> >BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
> >at all?

The Hydrowinch is currently fitted with Spectra 12-strand, not Dyneema
nor Plasma-12.

Having now driven some number of launches and having trained another
to drive the Hydrowinch, I'd say it has some very nice features.
There are a some others that I've suggested to the developers.
There've been a couple of set backs, one of which led to a three month
delay. These folks have day jobs also and since some of the team
comes from overseas, it does slow things a bit. I'd like to put it on
line today, but that's not my decision to take. They aren't so
compromising, but it's close.

Frank Whiteley

[Jon Marshall]

Our club uses a mid seventies Tost winch with a Skylaunch throttle system
and a second hand 454 cid chevvy big block and standard truck autobox,
running 4.5mm stranded wire.

The engine was imported second hand from USA three years ago It seems to
be a mid seventies perhaps early eighties truck motor with associated
gearbox, sourced from a scrapyard and fitted with a few mods but NO
alterations save to disable kickdown and to run with lpg we did not look
inside the engine and it used less than 5 litres of oil in 3000 launches.

It is very smooth partly due to all the rollers and associated bearings
being renewed. As John noted the gearchanges on this standard autobox are
imperceptible and completed by approx 10' AGL . Driving is much the same
as before but less variable owing to the throttle guide system.

The old engine was a 425 cid oldsmobile engine with stock autobox which
was finally retired spewing oil and rattling but still launching. The
biggest differences arose with the new rollers and LPG both make these big
winches much smoother.

Simple cheap and very effective

Jon

Dorset Gliding Club, UK

[Del C[_2_]]

At 19:34 11 July 2009, johngalloway wrote:
>
>This account of the performance of the Skylaunch winch is, as Bill has
>repeatedly been told previously elsewhere by pilots who actually
>operate or launch on Skylaunch winches, utterly false and his
>obsessive denigration of it is disgraceful. Our club had a Skylaunch
>winch for evaluation for six days a couple of weeks ago. The
>smoothness of launch is faultless and a vast improvement over Supacat
>and Tost winches
>
>The fact that the automatic transmission can shift gears "when they
>please" is a complete non issue. The gear changes up at the start of
>the launch occur within the first 2-3 seconds (timed by me) and before
>the glider has rotated into the climb. The gear changes are
>completely imperceptible in the glider. None of numerous pilots on
>the ground near the winch during launches note the upwards gear
>changes without being prompted to listen out for them - an even then
>there was some debate about whether they could be detected.
>Occasionally the autobox changes down to second during the mid launch
>when under load but at no time was any of the many pilots launched
>aware of any gear change.
>
>The operational mechanisms of the Skylaunch are not designed to
>"control" the launch so it is not surprising that it does not do so.
>What it does have is an interconnected maximum throttle position guide
>that takes into account the type of the glider and the headwind
>component. This means that each glider is effectively provided with a
>winch with an appropriately powered engine for itself and the wind
>conditions in the mid launch. The winch driver still has to control
>the start and end of the launch - by advancing the throttle control at
>an appropriate rate at the start (about 3 seconds IMHO) and backing
>off the power at the top. The predictable response of the good old GM
>V8 to load means that the plot can pull into a steep climb without
>fear of overspeeding.
>
>The new US winches may turn out to be brilliant but Bill's emotional
>bias invalidates him as an objective reporter in my opinion.
>
>John Galloway
>
Totally agree with all of that. I believe the Hydrostart winch on which
the Hydrowinch is based costs an astonishing 500,000 Euros, so it ought to
be damn good! Makes a Skylaunch 2 at 90,000 Euros sound very good value,
and it is a tried and tested design. And remember that they do a cut down
and simplified version called the Skylaunch 3 for a lot less than that,
if you can do without air conditioned cabs etc.

Until recently we had a demo Skylaunch with a GM 502 High Torque engine.
On that you could open the throttle up to the preset as fast as the gas
strut would allow you to. However we have just bought two new winches with
the High Power engine and I initially got some complaints about banging the
tails of K13s down a bit hard at the start of the ground run, so I have
slowed down opening the throttle to about 3 seconds, as you suggest. You
also have to start backing off the throttle for the last third of the
launch to avoid overspeeding the glider. As long as you know that you have
to do this it is not difficult.

What the Skylaunch does brilliantly in my opinion, is to give a very
consistent ground run and rotation, whatever type of glider you are
flying. With our old Tost winches you could get anything from a
dangerously fast snatch into the air to a slow and ponderous ground run
with a risk of a wing drop. If a launch starts right it tends to stay
right, so we get consistently higher launches from them, if only for that
reason.

Derek Copeland

[bildan]

On Jul 11, 11:45*am, Berry > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *bildan > wrote:
> > On Jul 11, 2:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> > At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
> > > 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
> > > but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
> > > of your wallet.
>
> > This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
> > 9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. *With
> > no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
> > winch with an automatic transmission.
>
> > Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
> > exactly the same components. *They are not particularly well
> > controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
> > transmissions free to shift gears when they please. *The old junk
> > Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
> > world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
> > BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
> > at all?
>
> My club used to have a very good winch. It was a one-off called the
> "Eagle Winch" and was designed and built by one of our members. He got
> his initial glider training in Germany and had knowledge of quality
> winches. That winch is now with the Philadelphia Glider Council, I
> believe. We were forced to let go of it because we moved to a municipal
> airport that was incompatible with winch operations (crossing runways).
>
> The Eagle winch has an automatic transmission. However, in our operation
> it was locked into 2nd gear for normal conditions. In strong wind, we
> used 1st gear. No gear changes necessary. It was very easy to operate
> and became even more so after the steel cable was swapped our for plasma
> rope by the second owners at the Memphis club. At our original field,
> with 4000 feet of cable out, we could easily launch our single seaters
> to 2000 feet if we had any headwind.

Germany is a good place to learn about winches. Plasma rope is like
night and day compared to steel. Steel cable is evil stuff. If you
have a winch actually designed for Plasma - unlike the Skylaunch and
Gerhlein - it will outlast steel by as much as 5x making it actually
cheaper in the long run.

Did you actually lock your transmission in 2nd or just place the gear
selector in 2nd? It's an important question since a standard tranny
will still make the 1-2 upshift causing a power oscillation. We see
a lot of tension traces showing tension oscillations from these
winches.

Anyone considering an automatic transmission for a gilder winch really
needs to understand how they work. Automatics are highly developed
for road vehicles whose requirements are diametrically opposed to
those of a glider winch. If a road vehicle encounters an increasing
load, such as a hill, it is designed to help the driver maintain speed
by increasing torque to the wheels to meet the higher load, doing what
it can to reduce the loss of speed. Cresting the hill and starting
down, it reduces torque and tends toward coasting. Both actions
increase vehicle performance and minimize fuel consumption.

If a glider encounters a thermal during a launch, the rope tension
will increase which the automatic transmission will see as a "hill"
causing it to increase torque to the drum. This increases rope
tension still more as it tries to pull the glider down through the
thermal. If the glider hits sink, the automatic transmission will
slack off the torque just when the glider needs more power. A good
winch operator can overcome these to a degree with constant throttle
adjustments - if he can tell what is going on in the glider but it's
hard, skilled work. It's definitely not "set and forget".

A tension controlled winch will do the opposite - decreasing power in
thermals letting lift do the work and increasing it in sink leaving
the pilot to control speed with pitch. The pilot sees a very smooth
launch regardless of wind or thermals. The winch operator doesn't
need to do anything at all.

It's wonderful to never need speed signals again.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:07:50 -0700 (PDT), bildan >
wrote:

>A tension controlled winch will do the opposite - decreasing power in
>thermals letting lift do the work and increasing it in sink leaving
>the pilot to control speed with pitch. The pilot sees a very smooth
>launch regardless of wind or thermals. The winch operator doesn't
>need to do anything at all.
>
>It's wonderful to never need speed signals again.


.... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
system.

[Dave Martin[_3_]]

Bills explanation a couple of posts ago is an excellent and simple
description of how it constant tension works and why it would be
beneficial.

Why don't we in Europe adopt this technology -- quite simply cost.
Without private finance of money/time/labour/parts few clubs if any can
afford to scrap their current winches and buy the new technology.

Dave

At 00:29 12 July 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:07:50 -0700 (PDT), bildan
>wrote:
>
>>A tension controlled winch will do the opposite - decreasing power in
>>thermals letting lift do the work and increasing it in sink leaving
>>the pilot to control speed with pitch. The pilot sees a very smooth
>>launch regardless of wind or thermals. The winch operator doesn't
>>need to do anything at all.
>>
>>It's wonderful to never need speed signals again.
>
>
>.... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
>experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
>system.
>
>
>
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On 12 Jul 2009 10:15:03 GMT, Dave Martin >
wrote:

>Bills explanation a couple of posts ago is an excellent and simple
>description of how it constant tension works and why it would be
>beneficial.
>
>Why don't we in Europe adopt this technology -- quite simply cost.
>Without private finance of money/time/labour/parts few clubs if any can
>afford to scrap their current winches and buy the new technology.

If constant tension was really necessary for a good winch launch, many
clubs would already have one.
But the standard system (Tost, Skylaunch, whatever) is good enough for
the majority aof the clubs here.

It's definitely nicve to have - but Bill would probably have an easier
job if he advertized a more simple and much cheaper winch design to
the US clubs... ;)

[Marian Aldenhövel[_2_]]

Hi,

>> A tension controlled winch will do the opposite

> ... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
> experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
> system.

Some do.

When I was trained as a winch driver I was taught to judge cable tension
and use that as the input parameter to the control loop. The only way of
doing that without special sensors is to look at the cable sag. Works
during the main portion of the launch, but is not very accurate of course.

I think if the winch, or winch driver, has the means to control tension
and the pilot controls airspeed winch launches become more efficient and
even safer. Reports suggest that, I have no experience of my own.

Also you would propably get much more consistent launch performance
across different conditions and much more important, different drivers.
Today we get launches like being shot from a carrier deck and the
lumbering wingrunner-testing type all in the same day depending on who
is manning the winch. The first launches of the day, or after a driver
swap, or when conditions change would no longer need to be different
than those by a well-adapted driver.

I am all for it.

Ciao, MM

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 00:07 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>If a glider encounters a thermal during a launch, the rope tension
>will increase which the automatic transmission will see as a "hill"
>causing it to increase torque to the drum. This increases rope
>tension still more as it tries to pull the glider down through the
>thermal. If the glider hits sink, the automatic transmission will
>slack off the torque just when the glider needs more power. A good
>winch operator can overcome these to a degree with constant throttle
>adjustments - if he can tell what is going on in the glider but it's
>hard, skilled work. It's definitely not "set and forget".
>
>A tension controlled winch will do the opposite - decreasing power in
>thermals letting lift do the work and increasing it in sink leaving
>the pilot to control speed with pitch. The pilot sees a very smooth
>launch regardless of wind or thermals. The winch operator doesn't
>need to do anything at all.
>
>It's wonderful to never need speed signals again.


I think the difference in design concept between Europe/ USA is that over
the years we have leaned to design things which work for a minimal cost.
We have tried to avoid the expensive solution designed to kill you. I can
think of nothing more dangerous in a winch design than a tension sensitive
drive.

It may be wonderful to not need signals again, which if you are dead of
course you don't need, we prefer the safe option over here even if it
means a little more work.

[bildan]

On Jul 11, 1:34*pm, johngalloway > wrote:
> On 11 July, 14:36, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 2:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> > At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
>
> > > 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
> > > but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
> > > of your wallet.
>
> > This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
> > 9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. *With
> > no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
> > winch with an automatic transmission.
>
> > Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
> > exactly the same components. *They are not particularly well
> > controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
> > transmissions free to shift gears when they please. *The old junk
> > Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
> > world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
> > BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
> > at all?
>
> This account of the performance of the Skylaunch winch is, as Bill has
> repeatedly been told previously elsewhere by pilots who actually
> operate or launch on Skylaunch winches, utterly false and his
> obsessive denigration of it is disgraceful. *Our club had a Skylaunch
> winch for evaluation for six days a couple of weeks ago. *The
> smoothness of launch is faultless and a vast improvement over Supacat
> and Tost winches
>
> The fact that the automatic transmission can shift gears "when they
> please" is a complete non issue. *The gear changes up at the start of
> the launch occur within the first 2-3 seconds (timed by me) and before
> the glider has rotated into the climb. *The gear changes are
> completely imperceptible in the glider. *None of numerous pilots on
> the ground near the winch during launches note the upwards gear
> changes without being prompted to listen out for them - an even then
> there was soe debate about whether they could be detected.
> Occasionally the autobox changes down to second during the mid launch
> when under load but at no time was any of the many pilots launched
> aware of any gear change.
>
> The operational mechanisms of the Skylaunch are not designed to
> "control" the launch so it is not surprising that it does not do so.
> What it does have is an interconnected maximum throttle position guide
> that takes into account the type of the glider and the headwind
> component. *This means that each glider is effectively provided with a
> winch with an appropriately powered engine for itself and the wind
> conditions in the mid launch. *The winch driver still has to control
> the start and end of the launch - by advancing the throttle control at
> an appropriate rate at the start (about 3 seconds IMHO) and backing
> off the power at the top. *The predictable response of the good old GM
> V8 to load means that the plot can pull into a steep climb without
> fear of overspeeding.
>
> The new US winches may turn out to be brilliant but Bill's emotional
> bias invalidates him as an objective reporter in my opinion.
>
> John Galloway

For the record, I have no financial or managerial connection with
either US winch manufacturer but I strongly support and encourage
both. Both chose the best solutions based on very careful
investigation of winch launch dynamics. Neither chose to spend money
on excessively complicated solutions without extremely good cause.

Do I have an emotional bias against crappy engineering? Damn right I
do - especially when it's being sold as the 'perfect' solution.

The use of an automobile engines and automatic transmissions has only
one advantage - they're cheap and they 'work' after a fashion but it's
far from an ideal solution. There is quite a bit of field data to
support this. Once the underlying dynamics is fully investigated, it
become clear that this is not the way to go. Automatic transmissions
are a particularly evil choice.

To repeat yet again, automatic transmissions are highly developed and
uniquely adjusted for each vehicle in which they are installed. To
transplant them into a glider winch with diametrically opposite
requirements brings out the worst in the device. They are designed
for a wildly different purpose.

People can get used to anything and will learn to compensate for the
shortcomings of a winch based on automobile parts. They may not even
realize they are compensating unless there is a point of comparison.
You may not notice the transmission shifting or tension/speed errors
until you launch from a winch that does not shift and automatically
adjusts for air motion - then it's a revelation.

I strongly suggest doubters read George Moore's article in July
Soaring and the following article in the September issue. Thanks to
George, we now know EXACTLY how winch physics work. It's no surprise
that such knowledge leads to new and better winch designs.

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 8:45*am, Don Johnstone > wrote:
> At 00:07 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
>
>
> >If a glider encounters a thermal during a launch, the rope tension
> >will increase which the automatic transmission will see as a "hill"
> >causing it to increase torque to the drum. *This increases rope
> >tension still more as it tries to pull the glider down through the
> >thermal. *If the glider hits sink, the automatic transmission will
> >slack off the torque just when the glider needs more power. *A good
> >winch operator can overcome these to a degree with constant throttle
> >adjustments - if he can tell what is going on in the glider but it's
> >hard, skilled work. *It's definitely not "set and forget".
>
> >A tension controlled winch will do the opposite - decreasing power in
> >thermals letting lift do the work and increasing it in sink leaving
> >the pilot to control speed with pitch. *The pilot sees a very smooth
> >launch regardless of wind or thermals. *The winch operator doesn't
> >need to do anything at all.
>
> >It's wonderful to never need speed signals again.
>
> I think the difference in design concept between Europe/ USA is that over
> the years we have leaned to design things which work for a minimal cost.
> We have tried to avoid the expensive solution designed to kill you. I can
> think of nothing more dangerous in a winch design than a tension sensitive
> drive.
>
> It may be wonderful to not need signals again, which if you are dead of
> course you don't need, we prefer the safe option over here even if it
> means a little more work.

Check your geography. Tension controlled winches were developed in
Europe. Check your engineering facts. Tension controlled winches are
FAR safer than any other alternative.

How can a winch be safe when the operator must control glider airspeed
with throttle WHEN HE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT? Actually, Skylaunch
indirectly acknowledges this by offering airspeed telemetry as an
option.

The only reason for this loud controversy is a single English winch
manufacturer in who uses cheap American auto parts and sells the
product - essentially a 2-drum Gerhlein - for $145,000 USD at last
check. It's a great business model as long as there are suckers.
People tend to get upset when you point out the Emperor has no
clothes.

Yes I know it's a MARINE GM V8 but that's the same engine core as used
in a pick-up trucks with a few different accessories. Last check,
they wholesale for about $2,500. The stock GM TH400 sells for about
$1200 USD.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 10:28:03 -0700 (PDT), bildan >
wrote:


>How can a winch be safe when the operator must control glider airspeed
>with throttle WHEN HE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT?

It is safe. Period. Even if you don't believe that.


All the best
Andreas

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:45:08 +0200, Marian Aldenhövel
> wrote:


>> ... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
>> experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
>> system.
>
>Some do.

Indceed some do - but very, very few.
If there really was an urgent need we'd have more than a couple of
such winches in Europe by now, don't you agree?

>When I was trained as a winch driver I was taught to judge cable tension
>and use that as the input parameter to the control loop. The only way of
>doing that without special sensors is to look at the cable sag. Works
>during the main portion of the launch, but is not very accurate of course.

But sufficiently accurate, isn't it?
Contrary to the believe of some people here it doesn't matter if the
speed during the winch launch is 5 kts faster or slower (although the
perfect speed certainly increases launch height).

>I think if the winch, or winch driver, has the means to control tension
>and the pilot controls airspeed winch launches become more efficient and
>even safer. Reports suggest that, I have no experience of my own.

Efficiency? Definitely.
Safety? I doubt it.
I havent't been able to find even one accident report that was caused
by inappropriate power setting by the winch driver, yet there are
comparably many accidents caused by rope breaks or complete power
losses of the winch - things that cannot be prevented by tension
controlled speed.


>Also you would propably get much more consistent launch performance
>across different conditions and much more important, different drivers.

Indeed. Nice to have. :)

>Today we get launches like being shot from a carrier deck and the
>lumbering wingrunner-testing type all in the same day depending on who
>is manning the winch. The first launches of the day, or after a driver
>swap, or when conditions change would no longer need to be different
>than those by a well-adapted driver.

Typical problem of winch driver training. Once we started to re-train
our winch drivers who had problem scontroling the speed, we got rid of
this problem.


Viele Grüße
Andreas

[David Chapman]

I would love to fly a tension controlled winch > we were launhing today in
to strong head winds increasing rapidly part way up the launch. I can
imagine it is better, but I am not an expert.

Winch safety is mostly in the hands of the pilot, the winch is not
relevant to a good launch, but the trained pilot must be able to react to
any scenario.

But other nonsense posted here . please help me, ...

A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically adjust
the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?

David.


At 18:45 12 July 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:45:08 +0200, Marian Aldenhövel
> wrote:
>
>
>>> ... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
>>> experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
>>> system.
>>
>>Some do.
>
>Indceed some do - but very, very few.
>If there really was an urgent need we'd have more than a couple of
>such winches in Europe by now, don't you agree?
>
>>When I was trained as a winch driver I was taught to judge cable tension

>>and use that as the input parameter to the control loop. The only way of

>>doing that without special sensors is to look at the cable sag. Works
>>during the main portion of the launch, but is not very accurate of
>course.
>
>But sufficiently accurate, isn't it?
>Contrary to the believe of some people here it doesn't matter if the
>speed during the winch launch is 5 kts faster or slower (although the
>perfect speed certainly increases launch height).
>
>>I think if the winch, or winch driver, has the means to control tension

>>and the pilot controls airspeed winch launches become more efficient and

>>even safer. Reports suggest that, I have no experience of my own.
>
>Efficiency? Definitely.
>Safety? I doubt it.
>I havent't been able to find even one accident report that was caused
>by inappropriate power setting by the winch driver, yet there are
>comparably many accidents caused by rope breaks or complete power
>losses of the winch - things that cannot be prevented by tension
>controlled speed.
>
>
>>Also you would propably get much more consistent launch performance
>>across different conditions and much more important, different drivers.

>
>Indeed. Nice to have. :)
>
>>Today we get launches like being shot from a carrier deck and the
>>lumbering wingrunner-testing type all in the same day depending on who
>>is manning the winch. The first launches of the day, or after a driver
>>swap, or when conditions change would no longer need to be different
>>than those by a well-adapted driver.
>
>Typical problem of winch driver training. Once we started to re-train
>our winch drivers who had problem scontroling the speed, we got rid of
>this problem.
>
>
>Viele Grüße
>Andreas
>

[David Chapman]

I mis typed, ..
the winch is relevant to a good launch, but the pilot is responsible for
the safety,


At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>I would love to fly a tension controlled winch > we were launhing today
in
>to strong head winds increasing rapidly part way up the launch. I can
>imagine it is better, but I am not an expert.
>
>Winch safety is mostly in the hands of the pilot, the winch is not
>relevant to a good launch, but the trained pilot must be able to react
to
>any scenario.
>
>But other nonsense posted here . please help me, ...
>
>A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically adjust
>the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
>road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>
>David.
>
>
>At 18:45 12 July 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:45:08 +0200, Marian Aldenhövel
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> ... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
>>>> experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
>>>> system.
>>>
>>>Some do.
>>
>>Indceed some do - but very, very few.
>>If there really was an urgent need we'd have more than a couple of
>>such winches in Europe by now, don't you agree?
>>
>>>When I was trained as a winch driver I was taught to judge cable
tension
>
>>>and use that as the input parameter to the control loop. The only way
of
>
>>>doing that without special sensors is to look at the cable sag. Works
>>>during the main portion of the launch, but is not very accurate of
>>course.
>>
>>But sufficiently accurate, isn't it?
>>Contrary to the believe of some people here it doesn't matter if the
>>speed during the winch launch is 5 kts faster or slower (although the
>>perfect speed certainly increases launch height).
>>
>>>I think if the winch, or winch driver, has the means to control
tension
>
>>>and the pilot controls airspeed winch launches become more efficient
and
>
>>>even safer. Reports suggest that, I have no experience of my own.
>>
>>Efficiency? Definitely.
>>Safety? I doubt it.
>>I havent't been able to find even one accident report that was caused
>>by inappropriate power setting by the winch driver, yet there are
>>comparably many accidents caused by rope breaks or complete power
>>losses of the winch - things that cannot be prevented by tension
>>controlled speed.
>>
>>
>>>Also you would propably get much more consistent launch performance
>>>across different conditions and much more important, different
drivers.
>
>>
>>Indeed. Nice to have. :)
>>
>>>Today we get launches like being shot from a carrier deck and the
>>>lumbering wingrunner-testing type all in the same day depending on who

>>>is manning the winch. The first launches of the day, or after a driver

>>>swap, or when conditions change would no longer need to be different
>>>than those by a well-adapted driver.
>>
>>Typical problem of winch driver training. Once we started to re-train
>>our winch drivers who had problem scontroling the speed, we got rid of
>>this problem.
>>
>>
>>Viele Grüße
>>Andreas
>>
>

[Del C[_2_]]

If Skylaunches winches are supposed (by Bill Daniels) to be so bad, how
come I got 55knots on the nail (perfect speed) for every winch launch I
did on a Skylaunch today while instructing in a K13 in quite windy, rough
and gusty conditions? No oscillations, no over or underspeeds, no weak
link breaks and no unwanted gear changes.

Derek Copeland


At 21:45 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>I mis typed, ..
>the winch is relevant to a good launch, but the pilot is responsible for
>the safety,
>
>
>At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>>I would love to fly a tension controlled winch > we were launhing today
>in
>>to strong head winds increasing rapidly part way up the launch. I can
>>imagine it is better, but I am not an expert.
>>
>>Winch safety is mostly in the hands of the pilot, the winch is not
>>relevant to a good launch, but the trained pilot must be able to react
>to
>>any scenario.
>>
>>But other nonsense posted here . please help me, ...
>>
>>A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
adjust
>>the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
>>road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>>
>>David.
>>
>>
>>At 18:45 12 July 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>>On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:45:08 +0200, Marian Aldenhövel
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> ... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
>>>>> experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
>>>>> system.
>>>>
>>>>Some do.
>>>
>>>Indceed some do - but very, very few.
>>>If there really was an urgent need we'd have more than a couple of
>>>such winches in Europe by now, don't you agree?
>>>
>>>>When I was trained as a winch driver I was taught to judge cable
>tension
>>
>>>>and use that as the input parameter to the control loop. The only way
>of
>>
>>>>doing that without special sensors is to look at the cable sag. Works

>>>>during the main portion of the launch, but is not very accurate of
>>>course.
>>>
>>>But sufficiently accurate, isn't it?
>>>Contrary to the believe of some people here it doesn't matter if the
>>>speed during the winch launch is 5 kts faster or slower (although the
>>>perfect speed certainly increases launch height).
>>>
>>>>I think if the winch, or winch driver, has the means to control
>tension
>>
>>>>and the pilot controls airspeed winch launches become more efficient
>and
>>
>>>>even safer. Reports suggest that, I have no experience of my own.
>>>
>>>Efficiency? Definitely.
>>>Safety? I doubt it.
>>>I havent't been able to find even one accident report that was caused
>>>by inappropriate power setting by the winch driver, yet there are
>>>comparably many accidents caused by rope breaks or complete power
>>>losses of the winch - things that cannot be prevented by tension
>>>controlled speed.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Also you would propably get much more consistent launch performance
>>>>across different conditions and much more important, different
>drivers.
>>
>>>
>>>Indeed. Nice to have. :)
>>>
>>>>Today we get launches like being shot from a carrier deck and the
>>>>lumbering wingrunner-testing type all in the same day depending on
who
>
>>>>is manning the winch. The first launches of the day, or after a
driver
>
>>>>swap, or when conditions change would no longer need to be different
>>>>than those by a well-adapted driver.
>>>
>>>Typical problem of winch driver training. Once we started to re-train
>>>our winch drivers who had problem scontroling the speed, we got rid of
>>>this problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>Viele Grüße
>>>Andreas
>>>
>>
>

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 3:30*pm, David Chapman >
wrote:

> But other nonsense posted here . please help me, *...
>
> A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically adjust
> the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
> road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>

That 'magic' is called a torque converter which begins to slip and
multiply torque under increasing load. Stock units can double torque
to the wheels.

Modern transmissions use a torque converter locking clutch allowing an
even greater torque multipication factor after the clutch disengages
under load. The effect can be 4:1 or greater.

For basic info, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter

In addition, automobile engine torque curves have peak torque lower
than cruise RPM. As the vehicle encounters a load such as a hill, the
torque output actually increases as the RPM is pulled down by the
increasing load. The typical V8 used in glider winches has a torque
peak at about 1800 RPM.

The engine/transmission combination acts in exact opposition to what
is needed in a glider winch.

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 4:30*pm, Del C > wrote:
> If Skylaunches winches are supposed (by Bill Daniels) to be so bad, how
> come I got 55knots on the nail (perfect speed) *for every winch launch I
> did on a Skylaunch today while instructing in a K13 in quite windy, rough
> and gusty conditions? No oscillations, no over or underspeeds, no weak
> link breaks and no unwanted gear changes.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
> At 21:45 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>
>
>
> >I mis typed, *.. *
> >the winch is relevant to a good launch, but the pilot is responsible for
> >the safety,
>
> >At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
> >>I would love to fly a tension controlled winch > we were launhing today
> >in
> >>to strong head winds increasing rapidly part way up the launch. *I can
> >>imagine it is better, but I am not an expert.
>
> >>Winch safety is mostly in the hands of the pilot, the winch is not
> >>relevant to a good launch, but the trained pilot must be able to react
> >to
> >>any scenario.
>
> >>But other nonsense posted here . please help me, *...
>
> >>A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
> adjust
> >>the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
> >>road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>
> >>David.
>
> >>At 18:45 12 July 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> >>>On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:45:08 +0200, Marian Aldenhövel
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>>> ... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
> >>>>> experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
> >>>>> system.
>
> >>>>Some do.
>
> >>>Indceed some do - but very, very few.
> >>>If there really was an urgent need we'd have more than a couple of
> >>>such winches in Europe by now, don't you agree?
>
> >>>>When I was trained as a winch driver I was taught to judge cable
> >tension
>
> >>>>and use that as the input parameter to the control loop. The only way
> >of
>
> >>>>doing that without special sensors is to look at the cable sag. Works
> >>>>during the main portion of the launch, but is not very accurate of
> >>>course.
>
> >>>But sufficiently accurate, isn't it?
> >>>Contrary to the believe of some people here it doesn't matter if the
> >>>speed during the winch launch is 5 kts faster or slower (although the
> >>>perfect speed certainly increases launch height).
>
> >>>>I think if the winch, or winch driver, has the means to control
> >tension
>
> >>>>and the pilot controls airspeed winch launches become more efficient
> >and
>
> >>>>even safer. Reports suggest that, I have no experience of my own.
>
> >>>Efficiency? Definitely.
> >>>Safety? I doubt it.
> >>>I havent't been able to find even one accident report that was caused
> >>>by inappropriate power setting by the winch driver, yet there are
> >>>comparably many accidents caused by rope breaks or complete power
> >>>losses of the winch - things that cannot be prevented by tension
> >>>controlled speed.
>
> >>>>Also you would propably get much more consistent launch performance
> >>>>across different conditions and much more important, different
> >drivers.
>
> >>>Indeed. Nice to have. :)
>
> >>>>Today we get launches like being shot from a carrier deck and the
> >>>>lumbering wingrunner-testing type all in the same day depending on
> who
>
> >>>>is manning the winch. The first launches of the day, or after a
> driver
>
> >>>>swap, or when conditions change would no longer need to be different
> >>>>than those by a well-adapted driver.
>
> >>>Typical problem of winch driver training. Once we started to re-train
> >>>our winch drivers who had problem scontroling the speed, we got rid of
> >>>this problem.
>
> >>>Viele Grüße
> >>>Andreas

Because you operate at low throttle settings and you have no clue what
turbulent air is. Try flying in the desert sometime.

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 12:45*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:45:08 +0200, Marian Aldenhövel
>
> > wrote:
> >> ... yet thousands of clubs in Europe with much, much more winch
> >> experience than any club in the US don't see the need for such a
> >> system.
>
> >Some do.
>
> Indceed some do - but very, very few.
> If there really was an urgent need we'd have more than a couple of
> such winches in Europe by now, don't you agree?
>
> >When I was trained as a winch driver I was taught to judge cable tension
> >and use that as the input parameter to the control loop. The only way of
> >doing that without special sensors is to look at the cable sag. Works
> >during the main portion of the launch, but is not very accurate of course.
>
> But sufficiently accurate, isn't it?
> Contrary to the believe of some people here it doesn't matter if the
> speed during the winch launch is 5 kts faster or slower (although the
> perfect speed certainly increases launch height).
>
> >I think if the winch, or winch driver, has the means to control tension
> >and the pilot controls airspeed winch launches become more efficient and
> >even safer. Reports suggest that, I have no experience of my own.
>
> Efficiency? Definitely.
> Safety? I doubt it.
> I havent't been able to find even one accident report that was caused
> by inappropriate power setting by the winch driver, yet there are
> comparably many accidents caused by rope breaks or complete power
> losses of the winch - things that cannot be prevented by tension
> controlled speed.
>
> >Also you would propably get much more consistent launch performance
> >across different conditions and much more important, different drivers.
>
> Indeed. Nice to have. :)
>
> >Today we get launches like being shot from a carrier deck and the
> >lumbering wingrunner-testing type all in the same day depending on who
> >is manning the winch. The first launches of the day, or after a driver
> >swap, or when conditions change would no longer need to be different
> >than those by a well-adapted driver.
>
> Typical problem of winch driver training. Once we started to re-train
> our winch drivers who had problem scontroling the speed, we got rid of
> this problem.
>
> Viele Grüße
> Andreas

By those standards, starting cars with hand cranks was 'adequate' and
electric starters would be 'nice to have'.

In fact, tension control is relatively new technology based on vastly
increased knowledge of winch launch dynamics. It certainly has the
potential to increase safety in those cases where unexpected weather
or a human winch operator creates unexpected conditions.

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 23:01 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>
>In fact, tension control is relatively new technology based on vastly
>increased knowledge of winch launch dynamics. It certainly has the
>potential to increase safety in those cases where unexpected weather
>or a human winch operator creates unexpected conditions.
>

In fact it has the potential to be the most dangerous suggestion ever
encountered in glider winching.
Why is it that for years winches have been developed and used in the UK
and Europe with no real problems and all of a sudden someone comes up
with probably the most moronic suggestion ever and that is that if the
tension on the cable is increased the winch slows down to compensate.
So I leave the ground and the glider starts to rotate to the climb,
increasing the tension on the cable so it slows down. Brilliant, it takes
a real towering intellect to think that one through. I suppose the
explanation will be that there is some clever electronic gizzmo to
compensate. The problem with high technology systems is they do not tend
to be robust and they require regular maintainace to ensure their correct
operation, (MVG Winch is a perfect example, most of the advanced features
don't work) whereas a well trained winch driver can do the necessary
compensation using good old fashioned judgement far more safely.
I would far rather place my trust in a basic winch with a well trained
driver that rely on dubious untried engineering solutions driven by the
unknowing.
Skylaunch, Tost, Supercat and MVG winches perform very well with very few
problems. Skylaunch, or Skylaunch re-engined winches are probably now the
most popular winch in use in the UK. We like them and the many years of
experience that has gone into them.

PS We do not have deserts in the UK, and we don't cancel comps just
because 2 or 3 people don't get away either.

[bildan]

On Jul 12, 6:30*pm, Don Johnstone > wrote:
> At 23:01 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
>
>
> >In fact, tension control is relatively new technology based on vastly
> >increased knowledge of winch launch dynamics. *It certainly has the
> >potential to increase safety in those cases where unexpected weather
> >or a human winch operator creates unexpected conditions.
>
> In fact it has the potential to be the most dangerous suggestion ever
> encountered in glider winching.
> Why is it that for years winches have been developed and used in the UK
> and Europe with no real problems and all of a sudden someone *comes up
> with probably the most moronic suggestion ever and that is that if the
> tension on the cable is increased the winch slows down to compensate.
> So I leave the ground and the glider starts to rotate to the climb,
> increasing the tension on the cable so it slows down. Brilliant, it takes
> a real towering intellect to think that one through. I suppose the
> explanation will be that there is some clever electronic gizzmo to
> compensate. The problem with high technology systems is they do not tend
> to be robust and they require regular maintainace to ensure their correct
> operation, (MVG Winch is a perfect example, most of the advanced features
> don't work) whereas a well trained winch driver can do the necessary
> compensation using good old fashioned judgement far more safely.
> I would far rather place my trust in a basic winch with a well trained
> driver that rely on dubious untried engineering solutions driven by the
> unknowing.
> Skylaunch, Tost, Supercat and MVG winches perform very well with very few
> problems. Skylaunch, or Skylaunch re-engined winches are probably now the
> most popular winch in use in the UK. We like them and the many years of
> experience that has gone into them.
>
> PS We do not have deserts in the UK, and we don't cancel comps just
> because 2 or 3 people don't get away either.

Don, you have so utterly misunderstood the concept, it's difficult to
start a reply.

A tension controlled winch maintains tension, the pilot controls
speed. He does that in exactly the same way as in free flight - nose
up to slow, nose down to speed up. No matter what he does, the
tension remains at the same high percentage of the weak link
strength. The pilot cannot change the tension, only the speed. The
tension cannot exceed the weak link strength.

It's exactly like an airplane. Rope tension is the equivalent of
thrust. The winch provides the power and the pilot flies the glider.
The beauty is that no mater the turbulence wind layers or thermals,
airspeed remains under the pilots total control.

With an airplane on takeoff, even a powerful one, if you raise the
nose, the airspeed will decrease. If you lower the nose, the airspeed
will increase. It's how it works - hundreds of thousands of times a
day. A tension controlled winch does exactly the same thing.
Airplane pilots understand the concept instantly.

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>
>But other nonsense posted here . please help me, ...
>
>A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically adjust
>the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
>road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>
>David.
>
Bill Daniels has some very strange ideas as to how an automatic gearbox
works! As far as I am concerned, it is a device to allow a motor vehicle
to move off from rest, to smoothly change gears, and to stop without
stalling the engine, without a driver operated mechanical clutch. It is
not cruise control!

In that changing gear with a mechanical gearbox and clutch would give
dangerous short term losses of power, an automatic gearbox is an essential
component for any winch or towcar.

Derek Copeland

[Dave Martin[_3_]]

Bill

The arguments are now in an endless repetative cycle fired by the theories
you propose and the convenient practicalities of the European systems, also
used by older US winches - still in use today.

There is only one solution the challenge is there -- get the winch built
with the new technology and at a competetive price and put it on the
market.

Like new glider technology if it works people will use it.

Sadly much as we would like to do it we cannot change overnight.

Look how long it has taken to get the EB28 technology into a practical
aircraft --- but at what cost and how many of us can actually afford it?

Dave

At 07:15 13 July 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
>At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>>
>>But other nonsense posted here . please help me, ...
>>
>>A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
adjust
>>the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
>>road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>>
>>David.
>>
>Bill Daniels has some very strange ideas as to how an automatic gearbox
>works! As far as I am concerned, it is a device to allow a motor vehicle
>to move off from rest, to smoothly change gears, and to stop without
>stalling the engine, without a driver operated mechanical clutch. It is
>not cruise control!
>
>In that changing gear with a mechanical gearbox and clutch would give
>dangerous short term losses of power, an automatic gearbox is an
essential
>component for any winch or towcar.
>
>Derek Copeland
>

[Del C[_2_]]

Unless Bill has invented a perpetual motion machine, you can't get more
power out of a mechanical device (such as an automatic gearbox) than you
put in. You can gear that power down to get more torque, but the Skylaunch
winch depends on supplying the right amount of power (related to throttle
setting) for the given glider type and headwind component. The automatic
gearbox is only useful to provide some extra torque at low revs to get the
glider moving at the start of the ground run without stalling the engine.

Derek Copeland

At 22:45 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 12, 3:30=A0pm, David Chapman
>wrote:
>
>> But other nonsense posted here . please help me, =A0...
>>
>> A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
adjust
>> the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing
gear,
>> road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>>
>
>That 'magic' is called a torque converter which begins to slip and
>multiply torque under increasing load. Stock units can double torque
>to the wheels.
>
>Modern transmissions use a torque converter locking clutch allowing an
>even greater torque multipication factor after the clutch disengages
>under load. The effect can be 4:1 or greater.
>
>For basic info, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
>
>In addition, automobile engine torque curves have peak torque lower
>than cruise RPM. As the vehicle encounters a load such as a hill, the
>torque output actually increases as the RPM is pulled down by the
>increasing load. The typical V8 used in glider winches has a torque
>peak at about 1800 RPM.
>
>The engine/transmission combination acts in exact opposition to what
>is needed in a glider winch.
>

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 14:52 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>Do I have an emotional bias against crappy engineering? Damn right I
>do - especially when it's being sold as the 'perfect' solution.

My club in New Jersey used to operate a winch. It was before my time
(hard to believe anything was before my time, but there you are). It was
made from a Model A Ford chassis. One rear axle was welded solid and a
drum (probably made from an old truck wheel) was mounted on the other axle
with the launch rope wrapped around it. They launched down the side of a
hill and had one helluva lot of fun doing it.

OK, this was back in the 1930s, as I've heard the tales.

We'd all like to have the ultimate winch to launch with. We'd also like
to all have Ferraris to drive. Most of us settle for what we can afford,
and try to avoid letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.

Jim Beckman

[bildan]

On Jul 13, 1:15*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>
> >But other nonsense posted here . please help me, *...
>
> >A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically adjust
> >the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
> >road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>
> >David.
>
> Bill Daniels has some very strange ideas as to how an automatic gearbox
> works! As far as I am concerned, it is a device to allow a motor vehicle
> to move off from rest, to smoothly change gears, and to stop without
> stalling the engine, without a driver operated mechanical clutch. It is
> not cruise control!
>
> In that changing gear with a mechanical gearbox and clutch would give
> dangerous short term losses of power, an automatic gearbox is an essential
> component for any winch or towcar.
>
> Derek Copeland

The only strange part is your inability to read and understand
technical manuals. No one except yourself used the term "cruise
control". Automatic transmissions are extremely complicated devices
with complex behaviors that cannot be understood in your simple terms.

[bildan]

On Jul 13, 2:45*am, Dave Martin > wrote:
> Bill
>
> The arguments are now in an endless repetative cycle fired by the theories
> you propose and the convenient practicalities of the European systems, also
> used by older US winches *- still in use today.
>
> There is only one solution the challenge is there -- get the winch built
> with the new technology and at a competetive price and put it on the
> market.
>
> Like new glider technology if it works people will use it.
>
> Sadly much as we would like to do it we cannot change overnight.
>
> Look how long it has taken to get the EB28 technology into a practical
> aircraft --- but at what cost and how many of us can actually afford it?
>
> Dave
>
> *At 07:15 13 July 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
>
> >At 21:30 12 July 2009, David Chapman wrote:
>
> >>But other nonsense posted here . please help me, *...
>
> >>A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
> adjust
> >>the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing gear,
> >>road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>
> >>David.
>
> >Bill Daniels has some very strange ideas as to how an automatic gearbox
> >works! As far as I am concerned, it is a device to allow a motor vehicle
> >to move off from rest, to smoothly change gears, and to stop without
> >stalling the engine, without a driver operated mechanical clutch. It is
> >not cruise control!
>
> >In that changing gear with a mechanical gearbox and clutch would give
> >dangerous short term losses of power, an automatic gearbox is an
> essential
> >component for any winch or towcar.
>
> >Derek Copeland

We are doing exactly that - and it's working! It's what has the Brits
so agitated.

[Bob]

After reading these cat fights for well over a year, and now that it
has spilled out into RAS, I think this public (and personal) argument
is doing harm to potential winch activity in the U.S. There are many
glider pilots in the U.S. who believe that winch launching is more
dangerous than aerotow… and this endless debate, about the merits of
one technology over another, just fuels that skepticism.

Engineers, by personality and training, want clear-cut black and white
answers to a problem. The fact is that there is a lot of gray involved
in what works with winch equipment. Regardless of the merits of new
winch technology, Europe has been effectively winch launching for many
decades with “traditional” mechanical technology. Setting the
engineering skirmish aside, the old technology is proven to work over
the course of hundreds of thousands of launches. Maybe the “new”
technology is better, but keeping it in context – it is a potential
alternative to the proven traditional technology, not *THE* definitive
answer. This is what is being lost in this ongoing point and counter-
point dialog.

There are many of us who believe in the merits of winch launching; and
that U.S. glider pilots would benefit from the widespread adoption of
the technique. However, from a management standpoint these ongoing
inscrutable arguments are a winch advocate’s public relations
nightmare. The fact is that traditional automotive-based winch
technology works, as proven by decades of successful use. The
developing new technology may be an improvement, but that in no way
negates the wide-spread use of lower cost existing technology.

It would benefit the soaring community if the polarized principals in
this personal disagreement would spend their time advocating winch
launching as a method, rather than publically arguing over technical
details that may or may not be relevant. For most of us involved in
winching, the debate is somewhat amusing (if not distressing), but
what is does do is to support anti-winch sentiment in the U.S.

Just as we can effectively train new pilots in a K-13 or a DG-1000, we
can effectively and safely winch launch with automotive-based hardware
or new technology hardware. If we could re-focus this obsessive, bias,
and argumentative dialog into promoting the use of ground launching it
would be of greater benefit to the soaring community at large.

Anyone agree?

Bob Lacovara
(Winch pilot, winch driver, winch advocate)

[bildan]

On Jul 13, 6:30*am, Del C > wrote:
> Unless Bill has invented a perpetual motion machine, you can't get more
> power out of a mechanical device (such as an automatic gearbox) than you
> put in. You can gear that power down to get more torque, but the Skylaunch
> winch depends on supplying the right amount of power (related to throttle
> setting) for the given glider type and headwind component. The automatic
> gearbox is only useful to provide some extra torque at low revs to get the
> glider moving at the start of the ground run without stalling the engine.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
> At 22:45 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
> >On Jul 12, 3:30=A0pm, David Chapman
> >wrote:
>
> >> But other nonsense posted here . please help me, =A0...
>
> >> A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
> adjust
> >> the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing
> gear,
> >> road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>
> >That 'magic' is called a torque converter which begins to slip and
> >multiply torque under increasing load. *Stock units can double torque
> >to the wheels.
>
> >Modern transmissions use a torque converter locking clutch allowing an
> >even greater torque multipication factor after the clutch disengages
> >under load. *The effect can be 4:1 or greater.
>
> >For basic info, see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
>
> >In addition, automobile engine torque curves have peak torque lower
> >than cruise RPM. *As the vehicle encounters a load such as a hill, the
> >torque output actually increases as the RPM is pulled down by the
> >increasing load. *The typical V8 used in glider winches has a torque
> >peak at about 1800 RPM.
>
> >The engine/transmission combination acts in exact opposition to what
> >is needed in a glider winch.

In fact, with an automatic transmission in the drive line, it's
impossible to ever get the rope tension exactly right - certainly not
with something as simple minded as a throttle stop.

Most of what an automatic actually does in a glider winch is either
unnecessary or detrimental. Only the auto-clutch action at idle is
useful and there are far better ways to do that. The only
justification for using an automatic in a winch is that it's cheap and
comes with the engine.

The idea that low starting gears are necessary with a glider winch is
absurd. Tost gutted their automatics - even while saying automatics
were dangerous - to eliminate everything but the torque converter
leaving the box in it's straight through 1:1 ratio. Simple torque
calculations show that 3rd gear is capable of breaking the strongest
weak link during acceleration. Stepping through 1st and 2nd gears
only makes it more difficult to achieve accurate acceleration.

[Wayne Paul]

After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. The discussions became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the WinchDesign group.



..

[Del C[_2_]]

When our Tost winches were fitted with 'one speed' (fixed in top)
automatic gearboxes, the ground run acceleration for the heavier two
seater was somewhat ponderous, although they could still rocket launch
lightweight K8 single seaters. They also tended to overheat the gearbox
oil, despite being fitted with big oil coolers with electric fans.

This was also why you had to apply full throttle to get the gliders moving
and then back off as the gliders entered the full climb, to avoid a huge
overspeed. From a winch driver's point of view, it was hard to get this
right, which was probably the cause of some of the awful launches we used
to have to endure in that era.

Derek Copeland


At 14:49 13 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 13, 6:30=A0am, Del C wrote:
>> Unless Bill has invented a perpetual motion machine, you can't get
more
>> power out of a mechanical device (such as an automatic gearbox) than
you
>> put in. You can gear that power down to get more torque, but the
>Skylaunc=
>h
>> winch depends on supplying the right amount of power (related to
>throttle
>> setting) for the given glider type and headwind component. The
automatic
>> gearbox is only useful to provide some extra torque at low revs to get
>th=
>e
>> glider moving at the start of the ground run without stalling the
>engine.
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>>
>> At 22:45 12 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>>
>> >On Jul 12, 3:30=3DA0pm, David Chapman
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >> But other nonsense posted here . please help me, =3DA0...
>>
>> >> A standard car auto gearbox has some magic power to automatically
>> adjust
>> >> the torque to the car wheels on reaching a hill, without changing
>> gear,
>> >> road speed or engine setting? What magic is that?
>>
>> >That 'magic' is called a torque converter which begins to slip and
>> >multiply torque under increasing load. =A0Stock units can double
torque
>> >to the wheels.
>>
>> >Modern transmissions use a torque converter locking clutch allowing
an
>> >even greater torque multipication factor after the clutch disengages
>> >under load. =A0The effect can be 4:1 or greater.
>>
>> >For basic info, see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
>>
>> >In addition, automobile engine torque curves have peak torque lower
>> >than cruise RPM. =A0As the vehicle encounters a load such as a hill,
>the
>> >torque output actually increases as the RPM is pulled down by the
>> >increasing load. =A0The typical V8 used in glider winches has a
torque
>> >peak at about 1800 RPM.
>>
>> >The engine/transmission combination acts in exact opposition to what
>> >is needed in a glider winch.
>
>In fact, with an automatic transmission in the drive line, it's
>impossible to ever get the rope tension exactly right - certainly not
>with something as simple minded as a throttle stop.
>
>Most of what an automatic actually does in a glider winch is either
>unnecessary or detrimental. Only the auto-clutch action at idle is
>useful and there are far better ways to do that. The only
>justification for using an automatic in a winch is that it's cheap and
>comes with the engine.
>
>The idea that low starting gears are necessary with a glider winch is
>absurd. Tost gutted their automatics - even while saying automatics
>were dangerous - to eliminate everything but the torque converter
>leaving the box in it's straight through 1:1 ratio. Simple torque
>calculations show that 3rd gear is capable of breaking the strongest
>weak link during acceleration. Stepping through 1st and 2nd gears
>only makes it more difficult to achieve accurate acceleration.
>

[Bob]

Yeah... well, my point exactly. Over and out.

Bob Lacovara

[bildan]

On Jul 11, 1:34*pm, johngalloway > wrote:
> On 11 July, 14:36, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 2:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> > At my club we typically get about 1600ft in no wind and
>
> > > 2000ft launching into a 10 knot headwind. Our standard aerotows are 2000ft,
> > > but you can go as high as you like, depending on your needs and the depth
> > > of your wallet.
>
> > This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
> > 9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch. *With
> > no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
> > winch with an automatic transmission.
>
> > Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
> > exactly the same components. *They are not particularly well
> > controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
> > transmissions free to shift gears when they please. *The old junk
> > Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
> > world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>
> > BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
> > at all?
>
> This account of the performance of the Skylaunch winch is, as Bill has
> repeatedly been told previously elsewhere by pilots who actually
> operate or launch on Skylaunch winches, utterly false and his
> obsessive denigration of it is disgraceful. *Our club had a Skylaunch
> winch for evaluation for six days a couple of weeks ago. *The
> smoothness of launch is faultless and a vast improvement over Supacat
> and Tost winches
>
> The fact that the automatic transmission can shift gears "when they
> please" is a complete non issue. *The gear changes up at the start of
> the launch occur within the first 2-3 seconds (timed by me) and before
> the glider has rotated into the climb. *The gear changes are
> completely imperceptible in the glider. *None of numerous pilots on
> the ground near the winch during launches note the upwards gear
> changes without being prompted to listen out for them - an even then
> there was soe debate about whether they could be detected.
> Occasionally the autobox changes down to second during the mid launch
> when under load but at no time was any of the many pilots launched
> aware of any gear change.
>
> The operational mechanisms of the Skylaunch are not designed to
> "control" the launch so it is not surprising that it does not do so.
> What it does have is an interconnected maximum throttle position guide
> that takes into account the type of the glider and the headwind
> component. *This means that each glider is effectively provided with a
> winch with an appropriately powered engine for itself and the wind
> conditions in the mid launch. *The winch driver still has to control
> the start and end of the launch - by advancing the throttle control at
> an appropriate rate at the start (about 3 seconds IMHO) and backing
> off the power at the top. *The predictable response of the good old GM
> V8 to load means that the plot can pull into a steep climb without
> fear of overspeeding.
>
> The new US winches may turn out to be brilliant but Bill's emotional
> bias invalidates him as an objective reporter in my opinion.
>
> John Galloway

Look, I didn't start this thread. You don't have a perfect winch and
neither does anybody else. There's a LOT of room for improvements in
every aspect of winch design. Keep an open mind.

If you think that automatic gear changes don't matter, put a tension
logger on yours for a few launches. The results will astonish you.

What gets my dander up is "emotional" opposition to all attempts at
innovation based on the idea that your domestic winch is 'perfect'.

[Del C[_2_]]

At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
>After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
>participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. The discussions =
>became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.
>
>I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
>WinchDesign group.
>
I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
countries do the majority of their launches this way.

The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.

Derek Copeland

[Del C[_2_]]

At 15:53 13 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
>Look, I didn't start this thread. You don't have a perfect winch and
>neither does anybody else. There's a LOT of room for improvements in
>every aspect of winch design. Keep an open mind.
>
>If you think that automatic gear changes don't matter, put a tension
>logger on yours for a few launches. The results will astonish you.
>
>What gets my dander up is "emotional" opposition to all attempts at
>innovation based on the idea that your domestic winch is 'perfect'.
>
Sorry to ask you this again Bill, but could you please quantify what
problems your alleged 'tension spikes' actually cause? We just don't
seem to get weak link or cable breaks associated with gearchanges. Even if
they do exist, there is enough elasticity in a 1km plus winch cable to
absorb them. As you have been told repeatedly by everyone with a decent
quality automatic gearbox winch, the gear changes are totally smooth and
imperceptible at the glider end.

And can you prove that your mega expensive superwinches will do any better
in rough conditions with a wobbly student pilot at the controls of the
glider?

Derek Copeland

[Wayne Paul]

"Del C" > wrote in message ...
> At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
>>After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
>>participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. The discussions =
>>became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.
>>
>>I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
>>WinchDesign group.
>>
> I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
> environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
> gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
> countries do the majority of their launches this way.
>
> The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
> to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
> who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
> given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.
>
> Derek Copeland

I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.

I can remember asking a simple naive question on the WinchDesign group and being attacted by two Europeans who thought I was taking sides in a long standing argument. I was new to the group and didn't realize I was expected to read every posting on the News Group so as to be enlightened both technically and politically before being allowed to speak. As I watched I realized that emotion was driving the threads and engineering had almost vanished in the background. So... I left.

With sadness, I see the same thing happening here. I do not have the background to take sides; however, I see that the same emotionally charged cast of characters have simply moved their fight from the Yahoo News Group to here. It is sad, because in the name of enlightening the US soaring community to the value of using a good winch system, they are planting seed of doubt as to whether any winch can really be considered safe.

I just wish for all concerned that this thread would die.

[Marc Ramsey[_3_]]

At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
> After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I
> stopped participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group.
> The discussions became personal, agressive, angry, and
> absent of civility.
>
> I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back
> to the WinchDesign group.

Uh, no, we don't want this in the Winch Design group, either, I've had
to resort to moderating away further discussion of this particular topic.
At the moment, we're having a rather informative discussion on various
techniques for fabricating drums...

Marc

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Hi Wayne,

It seems to me that you need to build up a critical mass of expertise, and
clubs with winch launching facilities in the US. In the UK I can visit 4
other clubs within a 50 mile radius of my home club who also winch launch,
so we can share experience and learn from each other. Germany is very
similar.

As I and others have pointed out before, you already have most of the
necessary ingredients to build good quality winches in the States,
particularly lots of vehicles with big powerful V8 engines and good
automatic gearboxes that can be transplanted into winches. We in Europe
actually import such things from you. Most of our winches use big block
Chevys or big secondhand diesel engines from trucks or earth movers.

Even with an almost technically perfect winch (nothing is ever totally
perfect), you will still have the occasional cable break, weak link break,
technical failure, or driver error, not to mention wing drops due to gusts.
Safe winch launching is basically about being mentally prepared to deal
with such problems as they arise. In the UK our pre-flight check list
includes an E for Eventualities, where you pre-brief yourself as to how to
deal with all the likely failures and problems that might occur during any
sort of launch, including aerotows.

Suggest that you have a read of:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm

By the way, I learnt wire launching by autowing, where about every fifth
launch was a cable break, especially as the cables became worn from
dragging them along an asphalt runway. This was far from a technically
perfect solution, but I got very good at dealing with launch failures and
never came close to killing myself. I actually had a launch failure on my
first and third solos on the same day, with only the second one going full
term to a vaguely respectable height of about 1000 feet. If anyone tells
you that autotowing is a great way of launching gliders, they are lying!
We get at least 1600 feet from our winch launches off a much shorter run.
It was still good fun though. Once we had gone solo we were also expected
to drive the towcars, after a little bit of training.

Cheers,
Derek Copeland


At 16:42 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
>
>
>I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As =
>elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer. =20
>
>I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope
=
>to get the training in the near future. =20
>
>In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a
=
>CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a
=
>couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; =
>however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This =
>should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.
>
>I can remember asking a simple naive question on the WinchDesign group =
>and being attacted by two Europeans who thought I was taking sides in a
=
>long standing argument. I was new to the group and didn't realize I was
=
>expected to read every posting on the News Group so as to be enlightened
=
>both technically and politically before being allowed to speak. As I =
>watched I realized that emotion was driving the threads and engineering
=
>had almost vanished in the background. So... I left.
>
>With sadness, I see the same thing happening here. I do not have the =
>background to take sides; however, I see that the same emotionally =
>charged cast of characters have simply moved their fight from the Yahoo
=
>News Group to here. It is sad, because in the name of enlightening the
=
>US soaring community to the value of using a good winch system, they are
=
>planting seed of doubt as to whether any winch can really be considered
=
>safe.
>
>I just wish for all concerned that this thread would die.
>
>
>

[Wayne Paul]

Derek,

You have identified a major problem in the first paragraph. It is hard to create a "critical mass" when the state where you live covers 83,642 square miles and only has a population density of 15.64 people/sq mile. The area of England is only 50,346 square mile; however, has a population density of 1,015/sq mile. Our density is only 1.6 percent of England's.

As a result of the low population density it is hard to form a viable club. Locally forming a club has been tried on at least three separate occasions all of which resulted in failure. Consequently all the local gliders are privately owned.

The large geographic provides a great opportunity to fly cross-country. All the local pilots fly cross-country. As a result we seldom have more then 10 launches a day. This makes aero-tows the most practical launch form.

Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced the wench as our primary launch mode.

Respectfully,

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/


"Derek Copeland" > wrote in message ...
> Hi Wayne,
>
> It seems to me that you need to build up a critical mass of expertise, and
> clubs with winch launching facilities in the US. In the UK I can visit 4
> other clubs within a 50 mile radius of my home club who also winch launch,
> so we can share experience and learn from each other. Germany is very
> similar.
>
> As I and others have pointed out before, you already have most of the
> necessary ingredients to build good quality winches in the States,
> particularly lots of vehicles with big powerful V8 engines and good
> automatic gearboxes that can be transplanted into winches. We in Europe
> actually import such things from you. Most of our winches use big block
> Chevys or big secondhand diesel engines from trucks or earth movers.
>
> Even with an almost technically perfect winch (nothing is ever totally
> perfect), you will still have the occasional cable break, weak link break,
> technical failure, or driver error, not to mention wing drops due to gusts.
> Safe winch launching is basically about being mentally prepared to deal
> with such problems as they arise. In the UK our pre-flight check list
> includes an E for Eventualities, where you pre-brief yourself as to how to
> deal with all the likely failures and problems that might occur during any
> sort of launch, including aerotows.
>
> Suggest that you have a read of:
>
> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm
>
> By the way, I learnt wire launching by autowing, where about every fifth
> launch was a cable break, especially as the cables became worn from
> dragging them along an asphalt runway. This was far from a technically
> perfect solution, but I got very good at dealing with launch failures and
> never came close to killing myself. I actually had a launch failure on my
> first and third solos on the same day, with only the second one going full
> term to a vaguely respectable height of about 1000 feet. If anyone tells
> you that autotowing is a great way of launching gliders, they are lying!
> We get at least 1600 feet from our winch launches off a much shorter run.
> It was still good fun though. Once we had gone solo we were also expected
> to drive the towcars, after a little bit of training.
>
> Cheers,
> Derek Copeland

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 23:31 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
>Derek,

>Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced
=
>the wench as our primary launch mode.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Wayne

We gave up on that idea long ago, trying to get our ladies to run that
fast proved beynd our capabilities so we built winches instead.

[bildan]

On Jul 13, 10:30*am, Del C > wrote:
> At 15:53 13 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
> >Look, I didn't start this thread. *You don't have a perfect winch and
> >neither does anybody else. *There's a LOT of room for improvements in
> >every aspect of winch design. *Keep an open mind.
>
> >If you think that automatic gear changes don't matter, put a tension
> >logger on yours for a few launches. *The results will astonish you.
>
> >What gets my dander up is "emotional" opposition to all attempts at
> >innovation based on the idea that your domestic winch is 'perfect'.
>
> Sorry to ask you this again Bill, but could you please quantify what
> problems your alleged 'tension spikes' actually cause? We just don't
> seem to get weak link or cable breaks associated with gearchanges. Even if
> they do exist, there is enough elasticity in a 1km plus winch cable to
> absorb them. As you have been told repeatedly by everyone with a decent
> quality automatic gearbox winch, the gear changes are totally smooth and
> imperceptible at the glider end.
>
> And can you prove that your mega expensive superwinches will do any better
> in rough conditions with a wobbly student pilot at the controls of the
> glider?
>
> Derek Copeland

This is just more rabble rousing. You know the answer, you've seen
the data from winches in your own country. Seeing tension oscillate
by 80% of the tension limits is very scary and it does lead to
problems including wire and weak link breaks. You actually begged me
once not to publish the tension charts or even mention the problem.
(I saved the e-mail in case you deny it.) I have a LOT more tension
charts - really ugly ones. You don't want me to publish them either.

All the current winches are priced within a few thousand dollars of
each other so there are no "mega expensive winches" - except they're
unfortunately all too expensive.

My agenda is simple; help build the best winches in the world without
constant and distinctly unwelcome interference from people with
nothing constructive to add. In all the years you've been posting
about winch construction, you've never added a single new idea. But
you've campaigned loudly and often against any every offered by anyone
else.

I've read every BGA publication on winch launch that's ever been
published. I've read every training BGA syllabus - and I've read ALL
your accident reports. Your accident record is far from the best.
It's in a three ring binder about 4" thick on my bookshelf. Your
stuff is OK but no better than other sources.

So, here's an offer. Stop attacking everything we do and I won't
comment about the Skylaunch. We are going to build, publicly test and
write detailed articles about our winches. I expect no derogatory
commentary from you.

We are not British Subjects and certainly not your students.

[Wayne Paul]

"Don Johnstone" > wrote in message ...
> At 23:31 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
>>Derek,
>
>>Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced
> =
>>the wench as our primary launch mode.
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>
>>Wayne
>
> We gave up on that idea long ago, trying to get our ladies to run that
> fast proved beynd our capabilities so we built winches instead.

LOL, ... and I had tried so hard to avoid making that specific typographical error!!

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 13, 10:42*am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
> "Del C" > wrote in ...
> > At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
> >>After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
> >>participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. *The discussions =
> >>became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.
>
> >>I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
> >>WinchDesign group.
>
> > I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
> > environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
> > gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
> > countries do the majority of their launches this way.
>
> > The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
> > to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
> > who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
> > given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. *As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer. *
>
> I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future. *
>
> In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. *There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. *This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.
>

Wayne,

I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
winch for King Mountain. Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
about out there readers? We may be launching with one starting
Tuesday. I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
Colorado this year.

Frank Whiteley

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 01:07 14 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>This is just more rabble rousing. You know the answer, you've seen
>the data from winches in your own country. Seeing tension oscillate
>by 80% of the tension limits is very scary and it does lead to
>problems including wire and weak link breaks. You actually begged me
>once not to publish the tension charts or even mention the problem.
>(I saved the e-mail in case you deny it.) I have a LOT more tension
>charts - really ugly ones. You don't want me to publish them either.
>
>All the current winches are priced within a few thousand dollars of
>each other so there are no "mega expensive winches" - except they're
>unfortunately all too expensive.
>
>My agenda is simple; help build the best winches in the world without
>constant and distinctly unwelcome interference from people with
>nothing constructive to add. In all the years you've been posting
>about winch construction, you've never added a single new idea. But
>you've campaigned loudly and often against any every offered by anyone
>else.
>
>I've read every BGA publication on winch launch that's ever been
>published. I've read every training BGA syllabus - and I've read ALL
>your accident reports. Your accident record is far from the best.
>It's in a three ring binder about 4" thick on my bookshelf. Your
>stuff is OK but no better than other sources.
>
>So, here's an offer. Stop attacking everything we do and I won't
>comment about the Skylaunch. We are going to build, publicly test and
>write detailed articles about our winches. I expect no derogatory
>commentary from you.
>
>We are not British Subjects and certainly not your students.

I am struggling to understand what cable tension has to do with anything.
I have been winch launched 10000 times and have driven a winch for many
more launches than that over 50 years and the only thing that concerns me
is the speed of the cable retrieval at the delivery end. Yes I use the bow
in the cable to keep the speed constant but this is a relative thing, not
an absolute. I accelerate quicker than most drivers to keep the ground run
as short as possible and to give the pilot aerodynamic control as quickly
as possible. I also reduce the speed at the top of the launch often
causing the glider to back release.
It really does not matter how it is done but the important thing is that
the control applied by the winch driver is reflected in the response of
the winch to his input at the business end.
I can think of few, if any accidents that have been caused by "tension
spikes" whatever they are, and a lot caused by varying amounts of a lack
of skill.
It is a real shame that people are being denied an economic alternative
launch procedure by ignorance. It does not have to be complicated, in fact
given the use to which it is put the simpler the better.
The winches we have in the UK work, and they work well. Reading some of
the postings about tension control has been interesting in an amusing sort
of way, well actually it's been a hoot.
Learn from the mistakes of the Munster Van Gelder winch, an excellent
winch with many advanced features, most of which are switched off in
normal operation. The servicing overhead is massive and the only people
able to run them, with one exception is the RAF. Yes it gives an
excellent launch, probably the best I have ever had but at a huge cost in
maintenance overheads. Why, because it is too complicated with too many
advanced features even when driven by what are really proffesional winch
drivers.

I am also struggling to understand why so much notice is being taken of
someone who obviously knows so little about the practical operation of
glider winches. As Wayne has said, almost no winching is carried out in
the USA so I would have thought it sensible to consult those who do
operate winches rather than some crackpot with wild ideas and zero
knowledge.

[Wayne Paul]

Frank,

I believe that John Kangas is also mowing the King Mountain Glider Park
"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message ...
On Jul 13, 10:42 am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
>
> I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.
>
> I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.
>
> In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.
>

Wayne,

I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
winch for King Mountain. Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
about out there readers? We may be launching with one starting
Tuesday. I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
Colorado this year.

Frank Whiteley

[Wayne Paul]

Frank,

John Kangas mowed the King Mountain Glider Park (http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/) last week end. He also installed tie-downs getting ready for the Aug 17 "grand opening" . (Are you planning to attend?)

As you know, one of John's goals is the installation of a winch. He feels the field's proximity to the mountain and associate know areas which generate thermals will make flying cross-country from a winch a "piece of cake." I am sure he would be interested in knowing about an old Gehrlein that is languishing somewhere here in the US. (There is also a glider operation "start up" in Baker City, OR that is looking for an old winch.)

I flew my Gold 300km triangle out of Mackay, Idaho and one of the turnpoints was the King Mountain Glider Park coordinates. (http://www.soaridaho.com/Flights/6F_Gold_Distance.html)

With the proximity of both the King Mountain Glider Park and Baker City, a CG hook for my HP-14 is on my winter project list.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message ...
On Jul 13, 10:42 am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
> "Del C" > wrote in ...
> > At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
>
> I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.
>
> I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.
>
> In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.
>

Wayne,

I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
winch for King Mountain. Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
about out there readers? We may be launching with one starting
Tuesday. I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
Colorado this year.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

Unfortunately, I have a wedding here in Colorado to attend, so I won't
be able to come to Idaho.

Frank

On Jul 14, 6:12*am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
> Frank,
>
> I believe that John Kangas is also mowing the King Mountain Glider Park"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in ...
>
> On Jul 13, 10:42 am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.
>
> > I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.
>
> > In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.
>
> Wayne,
>
> I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
> winch for King Mountain. *Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
> about out there readers? *We may be launching with one starting
> Tuesday. *I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
> recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
> Colorado this year.
>
> Frank Whiteley

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

Bob wrote:
> <Snip...>
> Maybe the “new”
> technology is better, but keeping it in context – it is a potential
> alternative to the proven traditional technology, not *THE* definitive
> answer. This is what is being lost in this ongoing point and counter-
> point dialog.
Indeed...
- - - - - -

> There are many of us who believe in the merits of winch launching; and
> that U.S. glider pilots would benefit from the widespread adoption of
> the technique.
And I'm one of 'em. Soaring as an activity is sufficiently arcane and
the group (worldwide) that practices it sufficiently thinly spread that
internecine warfare fits the "foot shot" definition, in my book.
- - - - - -

> It would benefit the soaring community if the polarized principals in
> this personal disagreement would spend their time advocating winch
> launching as a method, rather than publicly arguing over technical
> details that may or may not be relevant.
"Roger that!" (What a concept!!!)
- - - - - -

> <Snip>... If we could re-focus this obsessive, bias,
> and argumentative dialog into promoting the use of ground launching it
> would be of greater benefit to the soaring community at large.
>
> Anyone agree?
"Ayup..."
- - - - - -

> Bob Lacovara
> (Winch pilot, winch driver, winch advocate)
Ditto your sig-line and tack-on 'engineer/*soaring* advocate.' (Sadly,
sometimes that last does NOT go without saying!) :-)

Bob - all soaring is good - W.

[Gary Emerson]

Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????

Are you making them at the weak link??

Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?

I'd really like to know...

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 22:34 14 July 2009, Gary Emerson wrote:
>Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????
>
>Are you making them at the weak link??
>
>Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?
>
>I'd really like to know...


That is the question that is puzzling me too. The tension sensed by the
winch will, and should be constantly changing during the launch, measuring
that would be, how can I put it, useless.
The tension at the glider release hook will be relatively constant but
measuring that introduces the problem of the addional weight of the device
that does it and a reliable transmission of data to the ground.

[Marc Ramsey[_3_]]

At 22:34 14 July 2009, Gary Emerson wrote:
>Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????
>
>Are you making them at the weak link??
>
>Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?
>
>I'd really like to know...
>

I'm going to throw in my two cents here. I've been trying to get hard
data and information from first hand experiences for several years, now,
there just isn't much real stuff publicly available. There is, however,
a growing body of theory (which is good), speculation (not so good), and a
lot of bold statements that I have been, so far, unable to verify.

First, as far as I find out, the only tension/torque controlled winches
currently in day to day use use either electric or hydraulic drive
systems. For an electric winch, the torque applied to the drum can be
controlled based on drive current and drum speed. In the hydraulic case,
torque control is achieved by adjusting hydraulic pressure. In both
cases, this allows applying a specific amount of torque to the drum, which
approximates the desired amount of tension on the rope. In neither case is
the actual rope tension being measured. Drum inertia, rope oscillations,
etc., will also affect the rope tension. Apparently, though, at least
some of these winches provide tension controlled launches on a practical
basis.

There is one winch with an automated controls system under development in
the US, which uses a diesel engine and automatic transmission, with a
running line tensiometer (RLT) at the winch end. I have not been able to
obtain any information on whether the tension control program is actually
in use, and whether it is resulting in any real improvement over more
conventional winch launches.

One group in the UK has flown with a recording load cell to collect data
during a dispute with the manufacturer of their (conventional) winch. The
load cell was apparently placed at the weak link end of the rope. I've
seen about 10 distinct graphs produced by this device, and they look
terrible (large excursions in tension). However, despite loud
proclamations that "hundreds" of similar flights have been recorded on
several winches, I've never been able to get hold of any further data. I
also have been unable to obtain information on the device itself, how it
was calibrated, the circumstances under which the data was recorded, and
whether there were electrical, mechanical, driver, and/or pilot related
issues that could affect the data.

It does look rather straightforward to put a recording or wireless load
cell at the glider end of the rope, or use an RLT or even measure the load
directly from the winch axle (which I'll have provision for in the winch
I'm designing). So, I expect we'll be seeing more data in the future.

That's all I know at the moment, if there is anyone lurking out there
with solid data, I'd love to hear about it...

Marc

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

At 00:30 15 July 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 22:34 14 July 2009, Gary Emerson wrote:
>>Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????
>>
>>Are you making them at the weak link??
>>
>>Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?
>>
>>I'd really like to know...
>
>
>That is the question that is puzzling me too. The tension sensed by the
>winch will, and should be constantly changing during the launch,
measuring
>that would be, how can I put it, useless.
>The tension at the glider release hook will be relatively constant but
>measuring that introduces the problem of the addional weight of the
device
>that does it and a reliable transmission of data to the ground.
>
That is the bit that the proponents of constant tension winch launching
seem to gloss over. How do you measure tension in a long and thrashing
cable that is being wound into a winch at up to 70 knots as the glider
lifts off? There are gadgets called running line tensiometers that are
used in underground cable laying, but they don't work at the sort of
speeds required.

The other approach is to mount a load cell at the glider end and transmit
the data back to the winch in some way, such as a radio link.

Even if you can directly measure tension in the cable, you have to bear in
mind that the glider has to pull against that tension and that changes in
its pitch angle due to pilot inputs or gusts will temporarily increase or
reduce the tension. You would therefore have to damp the system or it
would tend to hunt. I know as a glider pilot and winch driver myself, that
the less you can change the pitch angle of the glider and the throttle
setting of the winch, the steadier the launch becomes. If the pilot is
trying to control the airspeed with the stick at the same time that the
winch is trying to sense and maintain a constant tension, there is a risk
that they will end up chasing each other, especially when separated by a
long, sagging (even Dyneema sags slightly) and slightly elastic cable.

In practice the Skylaunch approach of limiting the power setting as
appropriate to the glider type, headwind component and weak link strength
seems to work well. If the pilot pulls back harder, or the glider runs
into a thermal, it slows the winch engine down by just the right amount.
Easing forward or hitting sink allows the engine to speed up. Since we
replaced Tost winches with Skylaunches, broken weak links have almost
become a thing of the past and the vast majority of the launches are
correctly speeded given correct pilot inputs. The pilot can control the
airspeed by changing the pitch angle.

Derek Copeland

[tommytoyz[_2_]]

People trying to design tension controlled winches are re-inventing
the wheel. Conventional winches already do that. IF the power setting
is retained constant in conventional winches with a torque converter,
the tension will be constant excluding the inertia factor. Every winch
will have inertia and delay and none will be able to respond
instantaneously to changes in wire load.

A tension meter can be installed in any type of winch, electric,
hydraulic or conventional. There is no difference between the
different types there and power can be controlled by one if desired.
The issue is, does it make sense? Is the approximation calculated by
the British design good enough? Or do we need a real time tension
control winch? Would the inertia i the system even make this possible
or desirable?

I would say that setting the desired tension according to type and
conditions by approximation, ala Skylaunch, and not worrying about the
fluctuations is plenty good enough. The main reason is because
designing a winch to be truly controlled in real time by the actual
and current tension, micro second by microsecond, is probably very
expensive, unproven and would not solve the inertia delay issue of the
winch. Trying to chase the gusts so to speak - how would that work? A
conventional winch type already lets the drum slow down and/or pulls
the engine revs down if the cable tension increases due to a gust or
thermal - thus reducing the tension - this is already a mechanically
built in constant torque effect.

This is by no means perfect, but certainly good enough to give mostly
smooth launches. In gusty conditions, there is no winch in the world,
not even on paper, that can react fast enough to dampen away the
oscillations in cable tension and airspeed, due to the time delay in
reacting to the changes in cable tension.

We just need to figure out how to make a cheap reliable winch and find
places to use them at. At $10-$15 a launch, a glider club or operator
would quickly make a nice income, like European clubs do. The real
cost of a winch launch is something like $3-5 per launch including
maintenance, reserves and replacements. 30 launches a week x $10
profit = $1,200 extra a month. That's one very nice glider upgrade
every 5 years. This is one of the main reasons why European clubs have
such nice equipment.
Tom

[Marc Ramsey[_3_]]

At 04:19 15 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
>We just need to figure out how to make a cheap reliable winch and find
>places to use them at. At $10-$15 a launch, a glider club or operator
>would quickly make a nice income, like European clubs do. The real
>cost of a winch launch is something like $3-5 per launch including
>maintenance, reserves and replacements. 30 launches a week x $10
>profit = $1,200 extra a month. That's one very nice glider upgrade
>every 5 years. This is one of the main reasons why European clubs have
>such nice equipment.

There are winches already in operation in the US, there are groups who
want to operate them, and there are groups trying to design and
manufacture them. I think we need all of the above.

I'm part of a wanna-be operating group, with limited funds. That pretty
much means either finding a rebuildable Gehrlein, importing an inexpensive
used winch from Europe, or homebrewing a new winch (based on the UK spec).
I prefer the latter, as I think there is still plenty of room for
optimization, both in fabrication and operation. While I respect those
who are trying to push the envelope with advance power systems and launch
automation, a simple single drum winch based on automotive components will
be good enough for our local group get started.

If you aren't a member of the Yahoo Winch Design group, please consider
joining. While we have our share of spats, there is progress being made
towards coming up with component designs for a cheap reliable
non-automated winch...

Marc

[Bruce]

Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 22:34 14 July 2009, Gary Emerson wrote:
>> Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????
>>
>> Are you making them at the weak link??
>>
>> Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?
>>
>> I'd really like to know...
>
>
> That is the question that is puzzling me too. The tension sensed by the
> winch will, and should be constantly changing during the launch, measuring
> that would be, how can I put it, useless.
> The tension at the glider release hook will be relatively constant but
> measuring that introduces the problem of the addional weight of the device
> that does it and a reliable transmission of data to the ground.

Which is why I suggested we think about metrics. If there were not big
changes in tension at the Winch end you would have a REAL problem. Go
check it - on our 2km run the glider has not moved before the winch is
1-1.5s into power up - until then there is a lot of tension going into
the cable at the winch and zero happening at the glider end.

We have had a ham fisted learner winch driver snap the cable neatly
(1880KN breaking strain cable) at the drum without even moving the chute
at the launch point.

So - The place it has to be reasonably gentle (smooth curve) is at the
glider hook.

Now we get into a whole new debate about the relative advantage of
UHMDPE (Spectra / Dyneema etc.) and steel cable.

Steel has much more elasticity and inertia to absorb those transient
loads. The spring steel wire acts like a spring storing energy and
smoothing loads. Inconveniently this means that when it breaks under
tension you get a backlash that can result in big overwinds and injuries.

The plastic rope is - counter-intutively given the name, far less
elastic and very light. Result is that winches so equipped may need to
have smoother delivery. And (I am not a good enough engineer here) it is
possible that the tension at the winch on these is similar to that
experienced by the aircraft hook. Would depend on hysteresis and all
sorts of other things that are probably best measured rather than
calculated / guessed.

Any one with facts?

[tommytoyz[_2_]]

"That pretty much means either finding a rebuildable Gehrlein,
importing an inexpensive used winch from Europe, or homebrewing a new
winch (based on the UK spec). I prefer the latter, as I think there is
still plenty of room for optimization, both in fabrication and
operation. While I respect those who are trying to push the envelope
with advance power systems and launch automation, a simple single drum
winch based on automotive components will be good enough for our local
group get started. "

I agree, however, I suggest a retrieve winch set up if you guys are
going for a single drum as otherwise, launch rate will be too slow.
Last year I flew from a 6 drum winch and it was aircraft carrier
style. From reading, I gather that with a single drum winch with a
retrieve winch set up can achieve a rate of 20 launches an hour. How
many tow planes would it take to achieve 20 launches/hour to 2,000
feet per launch? My guess is two tow plane. With only 1 tow plane that
many launches would take 2 hours - much more if they stray far from
the airport. The economics of winching are staggering compared to
aerotows - and above all - much more fun. This includes hunting for
that first lift at low altitude AGL. Even with multiple relights, it's
still cheaper and more fun.
Tom

[Del C[_2_]]

Generally speaking, the only way to break a weak link or a cable at the
start of a winch launch is to open the throttle wide before all of the
slack has been taken out of the cable, so that you get a sudden snatch.

I have launched on both stranded steel and UHMWPE cable on a conventional
Tost winch with a changing automatic gearbox, and couldn't honestly feel
any real difference, except that you don't get any jolts from cleated
repairs going through the rollers with the synthetic cable. These
generally occured near the top of the launch, where we were most likely to
break cables with the Tosts, and are more down to the way we repair broken
steel cables, rather than the cables themselves.

I personally much prefer synthetic cables, because they give smoother and
higher launches, but the club management said no, due to the much higher
cost of the stuff!

Dyneema is definitely safer in that it has less tendency to spring back
after a break and no sharp ends to cut anybody who is unlucky or stupid
enough to stand in the way. My club has had a couple of minor injuries
that way.

Derek Copeland


At 06:55 15 July 2009, Bruce wrote:
>Which is why I suggested we think about metrics. If there were not big
>changes in tension at the Winch end you would have a REAL problem. Go
>check it - on our 2km run the glider has not moved before the winch is
>1-1.5s into power up - until then there is a lot of tension going into
>the cable at the winch and zero happening at the glider end.
>
>We have had a ham fisted learner winch driver snap the cable neatly
>(1880KN breaking strain cable) at the drum without even moving the chute

>at the launch point.
>
>So - The place it has to be reasonably gentle (smooth curve) is at the
>glider hook.
>
>Now we get into a whole new debate about the relative advantage of
>UHMDPE (Spectra / Dyneema etc.) and steel cable.
>
>Steel has much more elasticity and inertia to absorb those transient
>loads. The spring steel wire acts like a spring storing energy and
>smoothing loads. Inconveniently this means that when it breaks under
>tension you get a backlash that can result in big overwinds and
injuries.
>
>The plastic rope is - counter-intutively given the name, far less
>elastic and very light. Result is that winches so equipped may need to
>have smoother delivery. And (I am not a good enough engineer here) it is

>possible that the tension at the winch on these is similar to that
>experienced by the aircraft hook. Would depend on hysteresis and all
>sorts of other things that are probably best measured rather than
>calculated / guessed.
>
>Any one with facts?
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:19:50 -0700 (PDT), tommytoyz
> wrote:


> The real
>cost of a winch launch is something like $3-5 per launch including
>maintenance, reserves and replacements. 30 launches a week x $10
>profit = $1,200 extra a month. That's one very nice glider upgrade
>every 5 years. This is one of the main reasons why European clubs have
>such nice equipment.


Unfortunately this is not the reason...

There might be a few clubs in Europe that charge the prices you
mentioned, but all the clubs I know charge between 2 and 5 Euro,
sufficient only to cover the costs.

Cheers
Andreas

[Chris Reed[_2_]]

I think all (certainly almost all) UK clubs charge the equivalent of
USD10 or more. Winch launching makes a surplus, aerotowing tends to run
at a deficit, at the smaller clubs at least.

Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:19:50 -0700 (PDT), tommytoyz
> > wrote:
>
>
>> The real
>> cost of a winch launch is something like $3-5 per launch including
>> maintenance, reserves and replacements. 30 launches a week x $10
>> profit = $1,200 extra a month. That's one very nice glider upgrade
>> every 5 years. This is one of the main reasons why European clubs have
>> such nice equipment.
>
>
> Unfortunately this is not the reason...
>
> There might be a few clubs in Europe that charge the prices you
> mentioned, but all the clubs I know charge between 2 and 5 Euro,
> sufficient only to cover the costs.
>
> Cheers
> Andreas

[tommytoyz[_2_]]

Andreas,
At my old club in Germany there were several prices depending if you
were a youth, club member in club aircraft, club member with your
private aircraft or non club member with your private aircraft. The
cheapest rates are as you mentioned. It also makes a big difference
that the German clubs have way more launches than 30 a week. It's more
like 150 a week or more. So the spread can be less.

Of course there are other criteria that the government supports these
clubs and some members to a small degree and they also charge by the
hour for their aircraft - though a small fee - but a fee none the
less. Their set up is just totally different, but my point is that
you can make good money as a club here in the USA with a winch where
you really can't with a tow plane. The tow plane is just very
expensive if operated by the club and if using an FBO, no money comes
back to the club.

All this changes, with a club owned winch and even charging the
astronomical fee (for a winch launch) of $15 per launch, it's a good
money maker which can be put to good use in a non profit 501 (c)(3)
club to buy aircraft, equipment, hangars, etc.....Even at $10 a launch
it's a good money maker. Perhaps the launch fees can be charged as in
the German clubs, depending on club status and aircraft. This would
encourage club membership as well as it's cheaper to launch as a club
member.

[Z Goudie[_2_]]

At 08:05 15 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
Even with multiple relights, it's
>still cheaper and more fun.
>Tom

Not if you finish up at the back of a queue of 20 gliders as the sea
breeze blows through and the launch point has to be moved to the other end
of the runway....

[bildan]

On Jul 15, 12:55*am, Bruce > wrote:
> Don Johnstone wrote:
> > At 22:34 14 July 2009, Gary Emerson wrote:
> >> Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????
>
> >> Are you making them at the weak link??
>
> >> Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?
>
> >> I'd really like to know...
>
> > That is the question that is puzzling me too. The tension sensed by the
> > winch will, and should be constantly changing during the launch, measuring
> > that would be, how can I put it, useless.
> > The tension at the glider release hook will be relatively constant but
> > measuring that introduces the problem of the addional weight of the device
> > that does it and a reliable transmission of data to the ground.
>
> Which is why I suggested we think about metrics. If there were not big
> changes in tension at the Winch end you would have a REAL problem. Go
> check it - on our 2km run the glider has not moved before the winch is
> 1-1.5s into power up - until then there is a lot of tension going into
> the cable at the winch and zero happening at the glider end.
>
> We have had a ham fisted learner winch driver snap the cable neatly
> (1880KN breaking strain cable) at the drum without even moving the chute
> at the launch point.
>
> So - The place it has to be reasonably gentle (smooth curve) is at the
> glider hook.
>
> Now we get into a whole new debate about the relative advantage of
> UHMDPE (Spectra / Dyneema etc.) and steel cable.
>
> Steel has much more elasticity and inertia to absorb those transient
> loads. The spring steel wire acts like a spring storing energy and
> smoothing loads. Inconveniently this means that when it breaks under
> tension you get a backlash that can result in big overwinds and injuries.
>
> The plastic rope is - counter-intutively given the name, far less
> elastic and very light. Result is that winches so equipped may need to
> have smoother delivery. And (I am not a good enough engineer here) it is
> possible that the tension at the winch on these is similar to that
> experienced by the aircraft hook. Would depend on hysteresis and all
> sorts of other things that are probably best measured rather than
> calculated / guessed.
>
> Any one with facts?

As you point out, the mfg, spec's call for about 1.5% elongation at
failure for UHMWPE (Spectra/Dyneema) That is much stiffer than
steel. And yes, any roughness or variability in winch power output
does get passed to the glider. That said, rope launches seem much
smoother than with steel cable.

A misconception seems to be that a tension controlled winch goes
instantly from 0 to 100% tension at the beginning of the takeoff
roll. In fact, tension ramps up smoothly and only becomes constant
during the main climb. That's why it's called a "tension controlled
winch" rather than a constant tension winch.

The steady tension make it far easier for the pilot to maintain good
airspeed control. There is much less effect from thermals and gusts.
It's a quieter, smoother easier launch. Because the "area under the
curve" is greater with constant tension in the main climb, more net
energy gets transferred to the glider than in the case of varying
tension so launches are higher with no increase in maximum climb
angle.

Tension through the ground roll and rotation phase follows essentially
the same profile as with an excellent conventional winch launch.
There are limits set to preclude too rapid acceleration and the
tension cannot reach the weak link or rope breaking levels. The
automation make one launch pretty much like the next with little
variation due to the winch operator.

By the way, tension control is nothing new. I recall an article in
Sailplane and Gliding from the 1960's on the subject. Soaring
Magazine had an article on an auto tow system using a tensiometer made
from a hydraulic master cylinder and a pressure gauge from about the
same time. Many of today's hang glider winches and auto tow systems
use tension control.

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 23:52 15 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>A misconception seems to be that a tension controlled winch goes
>instantly from 0 to 100% tension at the beginning of the takeoff
>roll. In fact, tension ramps up smoothly and only becomes constant
>during the main climb. That's why it's called a "tension controlled
>winch" rather than a constant tension winch.
>
>The steady tension make it far easier for the pilot to maintain good
>airspeed control. There is much less effect from thermals and gusts.
>It's a quieter, smoother easier launch. Because the "area under the
>curve" is greater with constant tension in the main climb, more net
>energy gets transferred to the glider than in the case of varying
>tension so launches are higher with no increase in maximum climb
>angle.

How can you possibly know that without measuring the "tension" at the
release hook. You certainly cannot measure the increased tension caused by
a thermal at the winch as the inertia of the steel cable is the main cause
of the increase in tension experienced at the release hook. This
"tension spike" cannot be measured at the winch. From a point at which
the cable is at 45 degrees to the ground the "tension" imparted to the
glider, through the cable release, is increasingly provided by the weight
of the cable, and therefore measuring tension at the winch has no meaning
whatsoever, in fact the tension there should be almost 0.
>
>Tension through the ground roll and rotation phase follows essentially
>the same profile as with an excellent conventional winch launch.
>There are limits set to preclude too rapid acceleration and the
>tension cannot reach the weak link or rope breaking levels. The
>automation make one launch pretty much like the next with little
>variation due to the winch operator.

You may get good results by serendipidy but you certainly won't get them
through control of tension. What you are measuring at the winch bears
absolutely no direct relationship to what is experienced at the glider
end, and that is what counts.
With a good qualified winch driver you get consistent launches, sounds to
me you are worrying far too much about not being able to train your winch
drivers properly, and given some of the theories expounded that is perhaps
understandable.
What you are trying to achieve in a complicated way we solve by using
robust equipment and trained winch drivers who do understand what they are
doing.
>
>By the way, tension control is nothing new. I recall an article in
>Sailplane and Gliding from the 1960's on the subject. Soaring
>Magazine had an article on an auto tow system using a tensiometer made
>from a hydraulic master cylinder and a pressure gauge from about the
>same time. Many of today's hang glider winches and auto tow systems
>use tension control.
>

[bildan]

On Jul 15, 7:00*pm, Don Johnstone > wrote:
> At 23:52 15 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
> >A misconception seems to be that a tension controlled winch goes
> >instantly *from 0 to 100% tension at the beginning of the takeoff
> >roll. *In fact, tension ramps up smoothly and only becomes constant
> >during the main climb. *That's why it's called a "tension controlled
> >winch" rather than a constant tension winch.
>
> >The steady tension make it far easier for the pilot to maintain good
> >airspeed control. *There is much less effect from thermals and gusts.
> >It's a quieter, smoother easier launch. *Because the "area under the
> >curve" is greater with constant tension in the main climb, more net
> >energy gets transferred to the glider than in the case of varying
> >tension so launches are higher with no increase in maximum climb
> >angle.
>
> How can you possibly know that without measuring the "tension" at the
> release hook. You certainly cannot measure the increased tension caused by
> a thermal at the winch as the inertia of the steel cable is the main cause
> of the increase in tension experienced at the release hook. *This
> "tension spike" cannot be measured at the winch. From a point at which
> the cable is at 45 degrees to the ground the "tension" imparted to the
> glider, through the cable release, is increasingly provided by the weight
> of the cable, and therefore measuring tension at the winch has no meaning
> whatsoever, in fact the tension there should be almost 0.

First, we're not using steel cable, we're using UHMWPE (Specra/
Dyneema). Lightweight "plastic" rope only weighs about 1 pound per
hundred feet and has very little inertial at all. Tension measured at
the winch is within a percent or so of that at the glider and has
essentially no effect on tension measurement.


> >Tension through the ground roll and rotation phase follows essentially
> >the same profile as with an excellent conventional winch launch.
> >There are limits set to preclude too rapid acceleration and the
> >tension cannot reach the weak link or rope breaking levels. *The
> >automation make one launch pretty much like the next with little
> >variation due to the winch operator.
>
> You may get good results by serendipidy but you certainly won't get them
> through control of tension.

Gee, I must be dreaming But we seem to be getting exactly what I'm
telling you we're getting - with tension control. This isn't theory,
we're actually doing it. There must be some sort of magic effect no
one knows about. Or maybe the laws of physics are different over here.

[bildan]

On Jul 14, 4:34*pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????
>
> Are you making them at the weak link??
>
> Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?
>
> I'd really like to know...

Most people are using a "logger" that works like a GPS logger except
that it measures tension with a load cell and records the data on
flash memory card at a few samples per second for later readout on a
PC. With it's protective padding, It's about the size of a toy
football or a liter soft drink bottle and weighs less than a pound.
It's placed in the winch line near the parachute. I'm not an EE, but
I'm told they are easy to make using off the shelf components - any
"sparky" can build one. It's nice since you can use it on any winch.

You can also measure it at the winch if it's hydraulic or electric or
you use a Running Line Tensiometer (RLT).

A large drum has relatively little rope build-up during a launch so
the effective radius can be estimated pretty closely as a function of
time. With a hydraulic winch, the torque at the drum is directly
related to the oil pressure at the hydraulic motor. With those data,
the rope tension can be calculated to more than good enough accuracy.
It's the same with an electric winch except you measure electrical
values.

No matter how you get it, a tension trace is very useful in diagnosing
problems with a winch - or a winch driver. I'd want to make my own
trace on any winch before I bought it.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 15, 12:45*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> Andreas,
> At my old club in Germany there were several prices depending if you
> were a youth, club member in club aircraft, club member with your
> private aircraft or non club member with your private aircraft. The
> cheapest rates are as you mentioned. It also makes a big difference
> that the German clubs have way more launches than 30 a week. It's more
> like 150 a week or more. So the spread can be less.
>
> Of course there are other criteria that the government supports these
> clubs and some members to a small degree and they also charge by the
> hour for their aircraft - though a small fee - but a fee none the
> less. Their set up is just totally different, but *my point is that
> you can make good money as a club here in the USA with a winch where
> you really can't with a tow plane. The tow plane is just very
> expensive if operated by the club and if using an FBO, no money comes
> back to the club.
>
> All this changes, with a club owned winch and even charging the
> astronomical fee (for a winch launch) of $15 per launch, it's a good
> money maker which can be put to good use in a non profit 501 (c)(3)
> club to buy aircraft, equipment, hangars, etc.....Even at $10 a launch
> it's a good money maker. Perhaps the launch fees can be charged as in
> the German clubs, depending on club status and aircraft. This would
> encourage club membership as well as it's cheaper to launch as a club
> member.

You mention gov't support in Germany, but in effect that's what a 501c
(3) tax determination provides in the US. That is, the non-profit tax
determination is a means to keep the size of government at bay, yet
support your voluntary efforts for something that might not exist
locally apart from that volunteerism. The benefit comes from the
donors, and the donors benefit also and it reduces taxes.

A US club could do 150 per week, but you have to work at recruiting to
the sport and plan for the results of your efforts.

Club's are generally good at keeping logs of glider time, so why not
charge for air time. In the UK, they charged by the minute at the
clubs I joined. In the RAF clubs, the first ten minutes were free and
the meter was running (very modestly) after that. The book keeping is
hardly difficult these days.

Frank Whiteley

[Del C[_2_]]

Bill,

Just out of interest, who are these 'most people' and do they have a
design for a tension logger that could published? I know of only one club
in the UK who have tried using one, which was the source of your infamous
'ugly tension spikes' claim.

I have looked at these logs and they tend to show momentary troughs rather
than spikes, and the weak link strengths were generally not exceeded.
Without knowing what the meteorological conditions where at the time, or
how smooth the winch driver and the glider pilot where in their actions,
it is difficult to draw any conclusion from them. I haven't yet seen a
trace from your 'US superwinches', so can you prove they would do any
better in the same circumstances and with the tension logger mounted in
the same place?

Derek Copeland

At 03:50 16 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 14, 4:34=A0pm, Gary Emerson wrote:
>> Just exacly where are you making these tensions measurements????
>>
>> Are you making them at the weak link??
>>
>> Are you making these measurements at the winch end of things?
>>
>> I'd really like to know...
>
>Most people are using a "logger" that works like a GPS logger except
>that it measures tension with a load cell and records the data on
>flash memory card at a few samples per second for later readout on a
>PC. With it's protective padding, It's about the size of a toy
>football or a liter soft drink bottle and weighs less than a pound.
>It's placed in the winch line near the parachute. I'm not an EE, but
>I'm told they are easy to make using off the shelf components - any
>"sparky" can build one. It's nice since you can use it on any winch.
>
>You can also measure it at the winch if it's hydraulic or electric or
>you use a Running Line Tensiometer (RLT).
>
>A large drum has relatively little rope build-up during a launch so
>the effective radius can be estimated pretty closely as a function of
>time. With a hydraulic winch, the torque at the drum is directly
>related to the oil pressure at the hydraulic motor. With those data,
>the rope tension can be calculated to more than good enough accuracy.
>It's the same with an electric winch except you measure electrical
>values.
>
>No matter how you get it, a tension trace is very useful in diagnosing
>problems with a winch - or a winch driver. I'd want to make my own
>trace on any winch before I bought it.
>

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic gearbox
giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch launch, see if
you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch winch in
action at Lasham?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riqhzcXZqzg

Derek Copeland

At 19:34 11 July 2009, johngalloway wrote:
>On 11 July, 14:36, bildan wrote:
>>
>> This week we were getting as high as 1900' from 3900 feet of rope at
>> 9000 feet density altitude with little wind with the Hydrowinch.
=A0With
>> no gear shifting at all, the Hydrowinch is MUCH smoother than any
>> winch with an automatic transmission.
>>
>> Skylaunches are just like old Gerhleins with new paint - they use
>> exactly the same components. =A0They are not particularly well
>> controlled since they use road vehicle torque converters and automatic
>> transmissions free to shift gears when they please. =A0The old junk
>> Gerhleins around most US clubs are probably the only winches in the
>> world worse than a Skylaunch - but they are a LOT cheaper.
>>
>> BTW, notice how Derek has to reply to himself to get any conversation
>> at all?
>
>This account of the performance of the Skylaunch winch is, as Bill has
>repeatedly been told previously elsewhere by pilots who actually
>operate or launch on Skylaunch winches, utterly false and his
>obsessive denigration of it is disgraceful. Our club had a Skylaunch
>winch for evaluation for six days a couple of weeks ago. The
>smoothness of launch is faultless and a vast improvement over Supacat
>and Tost winches
>
>The fact that the automatic transmission can shift gears "when they
>please" is a complete non issue. The gear changes up at the start of
>the launch occur within the first 2-3 seconds (timed by me) and before
>the glider has rotated into the climb. The gear changes are
>completely imperceptible in the glider. None of numerous pilots on
>the ground near the winch during launches note the upwards gear
>changes without being prompted to listen out for them - an even then
>there was some debate about whether they could be detected.
>Occasionally the autobox changes down to second during the mid launch
>when under load but at no time was any of the many pilots launched
>aware of any gear change.
>
>The operational mechanisms of the Skylaunch are not designed to
>"control" the launch so it is not surprising that it does not do so.
>What it does have is an interconnected maximum throttle position guide
>that takes into account the type of the glider and the headwind
>component. This means that each glider is effectively provided with a
>winch with an appropriately powered engine for itself and the wind
>conditions in the mid launch. The winch driver still has to control
>the start and end of the launch - by advancing the throttle control at
>an appropriate rate at the start (about 3 seconds IMHO) and backing
>off the power at the top. The predictable response of the good old GM
>V8 to load means that the plot can pull into a steep climb without
>fear of overspeeding.
>
>The new US winches may turn out to be brilliant but Bill's emotional
>bias invalidates him as an objective reporter in my opinion.
>
>John Galloway
>

[bildan]

On Jul 19, 4:30*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic gearbox
> giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch launch, see if
> you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch winch in
> action at Lasham?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riqhzcXZqzg
>
> Derek Copeland

Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
transmission. This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
operator opening the throttle very gingerly.

[johngalloway[_2_]]

On 19 July, 16:54, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 19, 4:30*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> > Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic gearbox
> > giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch launch, see if
> > you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch winch in
> > action at Lasham?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riqhzcXZqzg
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
> transmission. *This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
> operator opening the throttle very gingerly.

Bill,

You seem to have difficulty coping with the fact that whatever
preconceived idea comes into you mind is not necessarily a fact.

The fact is that

[johngalloway[_2_]]

On 19 July, 16:54, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 19, 4:30*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> > Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic gearbox
> > giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch launch, see if
> > you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch winch in
> > action at Lasham?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riqhzcXZqzg
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
> transmission. *This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
> operator opening the throttle very gingerly.

Bill,

You are implying that if the throttle of a Skylaunch winch is advanced
rapidly then the autobox changes will become obvious or a problem or
whatever. This is simply not the case.

At various times I have test driven a Skylaunch, been inside and
outside the winch looking out for gear changes (because this was
something I was initially wondering about too), and been launched. I
have seen the throttle advanced rapidly to maximum or advanced slowly
over 3 seconds and it makes no difference to appreciation of
gearchanges. As a personal example I had a launch recently in which
the driver (watched by a friend in the cab) for some reason pushed the
throttle rapidly through the throttle stop guide for my type and gave
me a very overpowered initial acceleration. There was absolutely no
detectable gear change effect during the initial (very rapid)
acceleration.

John Galloway

[Del C[_2_]]

On a very still day the gliders up to DG1000Ts were being accelerated by
the Skylaunch winch from zero to lift off speed (50-60mph) in about 3
seconds, which is little slower than Bill claims for his US superwinch.
Any faster than this can be dangerous for some types of glider, because it
can cause excessive pitch up rates. Excessive acceleration can also bang
down the tails of those gliders that set on their nose wheels or skids
pretty hard onto the ground, with a risk of structural damage!

Derek Copeland

At 18:31 19 July 2009, johngalloway wrote:
>On 19 July, 16:54, bildan wrote:
>> On Jul 19, 4:30=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:
>
>> > Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic
>gearbo=
>x
>> > giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch launch,
>see=
> if
>> > you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch winch
in
>> > action at Lasham?
>>
>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DriqhzcXZqzg
>>
>> > Derek Copeland
>>
>> Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
>> transmission. =A0This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
>> operator opening the throttle very gingerly.
>
>Bill,
>
>You seem to have difficulty coping with the fact that whatever
>preconceived idea comes into you mind is not necessarily a fact.
>
>The fact is that
>

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 19:18 19 July 2009, johngalloway wrote:
>On 19 July, 16:54, bildan wrote:

>> Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
>> transmission. =A0This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
>> operator opening the throttle very gingerly.
>
>Bill,

I am a little mystified by this, can you tell us Bill exactly how many
Skylaunch winches you have seen, which particular types, and how many
launches you have witnessed being made by a Skylaunch winch?

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 20:00 19 July 2009, Del C wrote:
>On a very still day the gliders up to DG1000Ts were being accelerated by
>the Skylaunch winch from zero to lift off speed (50-60mph) in about 3
>seconds, which is little slower than Bill claims for his US superwinch.
>Any faster than this can be dangerous for some types of glider, because
it
>can cause excessive pitch up rates. Excessive acceleration can also bang
>down the tails of those gliders that set on their nose wheels or skids
>pretty hard onto the ground, with a risk of structural damage!
>
>Derek Copeland
>
Not if you hold the tail down to prevent that happening. In theory the
faster the acceleration to flying speed the safer the launch, having
effective controls makes all the difference. Being towed down the field on
the ground accelerating slowly is a recipe for disaster.

[Del C[_2_]]

At 21:00 19 July 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 20:00 19 July 2009, Del C wrote:
>>On a very still day the gliders up to DG1000Ts were being accelerated
by
>>the Skylaunch winch from zero to lift off speed (50-60mph) in about 3
>>seconds, which is little slower than Bill claims for his US superwinch.
>>Any faster than this can be dangerous for some types of glider, because
>it
>>can cause excessive pitch up rates. Excessive acceleration can also
bang
>>down the tails of those gliders that set on their nose wheels or skids
>>pretty hard onto the ground, with a risk of structural damage!
>>
>>Derek Copeland
>>
>Not if you hold the tail down to prevent that happening. In theory the
>faster the acceleration to flying speed the safer the launch, having
>effective controls makes all the difference. Being towed down the field
on
>the ground accelerating slowly is a recipe for disaster.
>
Whilst I agree with Don that the ground run acceleration should be
reasonably brisk to give quick aileron control, if it is too rapid some
types of gliders pitch up dangerously quickly, due to the rotational
couple between the cable pull line to the belly hook and the centre of
gravity. This risks a flick spin on rotation, or making recovery from a
low launch failure almost impossible.

This doesn't affect Grob G103s, which I believe is the type Don instructs
in, due to its weight (it's not nicknamed the concrete swan for nothing),
low set wings and hence low centre of gravity, but it does affect lighter
high winged gliders such as the K6 or K8.

We do hold the tail down for some of the more delicate vintage types, but
we often don't have enough helpers at the launch point to do this
additional task on a routine basis. OK if you have lots of ATC Cadets
hanging around with nothing much else to do!

Derek Copeland

[bildan]

On Jul 19, 1:18*pm, johngalloway > wrote:
> On 19 July, 16:54, bildan > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 19, 4:30*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>
> > > Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic gearbox
> > > giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch launch, see if
> > > you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch winch in
> > > action at Lasham?
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riqhzcXZqzg
>
> > > Derek Copeland
>
> > Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
> > transmission. *This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
> > operator opening the throttle very gingerly.
>
> Bill,
>
> You are implying that if the throttle of a Skylaunch winch is advanced
> rapidly then the autobox changes will become obvious or a problem or
> whatever. *This is simply not the case.
>
> At various times I have test driven a Skylaunch, been inside and
> outside the winch looking out for gear changes (because this was
> something I was initially wondering about too), and been launched. *I
> have seen the throttle advanced rapidly to maximum or advanced slowly
> over 3 seconds and it makes no difference to appreciation of
> gearchanges. *As a personal example I had a launch recently in which
> the driver (watched by a friend in the cab) for some reason pushed the
> throttle rapidly through the throttle stop guide for my type and gave
> me a very overpowered initial acceleration. *There was absolutely no
> detectable gear change effect during the initial (very rapid)
> acceleration.
>
> John Galloway

I am very familiar with many old Gerhlein winches that use exactly the
same engine and transmission as the Skylaunch - there is essentially
no difference. Unfortunately, I'm also VERY familiar with the General
Motors TH400 transmission used in the Skylaunch as a consequence of
the old Gerhleins.

Anyone can confirm everything I write below by calling a transmission
shop - or reading a shop technical manual. In my circle it's
considered common knowledge but since this is for the Brits, it's a
long post.

To get some data I borrowed a neighbor's GM Surburban with the view to
videotaping a portable repair shop electronic vehicle scanner display
which shows the shifts. The Surburban uses the same engine and
transmission as the Skylaunch. Unfortunately, the camera couldn't
read the LCD display with the lighting available. I plan to try again
tomorrow with different lighting. I'll post the video on YouTube.

To insure constant throttle, I monitored the throttle position sensor
with the scanner. At 24% throttle, the transmission made the 1-2 &
2-3 up-shifts at 11 and 23 MPH which is normal. On level ground and
with a lightly loaded vehicle, these shifts are VERY smooth and could
easily have been missed without the scanner. Using low power can mask
shifts. Not hearing or feeling them doesn't mean they don't happen or
they don't matter - please continue reading.

The old hydraulic transmissions like the TH400 don't have any "smarts"
other than what the GM engineers designed into them. They just do
what they do. Non-electronic automatic transmissions from all
manufacturers work(ed) essentially the same. Which is not to say they
worked well since we now have electronically controlled transmissions
which work much better.

I selected a stretch of high mountain road (9000 feet elev) with a
level section leading to a moderate hill with an equal descent on the
other side to simulate a glider hitting first a thermal and then sink
during a winch launch.

Holding fixed throttle (not speed), the transmission unlocked the
torque converter clutch just as the vehicle encountered the uphill
grade seen as a jump from 1700 RPM to 2000 RPM. This is effectively a
23% downshift since the torque converter is now slipping and
multiplying torque.

As the vehicle continued up the hill, the transmission shifted out of
overdrive into 3rd gear shown by a 1300 RPM increase in RPM. Finally,
near the top of the hill, the transmission downshifted to 2nd and a
further 1800 RPM increase. The 3-2 down shift is what most people
call "passing gear".

As the vehicle topped the hill and started down, the transmission
quickly up-shifted reversing its actions on the uphill grade.

The transmission was doing exactly what it was designed to do which is
to assist the driver in maintaining speed on a hilly road by changing
gear ratios to keep engine RPM in the power band. Each downshift
increases torque multipication which, in a winch, would be seen as
increasing rope tension. Each up-shift decreases torque multipication
which, in a winch, would be seen as decreasing rope tension - assuming
a fixed throttle.

In a winch, the transmission would see the increasing rope tension
caused by a glider encountering a thermal as a hill and start
downshifting increasing the tension further. This would INCREASE rope
tension in thermals. If the glider hit sink the slackening tension
would be seen as a downhill grade and it would up-shift and DECREASE
rope tension - exactly the opposite of what is needed for a smooth,
safe launch which is to hold tension constant.

That's why I think it is very poor engineering practice to use an
automobile transmission in a glider winch. It's designed to work in
an entirely different universe. The ONLY credible reason to insist on
using one in a glider winch is their low cost and availability. The
Hydrowinch people in Colorado Springs were able to build a
computerized diesel/hydrostatic tension controlled winch for LESS than
the selling price of a Skylaunch.

If people still insist on using automatic transmissions, there are two
or three modifications that can make them less bad. The first is a
"Manual Valve Body" which allows the operator to choose a gear and the
transmission will stay there regardless. This is NOT the same as
putting the gear selector in "2" since the 1-2 up-shift still occurs
in that case. Only the MVB actually prevents automatic shifting.
Unlike getting a heavy Surburban rolling, there is no need for lower
gears when launching a glider so the transmission can be put in
whatever gear is needed for the main part of the launch.

The second modification is to control the torque converter clutch. It
should lock up the torque converter - preventing torque multipication
- just after the throttle advance starts and not unlock until the
throttle is returned to idle.

An MVB opens the door to a third modification which is to replace the
stock gears with extremely close ratio planetary gear sets. These
allow the operator to choose small changes in winch gearing to suit a
range of wind and density altitude conditions.

TH400's can be ordered on-line with all three modifications already
installed for only 3-400 hundred USD more than a stock transmission.
If you're building a winch with an automatic, that would be money well
spent.

If you disagree call a transmission shop - preferably one that deals
with drag racers - and get the facts.

[Bruce]

bildan wrote:
> On Jul 19, 4:30 am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
>> Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic gearbox
>> giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch launch, see if
>> you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch winch in
>> action at Lasham?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riqhzcXZqzg
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>
> Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
> transmission. This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
> operator opening the throttle very gingerly.

It's one of the things that attracts a certain kind of person to
soaring. It's called skill, and developing it as a winch driver is as
rewarding as being on the other end of the string. (though I still
prefer being winched, rather than winching)

The "job well done" feeling after a shift on the winch is one of the
rewards that the whiners, and dumb downers miss completely.

Is it desirable to have a powerful, smooth controllable winch -
Definitely. Is it neccessary for safety and operations to have the
perfect winch? I can't say because we can't even agree on what is
desirable beyond that is should be powerful enough, smooth enough and
controllable enough. And the "enough" part is pretty debatable.

FWIW the universal standard on winches seems to be zero to full power
(for the situation) in 3 to 4 seconds - with the focus on smoothly
increasing power so as to prevent uncontrollable acceleration in the
glider.

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Our Tost winches were originally fitted with Powerglide gearboxes that were
locked in top gear as a Tost modification.

A trial was carried out about 4 years ago by fitting one of them with a
very slightly modified, 3 speed, shifting TH400 gearbox supplied by
Skylaunch, which we found gave no problems at all and had several
advantages, in that it can safely be run backwards (as long as you leave
the engine running to give oil pressure) which we needed for retrieve
winching, better acceleration for the heavier gliders, and less gearbox
oil over-heating. As a result of this trial, both of our Tosts were so
fitted. The overall gearing was such that the upshift gear changes occured
during the ground run and the main part of the launch is done in top gear.
The same applies to our new Skylaunch winches.

In August 2008 our club hired a 'pre-owned' Skylaunch winch and ran that
for an extended trial period. Compared with the Tosts we found it to be
very easy to drive and to give smooth, nicely speeded launches, with non
of the problems suggested by Bill! As a result of this trial the club
commitee decided to buy two of them, and to sell one of the Tosts, which
we have already done. We still have one as a back up, but it hasn't come
out of the MT hangar for months. If a club is looking for a half decent
secondhand winch, perhaps they should make an offer to Lasham? If it was
fitted with the Skylaunch throttle system it would be three-quarters
decent.

In answer to Bill Daniel's other point, you can bang open the throttles
of the above winches, or of our new Skylaunches by over-riding the
throttle dampers, as fast as you want without causing harsh gear changes,
but then you over-accelerate the gliders, and bang the tails down for nose
sitting gliders, such as K13s, Grob G103 and K21s, too hard with a risk of
structural damage. Again that's due to that pesky belly hook to c of g
rotational couple!

Comparing a Gerhlein winch to a Skylaunch is somewhat like comparing a
Ford Model T to their latest models. Similar basic components but
developed over many years.

I believe the Hydrostart winch, on which the Hydrowinch is based would
cost something like 500,000 Euros with all new components, compared with
about 90,000 Euros for an all new Skylaunch 2 in Europe. Shipping costs
and import duties make it more expensive in the States, so it might be
worth making them under license over there. All of the development work
has already been done.

Derek Copeland


At 01:40 20 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 19, 1:18=A0pm, johngalloway wrote:
>> On 19 July, 16:54, bildan wrote:
>>
>> > On Jul 19, 4:30=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:
>>
>> > > Just to emphasize John's point about a properly set up automatic
>gear=
>box
>> > > giving smooth and imperceptible gear changes during a winch
launch,
>s=
>ee if
>> > > you can hear the gearchanges in this video of a new Skylaunch
winch
>i=
>n
>> > > action at Lasham?
>>
>> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DriqhzcXZqzg
>>
>> > > Derek Copeland
>>
>> > Opening the throttle like a little old lady will mask shifts on any
>> > transmission. =A0This obviously depends a great deal on the winch
>> > operator opening the throttle very gingerly.
>>
>> Bill,
>>
>> You are implying that if the throttle of a Skylaunch winch is advanced
>> rapidly then the autobox changes will become obvious or a problem or
>> whatever. =A0This is simply not the case.
>>
>> At various times I have test driven a Skylaunch, been inside and
>> outside the winch looking out for gear changes (because this was
>> something I was initially wondering about too), and been launched.
=A0I
>> have seen the throttle advanced rapidly to maximum or advanced slowly
>> over 3 seconds and it makes no difference to appreciation of
>> gearchanges. =A0As a personal example I had a launch recently in which
>> the driver (watched by a friend in the cab) for some reason pushed the
>> throttle rapidly through the throttle stop guide for my type and gave
>> me a very overpowered initial acceleration. =A0There was absolutely no
>> detectable gear change effect during the initial (very rapid)
>> acceleration.
>>
>> John Galloway
>
>I am very familiar with many old Gerhlein winches that use exactly the
>same engine and transmission as the Skylaunch - there is essentially
>no difference. Unfortunately, I'm also VERY familiar with the General
>Motors TH400 transmission used in the Skylaunch as a consequence of
>the old Gerhleins.
>
>Anyone can confirm everything I write below by calling a transmission
>shop - or reading a shop technical manual. In my circle it's
>considered common knowledge but since this is for the Brits, it's a
>long post.
>
>To get some data I borrowed a neighbor's GM Surburban with the view to
>videotaping a portable repair shop electronic vehicle scanner display
>which shows the shifts. The Surburban uses the same engine and
>transmission as the Skylaunch. Unfortunately, the camera couldn't
>read the LCD display with the lighting available. I plan to try again
>tomorrow with different lighting. I'll post the video on YouTube.
>
>To insure constant throttle, I monitored the throttle position sensor
>with the scanner. At 24% throttle, the transmission made the 1-2 &
>2-3 up-shifts at 11 and 23 MPH which is normal. On level ground and
>with a lightly loaded vehicle, these shifts are VERY smooth and could
>easily have been missed without the scanner. Using low power can mask
>shifts. Not hearing or feeling them doesn't mean they don't happen or
>they don't matter - please continue reading.
>
>The old hydraulic transmissions like the TH400 don't have any
"smarts"
>other than what the GM engineers designed into them. They just do
>what they do. Non-electronic automatic transmissions from all
>manufacturers work(ed) essentially the same. Which is not to say they
>worked well since we now have electronically controlled transmissions
>which work much better.
>
>I selected a stretch of high mountain road (9000 feet elev) with a
>level section leading to a moderate hill with an equal descent on the
>other side to simulate a glider hitting first a thermal and then sink
>during a winch launch.
>
>Holding fixed throttle (not speed), the transmission unlocked the
>torque converter clutch just as the vehicle encountered the uphill
>grade seen as a jump from 1700 RPM to 2000 RPM. This is effectively a
>23% downshift since the torque converter is now slipping and
>multiplying torque.
>
>As the vehicle continued up the hill, the transmission shifted out of
>overdrive into 3rd gear shown by a 1300 RPM increase in RPM. Finally,
>near the top of the hill, the transmission downshifted to 2nd and a
>further 1800 RPM increase. The 3-2 down shift is what most people
>call "passing gear".
>
>As the vehicle topped the hill and started down, the transmission
>quickly up-shifted reversing its actions on the uphill grade.
>
>The transmission was doing exactly what it was designed to do which is
>to assist the driver in maintaining speed on a hilly road by changing
>gear ratios to keep engine RPM in the power band. Each downshift
>increases torque multipication which, in a winch, would be seen as
>increasing rope tension. Each up-shift decreases torque multipication
>which, in a winch, would be seen as decreasing rope tension - assuming
>a fixed throttle.
>
>In a winch, the transmission would see the increasing rope tension
>caused by a glider encountering a thermal as a hill and start
>downshifting increasing the tension further. This would INCREASE rope
>tension in thermals. If the glider hit sink the slackening tension
>would be seen as a downhill grade and it would up-shift and DECREASE
>rope tension - exactly the opposite of what is needed for a smooth,
>safe launch which is to hold tension constant.
>
>That's why I think it is very poor engineering practice to use an
>automobile transmission in a glider winch. It's designed to work in
>an entirely different universe. The ONLY credible reason to insist on
>using one in a glider winch is their low cost and availability. The
>Hydrowinch people in Colorado Springs were able to build a
>computerized diesel/hydrostatic tension controlled winch for LESS than
>the selling price of a Skylaunch.
>
>If people still insist on using automatic transmissions, there are two
>or three modifications that can make them less bad. The first is a
>"Manual Valve Body" which allows the operator to choose a gear and the
>transmission will stay there regardless. This is NOT the same as
>putting the gear selector in "2" since the 1-2 up-shift still occurs
>in that case. Only the MVB actually prevents automatic shifting.
>Unlike getting a heavy Surburban rolling, there is no need for lower
>gears when launching a glider so the transmission can be put in
>whatever gear is needed for the main part of the launch.
>
>The second modification is to control the torque converter clutch. It
>should lock up the torque converter - preventing torque multipication
>- just after the throttle advance starts and not unlock until the
>throttle is returned to idle.
>
>An MVB opens the door to a third modification which is to replace the
>stock gears with extremely close ratio planetary gear sets. These
>allow the operator to choose small changes in winch gearing to suit a
>range of wind and density altitude conditions.
>
>TH400's can be ordered on-line with all three modifications already
>installed for only 3-400 hundred USD more than a stock transmission.
>If you're building a winch with an automatic, that would be money well
>spent.
>
>If you disagree call a transmission shop - preferably one that deals
>with drag racers - and get the facts.
>

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

OK Bill so would you confirm that:

1. You have never seen a skylaunch winch
2. Therefore you have never driven a Skylaunch winch
3. Therefore you have never seen a launch carried out by a Skylaunch
winch
4 In fact the closest you have ever been to a Skylaunch winch is over 5000
miles.
Hardly makes you particularly knowledgeable about Skylaunch winches does
it?

I have no comment to make concerning the operation or construction of any
winch made in the USA, I am sure they are adequate. My only suggestion is
that a "tension controlled" winch is about the craziest idea I have ever
heard, not least because, thankfully, it would never work.

[Del C[_2_]]

Don,

Bill should have seen plenty of videos of Skylaunch winches in action
(I've made quite a few), all of which show nice well controlled launches.
The dodgy lauches are all on Tosts or homebuilds.

Constant Tension winches might just work, as it not too dissimilar in
principle to Constant Torque, which has been used before, but this is
still unproven. My worry about it is that it can be affected by what the
glider pilot does at the other end of a long and slightly elastic cable.

I don't know why Bill has to keep attacking Skylaunch, who are well
regarded in European gliding circles and produce a good solid product.
Maybe he regards them as a threat to his potential US winch building
empire! I should point out to him that most winch manufacturing in Europe
is done as a sideline to other engineering activities by gliding
enthusiasts; this includes Skylaunch.

Derek Copeland

At 10:15 20 July 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>OK Bill so would you confirm that:
>
>1. You have never seen a skylaunch winch
>2. Therefore you have never driven a Skylaunch winch
>3. Therefore you have never seen a launch carried out by a Skylaunch
>winch
>4 In fact the closest you have ever been to a Skylaunch winch is over
5000
>miles.
>Hardly makes you particularly knowledgeable about Skylaunch winches does
>it?
>
>I have no comment to make concerning the operation or construction of
any
>winch made in the USA, I am sure they are adequate. My only suggestion
is
>that a "tension controlled" winch is about the craziest idea I have
ever
>heard, not least because, thankfully, it would never work.
>

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 21:45 19 July 2009, Del C wrote:

>Whilst I agree with Don that the ground run acceleration should be
>reasonably brisk to give quick aileron control, if it is too rapid some
>types of gliders pitch up dangerously quickly, due to the rotational
>couple between the cable pull line to the belly hook and the centre of
>gravity. This risks a flick spin on rotation, or making recovery from a
>low launch failure almost impossible.
>
>This doesn't affect Grob G103s, which I believe is the type Don
instructs
>in, due to its weight (it's not nicknamed the concrete swan for
nothing),
>low set wings and hence low centre of gravity, but it does affect
lighter
>high winged gliders such as the K6 or K8.
>
>We do hold the tail down for some of the more delicate vintage types,
but
>we often don't have enough helpers at the launch point to do this
>additional task on a routine basis. OK if you have lots of ATC Cadets
>hanging around with nothing much else to do!
>

There really is no conflict here, the gliders that are likely to suffer
from to brisk acceleration are generally lighter and high winged. The have
an advantage on two fronts in that there is less inertia to overcome so
they do not need the "extra" power to accelerate and of course being
high winged a wing drop is less likely to result in the wing touching the
ground. They can therefore be launched safely with less initial power.
On the other hand, modern glass gliders tend to be heavier and do need the
extra power to accelerate quickly but once this acceleration phase is over
they actually need less power to move them through the air so the throttle
technique needs to be different and this is where knowing what glider you
are launching is important.
On a Skylaunch I find that with wooden gliders and some lighter glass
gliders the throttle needs to be advanced to the adjustable stop. With
heavy 2 seaters the throttle needs go go through the stop and then return
as soon as the glider is moving. The "extra" power is only needed to
overcome the inertia. Many drivers to not provide enough power quick
enough for heavier gliders, maybe because of the caution needed for
lighter ones and not being taught to recognise the difference. The pilot
needs to play his part and establish a positive rate of climb to prevent
overspeed.
As far as holding the tail down, I would have thought this preferable to
having to accept a slower acceleration with the attendant risk of wing
drop/yaw.
We did not hold down the tail of Grob 103s, we did the Janus.
The concrete swan was actually the Astir Del :-)

[Del C[_2_]]

When launching heavy glass two seaters such as the K21 or DG1000 on a
Skylaunch I just put the power setting in A or A+ depending on type and
advance the throttle to the preset stop as quickly as it will allow me to.
Only if the glider fails to take off within about 4 seconds would I push
the throttle through the spring loaded stop.

You have to be a little bit more gentle with the earlier versions of the
Grob Twin Astir and G103 because they only launch on red weak links. I
think that any type of Grob two-seater has the 'concrete swan' nickname,
even though it was originally applied to the Twin Astir.

For lighter gliders such as the K13 I use a lower power setting and
advance the throttle to the preset stop over a count of 3. This is only to
give a slightly more gentle and progressive acceleration and not to bang
their tails on the ground too hard.

Derek Copeland

At 11:15 20 July 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 21:45 19 July 2009, Del C wrote:
>
>>Whilst I agree with Don that the ground run acceleration should be
>>reasonably brisk to give quick aileron control, if it is too rapid some
>>types of gliders pitch up dangerously quickly, due to the rotational
>>couple between the cable pull line to the belly hook and the centre of
>>gravity. This risks a flick spin on rotation, or making recovery from a
>>low launch failure almost impossible.
>>
>>This doesn't affect Grob G103s, which I believe is the type Don
>instructs
>>in, due to its weight (it's not nicknamed the concrete swan for
>nothing),
>>low set wings and hence low centre of gravity, but it does affect
>lighter
>>high winged gliders such as the K6 or K8.
>>
>>We do hold the tail down for some of the more delicate vintage types,
>but
>>we often don't have enough helpers at the launch point to do this
>>additional task on a routine basis. OK if you have lots of ATC Cadets
>>hanging around with nothing much else to do!
>>
>
>There really is no conflict here, the gliders that are likely to suffer
>from to brisk acceleration are generally lighter and high winged. The
have
>an advantage on two fronts in that there is less inertia to overcome so
>they do not need the "extra" power to accelerate and of course being
>high winged a wing drop is less likely to result in the wing touching
the
>ground. They can therefore be launched safely with less initial power.
>On the other hand, modern glass gliders tend to be heavier and do need
the
>extra power to accelerate quickly but once this acceleration phase is
over
>they actually need less power to move them through the air so the
throttle
>technique needs to be different and this is where knowing what glider
you
>are launching is important.
>On a Skylaunch I find that with wooden gliders and some lighter glass
>gliders the throttle needs to be advanced to the adjustable stop. With
>heavy 2 seaters the throttle needs go go through the stop and then
return
>as soon as the glider is moving. The "extra" power is only needed to
>overcome the inertia. Many drivers to not provide enough power quick
>enough for heavier gliders, maybe because of the caution needed for
>lighter ones and not being taught to recognise the difference. The pilot
>needs to play his part and establish a positive rate of climb to prevent
>overspeed.
>As far as holding the tail down, I would have thought this preferable to
>having to accept a slower acceleration with the attendant risk of wing
>drop/yaw.
>We did not hold down the tail of Grob 103s, we did the Janus.
>The concrete swan was actually the Astir Del :-)
>

[Brian Whatcott]

Derek Copeland wrote:
>....
> In answer to Bill Daniel's other point, you can bang open the throttles
> of the above winches, or of our new Skylaunches by over-riding the
> throttle dampers, as fast as you want without causing harsh gear changes,
> but then you over-accelerate the gliders, and bang the tails down for nose
> sitting gliders, such as K13s, Grob G103 and K21s, too hard with a risk of
> structural damage. Again that's due to that pesky belly hook to c of g
> rotational couple!...
> Derek Copeland

There is another factor worth considering in the matter of launches.

An automatic gearbox / transmission is intended to transfer as much
horse power as possible from engine to axle.

Maximizing HP in this way involves a LARGE torque at slow speed,
tapering to a low torque at high speed.

You have mentioned that the objective of a glider launch is holding the
tension constant. This is a different objective altogether!
This calls for a ramped HP, so that either a ramped throttle application
to achieve flight speed is needed, at which point that HP is held - or
as a possible alternative: running an engine at constant (max) HP, but
throwing away excess power during the ramp to flight speed.

Brian W

[Brian Whatcott]

Don Johnstone wrote:
>... a "tension controlled" winch is about the craziest idea I have ever
> heard, not least because, thankfully, it would never work.

Why not?

Brian W

[Del C[_2_]]

At 11:49 20 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>
>There is another factor worth considering in the matter of launches.
>
>An automatic gearbox / transmission is intended to transfer as much
>horse power as possible from engine to axle.
>
>Maximizing HP in this way involves a LARGE torque at slow speed,
>tapering to a low torque at high speed.
>
>You have mentioned that the objective of a glider launch is holding the
>tension constant. This is a different objective altogether!
>This calls for a ramped HP, so that either a ramped throttle application

>to achieve flight speed is needed, at which point that HP is held - or
>as a possible alternative: running an engine at constant (max) HP, but
>throwing away excess power during the ramp to flight speed.
>
>Brian W

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. You need a lot of torque and
power to accelerate the glider up to flying speed, then a slight reduction
to allow for the safety climb and rotation and then lots of torque and
power again for the full climb. As the glider nears the top of the launch,
the climb flattens out and you need less power and torque. The cable speed
reaches a maximum as the glider starts the rotation and then drops quite a
lot as the glider enters the full climb, due to the water-skier effect, and
then continues to drop thoughout the rest of the launch.

The water-skier effect means in effect that the vertical speed is being
added to the horizontal speed, so that the maximum winch launching
airspeed would be vastly exceeeded if the cable speed is not reduced in
some way. BTW, the water-skier effect is used by water skiers themselves,
only in the horizontal axis, to gain speed for jumps and other tricks
while the ski boat continues on at a constant speed.

Oddly enough, the Skylaunch throttle stop system and automatic gearbox
seems to automatically compensate for all the above effects, except that
you have to back the throttle off near the top of the launch to avoid
overspeeding the glider.

Derek Copeland

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 11:50 20 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>Don Johnstone wrote:
>>... a "tension controlled" winch is about the craziest idea I have
ever
>> heard, not least because, thankfully, it would never work.
>
>Why not?
>
>Brian W


Because there is no direct relationship between the tension experienced at
the winch and that experienced at the glider release using wire rope.
Even with plastic rope the relationship is tenuous at best, the rope does
have some mass and in addition has an elastic quality as well. The
tensions experienced at each end of the cable can be vastly different and
are different more often than they are equal, so measuring at the winch
end tells you very little about what is happening at the glider, it may
indicate what has happened but even this is not likely to be very
accurate.

[bildan]

> I don't think it's quite as simple as that. You need a lot of torque and
> power to accelerate the glider up to flying speed,

Lets see, you have an engine from a 7000 pound road vehicle and you
are accelerating a 1,500 pound glider without even the possibility of
wheel spin and you claim you need "at lot of torque"? That doesn't
even pass a smell test.

1st and 2nd gears can/will develop so much torque at the drum you'll
break the weak link or worse. Simple arithmetic shows the GM big
block will develop 3000 pounds or more of rope tension in 3rd gear.
1st and 2nd gears are just a nuisance requiring the winch operator to
gently advance the throttle to avoid trouble.

That's just one of MANY issues related to using automotive components
in a glider winch.


then a slight reduction
> to allow for the safety climb and rotation and then lots of torque and
> power again for the full climb. As the glider nears the top of the launch,
> the climb flattens out and you need less power and torque. The cable speed
> reaches a maximum as the glider starts the rotation and then drops quite a
> lot as the glider enters the full climb, due to the water-skier effect, and
> then continues to drop thoughout the rest of the launch.
>
> The water-skier effect means in effect that the vertical speed is being
> added to the horizontal speed, so that the maximum winch launching
> airspeed would be vastly exceeeded if the cable speed is not reduced in
> some way. BTW, the water-skier effect is used by water skiers themselves,
> only in the horizontal axis, to gain speed for jumps and other tricks
> while the ski boat continues on at a constant speed.
>
> Oddly enough, the Skylaunch throttle stop system and automatic gearbox
> seems to automatically compensate for all the above effects, except *that
> you have to back the throttle off near the top of the launch to avoid
> overspeeding the glider.
>
> Derek Copeland *

[Del C[_2_]]

So how come do we hardly ever break weak links during the ground run????

Derek C

At 16:19 20 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
>> I don't think it's quite as simple as that. You need a lot of torque
and
>> power to accelerate the glider up to flying speed,
>
>Lets see, you have an engine from a 7000 pound road vehicle and you
>are accelerating a 1,500 pound glider without even the possibility of
>wheel spin and you claim you need "at lot of torque"? That doesn't
>even pass a smell test.
>
>1st and 2nd gears can/will develop so much torque at the drum you'll
>break the weak link or worse. Simple arithmetic shows the GM big
>block will develop 3000 pounds or more of rope tension in 3rd gear.
>1st and 2nd gears are just a nuisance requiring the winch operator to
>gently advance the throttle to avoid trouble.
>
>That's just one of MANY issues related to using automotive components
>in a glider winch.
>
>
>then a slight reduction
>> to allow for the safety climb and rotation and then lots of torque and
>> power again for the full climb. As the glider nears the top of the
>launch=
>,
>> the climb flattens out and you need less power and torque. The cable
>spee=
>d
>> reaches a maximum as the glider starts the rotation and then drops
quite
>=
>a
>> lot as the glider enters the full climb, due to the water-skier
effect,
>a=
>nd
>> then continues to drop thoughout the rest of the launch.
>>
>> The water-skier effect means in effect that the vertical speed is
being
>> added to the horizontal speed, so that the maximum winch launching
>> airspeed would be vastly exceeeded if the cable speed is not reduced
in
>> some way. BTW, the water-skier effect is used by water skiers
>themselves,
>> only in the horizontal axis, to gain speed for jumps and other tricks
>> while the ski boat continues on at a constant speed.
>>
>> Oddly enough, the Skylaunch throttle stop system and automatic gearbox
>> seems to automatically compensate for all the above effects, except
>=A0th=
>at
>> you have to back the throttle off near the top of the launch to avoid
>> overspeeding the glider.
>>
>> Derek Copeland =A0
>
>

[Brian Whatcott]

Del C wrote:
>.... You need a lot of torque and
> power to accelerate the glider up to flying speed, then a slight reduction
> to allow for the safety climb and rotation and then lots of torque and
> power again for the full climb....

>
> Derek Copeland

Your note quoted above seems to treat torque (or thrust, or tension)
and HP as synonymous. They are not. Somebody with a physics
background could provide helpful input here....

Brian W

[Brian Whatcott]

Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 11:50 20 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>> Don Johnstone wrote:
>>> ... a "tension controlled" winch is about the craziest idea I have
> ever
>>> heard, not least because, thankfully, it would never work.
>> Why not?
>>
>> Brian W
>
>
> Because there is no direct relationship between the tension experienced at
> the winch and that experienced at the glider release using wire rope.
> Even with plastic rope the relationship is tenuous at best, the rope does
> have some mass and in addition has an elastic quality as well. The
> tensions experienced at each end of the cable can be vastly different and
> are different more often than they are equal, so measuring at the winch
> end tells you very little about what is happening at the glider, it may
> indicate what has happened but even this is not likely to be very
> accurate.


That sounds like an interesting reply: in a comparable situation, a kite
can only carry so much line aloft, and the tension at the kite is
certainly at a different angle to that oseen by the kite flyer.

These days, a wireless sensor could be provided to measure and relay the
tension at the sailplane - but I think I am hearing that a constant
tension is not in fact wanted???


Brian W

[bildan]

On Jul 20, 11:28*am, brian whatcott > wrote:
> Don Johnstone wrote:
> > At 11:50 20 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
> >> Don Johnstone wrote:
> >>> ... *a "tension controlled" winch is about the craziest idea I have
> > ever
> >>> heard, not least because, thankfully, it would never work.
> >> Why not?
>
> >> Brian W
>
> > Because there is no direct relationship between the tension experienced at
> > the winch and that experienced at the glider release using wire rope.
> > Even with plastic rope the relationship is tenuous at best, the rope does
> > have some mass and in addition has an elastic quality as well. The
> > tensions experienced at each end of the cable can be vastly different and
> > are different more often than they are equal, so measuring at the winch
> > end tells you very little about what is happening at the glider, it may
> > indicate what has happened but even this is not likely to be very
> > accurate.
>
> That sounds like an interesting reply: in a comparable situation, a kite
> can only carry so much line aloft, and the tension at the kite is
> certainly at a different angle to that oseen by the kite flyer.
>
> These days, a wireless sensor could be provided to measure and relay the
> tension at the sailplane - but I think I am hearing that a constant
> tension is not in fact wanted???
>
> Brian W

Constant tension during the climb phase is exactly what you want.
Read George Moore's article in this month's Soaring Magazine. Tension
telemetry is a great idea - someone please build it.

A kite string or a winch rope forms a catenary arc due to it's weight
and air drag. The tension on each end of a catenary arc is the same
except for the rope/string weight difference if the ends are at
different heights. If 2000 feet of Plasma rope were hanging
vertically the tension due to its weight is zero at the bottom and
only 20 pounds at the top - that difference doesn't matter much.

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Brian,

Torque is a measure of turning or rotational force in units such as lbs.ft
or equivalent, horsepower is a measure of work done in a given period of
time (1hp = 550lb.ft/sec) and tension is a stress that produces an
elongation of an elastic physical body, usually from opposing forces. In
that you can have torque and tension without any work being done, you
really need (horse) power to make a winch launch happen.

Derek Copeland

At 17:23 20 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>Del C wrote:
>>.... You need a lot of torque and
>> power to accelerate the glider up to flying speed, then a slight
>reduction
>> to allow for the safety climb and rotation and then lots of torque and
>> power again for the full climb....
>
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>
>Your note quoted above seems to treat torque (or thrust, or tension)
>and HP as synonymous. They are not. Somebody with a physics
>background could provide helpful input here....
>
>Brian W
>

[bildan]

On Jul 20, 10:45*am, Del C > wrote:
> So how come do we hardly ever break weak links during the ground run????
>
> Derek C

See previous post about "little old lady" style throttle advance.

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

At 23:36 20 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 20, 10:45=A0am, Del C wrote:
>> So how come do we hardly ever break weak links during the ground
run????
>>
>> Derek C
>
>See previous post about "little old lady" style throttle advance.
>
The reason we don't break weak links is because we take up slack at just
over tickover revs, when the engine is not producing much power or torque.
As the glider starts moving (all out) we advance the throttle over about a
2 second interval right up to the preset power stop. The automatic gearbox
then does its job and allows smooth acceleration and smooth gearbox
upchanges until a safe rotation speed is reached. The rest of the launch
is done with the gearbox in top and essentially fixed ratio.

The techniques and the way you think an automatic gearbox works, that you
have suggested up to now, are more appropriate to drag racing than winch
launching!

Derek Copeland

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 18:15 20 July 2009, bildan wrote:

>Constant tension during the climb phase is exactly what you want.
>Read George Moore's article in this month's Soaring Magazine. Tension
>telemetry is a great idea - someone please build it.
>
>A kite string or a winch rope forms a catenary arc due to it's weight
>and air drag. The tension on each end of a catenary arc is the same
>except for the rope/string weight difference if the ends are at
>different heights. If 2000 feet of Plasma rope were hanging
>vertically the tension due to its weight is zero at the bottom and
>only 20 pounds at the top - that difference doesn't matter much.


I think we have established two facts, firstly that you have absolutely no
first hand knowledge of the operation of a Skylaunch winch so I think your
opinions on that subject can be safely ignored. I have driven many types
of winch, for many hours, including the Skylaunch and I know that it works
extremely well with none of the "faults" that you imagine it has. It is
not the best winch I have ever driven but it is very close and the MVG is
not an affordable option for most UK clubs. The MVG is also too
complicated for use at most clubs, too many advance features.

Now consider the following case. A glider at the top of the launch, the
cable is exerting a force on the release hook of x pounds which you deem
to be tension. This force is due almost entirely to the weight of the
steel cable and is considerable. At the winch end the cable is being
retrieved very slowly or not at all, the measurable tension at that end is
close to or maybe even equal to 0. The force exerted at either end of the
cable is totally different, that is the extreme case of course but, as a
glider climbs the "tension" or force exerted on the release will
increase as the glider takes more of the weight of the cable. Please
explain how this increase can be measured or taken into account at the
winch end.

Please do not evade the question by discussing plastic rope.

All the winches I have ever driven or observed have had something which
takes care of the changing circumstances very well, we call that something
a driver and a skilled driver does not need gizzmos to give a good launch.
I am fast coming to the conclusion that the real problem here is that you
are actually afraid of winch launching and if that is the case, don't do
it.

[tommytoyz[_2_]]

What we here in the USA need is a cheap good winch option. We need
price quotes. Bill says his will be cheaper than the Skylaunch. Well,
what the price then? Skylaunch publishes theirs. However, I agree with
Bill in that 90,000 Euros is way too expensive. They're certainly
making a nice profit at that price.

Perhaps a US bases shop could offer a similar system as the Skylaunch/
Tost for much less than European prices, especially if some clubs get
together and make a combined group order. I think one of the problems
is the very low volume of production for commercial manufacturers.

Or perhaps an easy set of plans could be drawn up and digitized to be
ordered and manufactured by a machine shop for any club or operator
whenever a new winch is desired? Bottom line, we have to get the price
down from 90,000 Euros.
Tom

[johngalloway[_2_]]

On Jul 21, 2:59*am, tommytoyz > wrote:
> What we here in the USA need is a cheap good winch option. We need
> price quotes. Bill says his will be cheaper than the Skylaunch. Well,
> what the price then? Skylaunch publishes theirs. However, I agree with
> Bill in that 90,000 Euros is way too expensive. They're certainly
> making a nice profit at that price.
>
> Perhaps a US bases shop could offer a similar system as the Skylaunch/
> Tost for much less than European prices, especially if some clubs get
> together and make a combined group order. I think one of the problems
> is the very low volume of production for commercial manufacturers.
>
> Or perhaps an easy set of plans could be drawn up and digitized to be
> ordered and manufactured by a machine shop for any club or operator
> whenever a new winch is desired? Bottom line, we have to get the price
> down from 90,000 Euros.
> Tom

Why talk euros? Skylaunch are a UK firm and the price is around
60,000 pounds sterling (possibly less with negotiation) - I think the
euro price of 90,000 quoted above represents a very out of date pound/
euro exchange rate of 1:1.5 and is therefore meaningless in the
context of this discussion. Other European winches such as the MEL
are way more expensive.

http://www.skylaunchuk.com/

(For the record my only connection with Skylaunch is hoping that our
club buys one soon)

John Galloway

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

If you can live without a heated and air-conditioned cab and a few other
gizmos, Skylaunch do a cheaper version of their winch called the Skylaunch
3. This can also be bought as a kit, so if you can locally source engines
and transmissions it could work out a whole lot cheaper. See:

http://www.skylaunchuk.com

As to capital cost, our winches do over 10,000 launches per year, so they
pay for themselves quite soon. And think how much clubs will happily lay
out for a decent tow plane.

Derek Copeland


At 01:59 21 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
>What we here in the USA need is a cheap good winch option. We need
>price quotes. Bill says his will be cheaper than the Skylaunch. Well,
>what the price then? Skylaunch publishes theirs. However, I agree with
>Bill in that 90,000 Euros is way too expensive. They're certainly
>making a nice profit at that price.
>
>Perhaps a US bases shop could offer a similar system as the Skylaunch/
>Tost for much less than European prices, especially if some clubs get
>together and make a combined group order. I think one of the problems
>is the very low volume of production for commercial manufacturers.
>
>Or perhaps an easy set of plans could be drawn up and digitized to be
>ordered and manufactured by a machine shop for any club or operator
>whenever a new winch is desired? Bottom line, we have to get the price
>down from 90,000 Euros.
>Tom
>

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

I note from the Skylaunch price list that a new diesel engine equivalent in
power to a new GM marine 502 V8 costs £21,000 (31,000 Euros) more! The
cheapest Skylaunch 3 kit excluding engine and gearbox is £26,237 (38,072
Euros). As this includes all the difficult to make bits, it would be a
good starting point.

Derek Copeland


At 06:23 21 July 2009, johngalloway wrote:
>On Jul 21, 2:59=A0am, tommytoyz wrote:
>> What we here in the USA need is a cheap good winch option. We need
>> price quotes. Bill says his will be cheaper than the Skylaunch. Well,
>> what the price then? Skylaunch publishes theirs. However, I agree with
>> Bill in that 90,000 Euros is way too expensive. They're certainly
>> making a nice profit at that price.
>>
>> Perhaps a US bases shop could offer a similar system as the Skylaunch/
>> Tost for much less than European prices, especially if some clubs get
>> together and make a combined group order. I think one of the problems
>> is the very low volume of production for commercial manufacturers.
>>
>> Or perhaps an easy set of plans could be drawn up and digitized to be
>> ordered and manufactured by a machine shop for any club or operator
>> whenever a new winch is desired? Bottom line, we have to get the price
>> down from 90,000 Euros.
>> Tom
>
>Why talk euros? Skylaunch are a UK firm and the price is around
>60,000 pounds sterling (possibly less with negotiation) - I think the
>euro price of 90,000 quoted above represents a very out of date pound/
>euro exchange rate of 1:1.5 and is therefore meaningless in the
>context of this discussion. Other European winches such as the MEL
>are way more expensive.
>
>http://www.skylaunchuk.com/
>
>(For the record my only connection with Skylaunch is hoping that our
>club buys one soon)
>
>John Galloway
>

[tommytoyz[_2_]]

I see that their main business is making winches and that's why they
charge what they charge. But it doesn't make sense to spend $90,000 on
their cheaper system, not including transportation costs to the US,
when the engine/transmission costs less than $10,000. I mean, $5,000
for a GUILLOTINE ASSEMBLY for over $5,000 on a double drum - come on.

Perhaps the best way to go is buy the bare bones Kit for a "mere"
$44,000 not counting transportation. Any way you slice it, with
Skylaunch, it's not possible to be operational for less than $60,000,
which would include a lot of sweat equity. I think it's a bit much.
Tom

[tommytoyz[_2_]]

Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
Lasham?

[bildan]

On Jul 20, 7:59*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> What we here in the USA need is a cheap good winch option. We need
> price quotes. Bill says his will be cheaper than the Skylaunch. Well,
> what the price then? Skylaunch publishes theirs. However, I agree with
> Bill in that 90,000 Euros is way too expensive. They're certainly
> making a nice profit at that price.
>
> Perhaps a US bases shop could offer a similar system as the Skylaunch/
> Tost for much less than European prices, especially if some clubs get
> together and make a combined group order. I think one of the problems
> is the very low volume of production for commercial manufacturers.
>
> Or perhaps an easy set of plans could be drawn up and digitized to be
> ordered and manufactured by a machine shop for any club or operator
> whenever a new winch is desired? Bottom line, we have to get the price
> down from 90,000 Euros.
> Tom

Tom, the Hydrowinch is not "my" winch. I have no interest other than
as a cheerleader for both the Colorado Springs and San Diego makers of
advanced US winches. My association with Hydrowinch is as a volunteer
gofer, test pilot, wrench turner and sometimes airfield mower. I know
they want to sell the winch at little over their costs but until the
testing and development is complete, the final price will not be
known.

Yes, you can build your own winch and save a lot of money doing it. I
started advocating that in 2000 but very few people today want to use
their hands or learn the skills needed to build one. I actually wrote
a 36 page proposal with suggested sources of parts and materials.

If you ask machine shops to make the winch or even major components,
be prepared for some serious sticker shock. You have to do all most
all the work yourself to gain significant financial advantage. Try to
keep all the "fiddly" work to yourself and farm out the absolute
minimum to machine shops. Above all, stay away from the "prototype
shops" and look for one whose main business is repairing farm
equipment - they're cheaper and they understand the machine better.

Most of all, stay away from the "mechanical sculpture" disease. Study
the problem extensively before cutting metal.

[bildan]

On Jul 21, 4:12*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
> club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
> Lasham?

Actually, if you look at the German web site www.segelflug.de click on
the English flag and then on "commercials" (and discover it's still in
German) but persist by scrolling down to "Biete Sonstiges", (other
gear) you find several used European winches for sale along with a lot
of other interesting glider stuff.

However, you're right. Shipping costs are a deal killer. Most likely
it's still better to build your own.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 21, 4:01*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> I see that their main business is making winches and that's why they
> charge what they charge. But it doesn't make sense to spend $90,000 on
> their cheaper system, not including transportation costs to the US,
> when the engine/transmission costs less than $10,000. I mean, $5,000
> for a GUILLOTINE ASSEMBLY for over $5,000 on a double drum - come on.
>
> Perhaps the best way to go is buy the bare bones Kit for a "mere"
> $44,000 not counting transportation. Any way you slice it, with
> Skylaunch, it's not possible to be operational for less than $60,000,
> which would include a lot of sweat equity. I think it's a bit much.
> Tom

Note their Skydrive. Add your big block engine and transmission, pay
on rig, and controls and you're away.

Just the ticket with a retrieve winch setup.

Still too much? I just had a drum built for a CAP owned Gehrlein Model
62 winch (late 1960's vintage). Based on a 22-inch truck wheel, the
machining, welding, and materials cost $1165 (we crushed the old drum
last year). Runs true and well balanced. The Amsteel Blue rope we've
been using for over the past couple of weeks cost close to $3000 and
is being rented on a per launch basis. The basic winch is about 40
years old with a 351-Windsor 2bbl and FMX automatic. Kind of wheezy
for our 5500msl field, but still knocking out 1400ft launches in nil
wind. Last year on a longer run and lower elevation we got
2200-2600agl.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 21, 9:26*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Jul 21, 4:12*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
>
> > Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
> > club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
> > Lasham?
>
> Actually, if you look at the German web sitewww.segelflug.declick on
> the English flag and then on "commercials" (and discover it's still in
> German) but persist by scrolling down to "Biete Sonstiges", (other
> gear) you find several used European winches for sale along with a lot
> of other interesting glider stuff.
>
> However, you're right. *Shipping costs are a deal killer. *Most likely
> it's still better to build your own.

From what I hear, shipping costs are not high at the moment, even for
40ft containers. Ro-ro may be a cheaper option on some, especially if
self propelled. It will be a small percentage of the total cost.

Your bigger obstacle is finding the right site. It may not be your
current site. But if you use the modern synthetic ropes, it will open
up many more options than trying to use steel.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

At 22:01 21 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
>I see that their main business is making winches and that's why they
>charge what they charge. But it doesn't make sense to spend $90,000 on
>their cheaper system, not including transportation costs to the US,
>when the engine/transmission costs less than $10,000. I mean, $5,000
>for a GUILLOTINE ASSEMBLY for over $5,000 on a double drum - come on.
>
>Perhaps the best way to go is buy the bare bones Kit for a "mere"
>$44,000 not counting transportation. Any way you slice it, with
>Skylaunch, it's not possible to be operational for less than $60,000,
>which would include a lot of sweat equity. I think it's a bit much.
>Tom
>
On the other hand you are paying for expertise, development costs and a
machine that is known to be safe, to work well and to be easy to drive.
There is a lot more to a decent winch than just the engine and gearbox.
How much would you expect to pay for a decent towplane?

There are many homebuilt winches lying around rusting because they didn't
work well or were just bloody dangerous. Any money spent on them was
wasted.

As Skylaunch import their engines from the US anyway, it would make sense
to buy them locally rather than shipping them twice across the Atlantic.

Derek Copeland

[bildan]

On Jul 22, 12:30*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> At 22:01 21 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:>I see that their main business is making winches and that's why they
> >charge what they charge. But it doesn't make sense to spend $90,000 on
> >their cheaper system, not including transportation costs to the US,
> >when the engine/transmission costs less than $10,000. I mean, $5,000
> >for a GUILLOTINE ASSEMBLY for over $5,000 on a double drum - come on.
>
> >Perhaps the best way to go is buy the bare bones Kit for a "mere"
> >$44,000 not counting transportation. Any way you slice it, with
> >Skylaunch, it's not possible to be operational for less than $60,000,
> >which would include a lot of sweat equity. I think it's a bit much.
> >Tom
>
> On the other hand you are paying for expertise, development costs and a
> machine that is known to be safe, to work well and to be easy to drive.
> There is a lot more to a decent winch than just the engine and gearbox.
> How much would you expect to pay for a decent towplane?
>
> There are many homebuilt winches lying around rusting because they didn't
> work well or were just bloody dangerous. Any money spent on them was
> wasted.
>
> As Skylaunch import their engines from the US anyway, it would make sense
> to buy them locally rather than shipping them twice across the Atlantic.
>
> Derek Copeland

It would make still more sense to just look at the "special parts" and
build equivalents in the US. There's no "magic" in the Skylaunch that
couldn't be replicated here at much lower cost - assuming you'd
acutally want to do that. "You can take the transmission out of the
road vehicle, but you can't take the road vehicle behavior out of the
transmission."

Actually, a different picture is emerging about these old US winches.
Most of them seem to have been taken out of service when they simply
wore out and because aero tow became universally available not because
they didn't work. Then there's the fact that they were built to
launch then current gliders which didn't require so much power.

A recent Gerhlein refurbishment project ended with the overhaul or
replacement of just about everything except the license plate.

[Dave Martin[_3_]]

So what are you saying Bill?

That old technology actually works and being brought up to date
does the job people want?

Dave

At 15:39 22 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 22, 12:30=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:
>> At 22:01 21 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:>I see that their main business
>is=
> making winches and that's why they
>> >charge what they charge. But it doesn't make sense to spend $90,000
on
>> >their cheaper system, not including transportation costs to the US,
>> >when the engine/transmission costs less than $10,000. I mean, $5,000
>> >for a GUILLOTINE ASSEMBLY for over $5,000 on a double drum - come on.
>>
>> >Perhaps the best way to go is buy the bare bones Kit for a "mere"
>> >$44,000 not counting transportation. Any way you slice it, with
>> >Skylaunch, it's not possible to be operational for less than
$60,000,
>> >which would include a lot of sweat equity. I think it's a bit much.
>> >Tom
>>
>> On the other hand you are paying for expertise, development costs and
a
>> machine that is known to be safe, to work well and to be easy to
drive.
>> There is a lot more to a decent winch than just the engine and
gearbox.
>> How much would you expect to pay for a decent towplane?
>>
>> There are many homebuilt winches lying around rusting because they
>didn't
>> work well or were just bloody dangerous. Any money spent on them was
>> wasted.
>>
>> As Skylaunch import their engines from the US anyway, it would make
>sense
>> to buy them locally rather than shipping them twice across the
Atlantic.
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>
>It would make still more sense to just look at the "special parts" and
>build equivalents in the US. There's no "magic" in the Skylaunch
that
>couldn't be replicated here at much lower cost - assuming you'd
>acutally want to do that. "You can take the transmission out of the
>road vehicle, but you can't take the road vehicle behavior out of the
>transmission."
>
>Actually, a different picture is emerging about these old US winches.
>Most of them seem to have been taken out of service when they simply
>wore out and because aero tow became universally available not because
>they didn't work. Then there's the fact that they were built to
>launch then current gliders which didn't require so much power.
>
>A recent Gerhlein refurbishment project ended with the overhaul or
>replacement of just about everything except the license plate.
>
>

[tommytoyz[_2_]]

Bill,
How much did the Gehrlein overhaul cost? Perhaps this could process
can be replicated several times over. My guess is that once small
scale winch launching grabs a foothold via Gehrlein winches and it
becomes more popular and more pilots get winch certified, that demand
will grow and we'll see the need for more productive multiple drum
winches. Perhaps we can then use the Gehrleins as retrieve winches at
that point.

Launch costs can be brought down so low, as to stimulate soaring in
this country. I myself am tired of paying $50 for one single aerotow -
it's nuts. Nothing will stimulate soaring more than to bring the costs
down and winch launching not only does that but makes soaring more
challenging and fun too!

I know, I'm preaching to the choir. So, choir, we need a cheap initial
solution to get things moving - to demonstrate and get people
certified - before we can realistically talk about expensive, albeit
more productive, winches.
Tom

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 22, 12:48*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> Bill,
> How much did the Gehrlein overhaul cost? Perhaps this could process
> can be replicated several times over. My guess is that once small
> scale winch launching grabs a foothold via Gehrlein winches and it
> becomes more popular and more pilots get winch certified, that demand
> will grow and we'll see the need for more productive multiple drum
> winches. Perhaps we can then use the Gehrleins as retrieve winches at
> that point.
>
> Launch costs can be brought down so low, as to stimulate soaring in
> this country. I myself am tired of paying $50 for one single aerotow -
> it's nuts. Nothing will stimulate soaring more than to bring the costs
> down and winch launching not only does that but makes soaring more
> challenging and fun too!
>
> I know, I'm preaching to the choir. So, choir, we need a cheap initial
> solution to get things moving - to demonstrate and get people
> certified - before we can realistically talk about expensive, albeit
> more productive, winches.
> Tom

Once you have the winch, budget $10,000-$20,000 for engine/
transmission, battery, wiring, new drum, feed assembly and guillotine
improvement, tires, UHMWPE rope, chute/disk, rings, weak links, strop,
paint, good communications devices and chocks.

Frank Whiteley

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Has anybody in the good old US of A developed a printed, available,
specification for the pay-on gear for Dyneema etc. rope – like low
weight (aluminum? - note USA spelling!) rollers, low friction and low
inertia bearings, anything special needed for the drum , etc.?

I suspect that there is scope for saving inventing too many wheels
twice over.

(And for the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT going to get into the Bildan/
DC/DJ etc. spats – you are all welcome to keep those among
yourselves.)

Chris N.

[sisu1a]

On Jul 22, 4:50*pm, Chris Nicholas > wrote:
> Has anybody in the good old US of A developed a printed, available,
> specification for the pay-on gear for Dyneema etc. rope – like low
> weight (aluminum? - note USA spelling!) rollers, low friction and low
> inertia bearings, anything special needed for the drum , etc.?
>
> I suspect that there is scope for saving inventing too many wheels
> twice over.
>
> (And for the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT going to get into the Bildan/
> DC/DJ etc. spats – you are all welcome to keep those among
> yourselves.)
>
> Chris N.

While I'm sure there *are such documents handy, if your goal is
'saving wheels' one can (and is better off...) doing away with the
level wind mechanism altogether, which is itself a source of
additional hassle in most operations. The trick is to use a high
enough aspect drum and have a long enough run between the fairlead
assy and the drum, somewhere around 1:18 I believe, comparing drum
width to run length between the two mechanisms according to German
DAeC.

Assuming a bigblock/TH400/truck rearend setup is what you're leaning
towards, final drive gearing needs to be selected based on drum
diameter, since larger diameter drums call for higher gear ratios in
the rearends... a small price to pay considering. There are
spreadsheets and other files covering all this on winchdesign BTW

-Paul

PS. join the winchdesign group and comb the postings and files there
as well as keeping up on new ones...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/ -that is if you can
handle more episodes of the Derek/Bill show ;)

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 22, 5:50*pm, Chris Nicholas > wrote:
> Has anybody in the good old US of A developed a printed, available,
> specification for the pay-on gear for Dyneema etc. rope – like low
> weight (aluminum? - note USA spelling!) rollers, low friction and low
> inertia bearings, anything special needed for the drum , etc.?
>
> I suspect that there is scope for saving inventing too many wheels
> twice over.
>
> (And for the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT going to get into the Bildan/
> DC/DJ etc. spats – you are all welcome to keep those among
> yourselves.)
>
> Chris N.

The hydrowinch feed is a single sheave approximately 8inches in
diameter, perhaps an 1.25" wide with a tapering v-notch. Aluminum and
powder coated. I suspect a common bearing type. Close enough
tolerance in the fairlead to avoid problems.

The original drum has been reinforced at the center, but has a u-
shaped cross section. About 36" at inner core.

See my other post about the drum I recently had built. Worked fine
though the axle shaft align is slightly off leading to a slight
tendancy to load the rope to one side. A bit of cutting and welding
needed to correct this. Images in winchdesign Yahoo group.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 22, 6:38*pm, sisu1a > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 4:50*pm, Chris Nicholas > wrote:
>
> > Has anybody in the good old US of A developed a printed, available,
> > specification for the pay-on gear for Dyneema etc. rope – like low
> > weight (aluminum? - note USA spelling!) rollers, low friction and low
> > inertia bearings, anything special needed for the drum , etc.?
>
> > I suspect that there is scope for saving inventing too many wheels
> > twice over.
>
> > (And for the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT going to get into the Bildan/
> > DC/DJ etc. spats – you are all welcome to keep those among
> > yourselves.)
>
> > Chris N.
>
> While I'm sure there *are such documents handy, if your goal is
> 'saving wheels' one can (and is better off...) doing away with the
> level wind mechanism altogether, which is itself a source of
> additional hassle in most operations. The trick is to use a high
> enough aspect drum and have a long enough run between the fairlead
> assy and the drum, somewhere around 1:18 I believe, comparing drum
> width to run length between the two mechanisms according to German
> DAeC.
>
> Assuming a bigblock/TH400/truck rearend setup is what you're leaning
> towards, final drive gearing needs to be selected based on drum
> diameter, since larger diameter drums call for higher gear ratios in
> the rearends... a small price to pay considering. There are
> spreadsheets and other files covering all this on winchdesign BTW
>
> -Paul
>
> PS. join the winchdesign group and comb the postings and files there
> as well as keeping up on new ones...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/* -that is if you can
> handle more episodes of the Derek/Bill show *;)

The ratio of drum width to feed is 10:1 for unassisted level winding.
So an 8-inch wide drum needs 80 inches. The Gehrlein Model 62
distance is about 88 inches from axle to rollers. The drum I had
built is 8.5 inches wide. A high ratio can only make it more
effective.

That said, the winch at Littlefield, TX, uses a simple level wind that
is easy to maintain and works very well on their wide drum. The wide
drum advantage is the there is a small shift in the torque arm as the
drum loads.

Frank Whiteley

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Chris,

Nothing special required, except that the rollers or pulleys should be
smoothed out and polished if they have been used for steel cable. Some
types of drum may need to be reinforced as Dyneema can slip and tighten on
the drum to the extent that it get crushed.

What type of winch do you have?

Derek Copeland


At 23:50 22 July 2009, Chris Nicholas wrote:
>Has anybody in the good old US of A developed a printed, available,
>specification for the pay-on gear for Dyneema etc. rope =96 like low
>weight (aluminum? - note USA spelling!) rollers, low friction and low
>inertia bearings, anything special needed for the drum , etc.?
>
>I suspect that there is scope for saving inventing too many wheels
>twice over.
>
>(And for the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT going to get into the Bildan/
>DC/DJ etc. spats =96 you are all welcome to keep those among
>yourselves.)
>
>Chris N.
>
>
>

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Thanks for answers so far.

Derek, we have two ex-ATC winches (Eagle or Wild – not sure which), re-
equipped with USA-made V8’s and auto gearboxes. Both run on LPG or
similar. One has a completely new cab, the other a modified cab.

We bought the basic winches in about 1991 at auction, cost less than
£1000 (say $1600) each. First was modified by ourselves at very low
cost, with an ex-Ford Tow truck 5.6L V8 and associated auto
transmission. The second we used a winch-builder at another gliding
club who had built their Tost winch, and he modified ours including
new big V8 and auto transmission, and the completely new cab. I think
we spent about £14000 on the conversion, and completed a bit ourselves
at very modest extra cost.

Chris N.

[Chris Reed[_2_]]

Chris Nicholas wrote:
> Thanks for answers so far.
>
> Derek, we have two ex-ATC winches (Eagle or Wild – not sure which), re-
> equipped with USA-made V8’s and auto gearboxes. Both run on LPG or
> similar. One has a completely new cab, the other a modified cab.
>
> We bought the basic winches in about 1991 at auction, cost less than
> £1000 (say $1600) each. First was modified by ourselves at very low
> cost, with an ex-Ford Tow truck 5.6L V8 and associated auto
> transmission. The second we used a winch-builder at another gliding
> club who had built their Tost winch, and he modified ours including
> new big V8 and auto transmission, and the completely new cab. I think
> we spent about £14000 on the conversion, and completed a bit ourselves
> at very modest extra cost.
>
> Chris N.
>
>
I can add that I've launched from at least one of those winches, and had
very nice launches. Probably down to the driver, though there's clearly
nothing wrong with the winch(es).

Hint for US clubs who go for a winch - pilots should always thank the
winch driver for good launches, and explain what went wrong if a launch
is not satisfactory. This feedback helps the driver to improve, and also
means that your own foibles might be catered for in future launches!
Poor launches are often the pilot's own fault, and winch drivers like to
know that it wasn't their poor driving.

[bildan]

On Jul 22, 5:50*pm, Chris Nicholas > wrote:
> Has anybody in the good old US of A developed a printed, available,
> specification for the pay-on gear for Dyneema etc. rope – like low
> weight (aluminum? - note USA spelling!) rollers, low friction and low
> inertia bearings, anything special needed for the drum , etc.?
>
> I suspect that there is scope for saving inventing too many wheels
> twice over.
>
> (And for the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT going to get into the Bildan/
> DC/DJ etc. spats – you are all welcome to keep those among
> yourselves.)
>
> Chris N.

Yes, I have and I'll send anyone the CAD files free. The unit has
been built and tested on an old Gerhlein winch and it shows no
degradation of the Plasma Rope.

[bildan]

On Jul 22, 12:48*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> Bill,
> How much did the Gehrlein overhaul cost? Perhaps this could process
> can be replicated several times over. My guess is that once small
> scale winch launching grabs a foothold via Gehrlein winches and it
> becomes more popular and more pilots get winch certified, that demand
> will grow and we'll see the need for more productive multiple drum
> winches. Perhaps we can then use the Gehrleins as retrieve winches at
> that point.
>
> Launch costs can be brought down so low, as to stimulate soaring in
> this country. I myself am tired of paying $50 for one single aerotow -
> it's nuts. Nothing will stimulate soaring more than to bring the costs
> down and winch launching not only does that but makes soaring more
> challenging and fun too!
>
> I know, I'm preaching to the choir. So, choir, we need a cheap initial
> solution to get things moving - to demonstrate and get people
> certified - before we can realistically talk about expensive, albeit
> more productive, winches.
> Tom

I've worked pretty hard helping small winch operations get going with
refurbished winches. You're right. Once people get familiar with
winch launch, they'll want better equipment.

[bildan]

On Jul 23, 12:45*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> Chris,
>
> Nothing special required, except that the rollers or pulleys should be
> smoothed out and polished if they have been used for steel cable. Some
> types of drum may need to be reinforced as Dyneema can slip and tighten on
> the drum to the extent that it get crushed.
>

More spectacularly bad advice from Del C.

Smoothing and polishing rollers will NOT work since the rope slides in
a helical path on the roller if the wrap angle is not exactly at right
angles to the roller. All roller designs used with 'plastic rope'
show rings of melted plastic when used with Plasma Rope. The rope
itself shows severe damage from melting. Using rollers with Plasma
Rope is an expensive mistake

Plasma Rope (Spectra/Dyneema) should have swiveling pulleys with
specific pulley groove geometry. I have a tested design for fairlead
pulleys with a Plasma specific guillotine that I'll let anybody use to
make their own. E-mail me and I'll send the drawings.

[bildan]

On Jul 22, 11:16*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 6:38*pm, sisu1a > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 22, 4:50*pm, Chris Nicholas > wrote:
>
> > > Has anybody in the good old US of A developed a printed, available,
> > > specification for the pay-on gear for Dyneema etc. rope – like low
> > > weight (aluminum? - note USA spelling!) rollers, low friction and low
> > > inertia bearings, anything special needed for the drum , etc.?
>
> > > I suspect that there is scope for saving inventing too many wheels
> > > twice over.
>
> > > (And for the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT going to get into the Bildan/
> > > DC/DJ etc. spats – you are all welcome to keep those among
> > > yourselves.)
>
> > > Chris N.
>
> > While I'm sure there *are such documents handy, if your goal is
> > 'saving wheels' one can (and is better off...) doing away with the
> > level wind mechanism altogether, which is itself a source of
> > additional hassle in most operations. The trick is to use a high
> > enough aspect drum and have a long enough run between the fairlead
> > assy and the drum, somewhere around 1:18 I believe, comparing drum
> > width to run length between the two mechanisms according to German
> > DAeC.
>
> > Assuming a bigblock/TH400/truck rearend setup is what you're leaning
> > towards, final drive gearing needs to be selected based on drum
> > diameter, since larger diameter drums call for higher gear ratios in
> > the rearends... a small price to pay considering. There are
> > spreadsheets and other files covering all this on winchdesign BTW
>
> > -Paul
>
> > PS. join the winchdesign group and comb the postings and files there
> > as well as keeping up on new ones...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/*-that is if you can
> > handle more episodes of the Derek/Bill show *;)
>
> The ratio of drum width to feed is 10:1 for unassisted level winding.
> So an 8-inch wide drum needs 80 inches. *The Gehrlein Model 62
> distance is about 88 inches from axle to rollers. *The drum I had
> built is 8.5 inches wide. *A high ratio can only make it more
> effective.
>
> That said, the winch at Littlefield, TX, uses a simple level wind that
> is easy to maintain and works very well on their wide drum. *The wide
> drum advantage is the there is a small shift in the torque arm as the
> drum loads.
>
> Frank Whiteley

The German DAeC winch recommendation calls for an 18:1 ratio between
fairlead pulleys and the drum width. However, that's for steel
cable. "Plastic Rope" seems to spread out nicely so even 8:1 seems to
work.

[bildan]

On Jul 22, 12:48*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> Bill,
> How much did the Gehrlein overhaul cost? Perhaps this could process
> can be replicated several times over. My guess is that once small
> scale winch launching grabs a foothold via Gehrlein winches and it
> becomes more popular and more pilots get winch certified, that demand
> will grow and we'll see the need for more productive multiple drum
> winches. Perhaps we can then use the Gehrleins as retrieve winches at
> that point.
>
> Launch costs can be brought down so low, as to stimulate soaring in
> this country. I myself am tired of paying $50 for one single aerotow -
> it's nuts. Nothing will stimulate soaring more than to bring the costs
> down and winch launching not only does that but makes soaring more
> challenging and fun too!
>
> I know, I'm preaching to the choir. So, choir, we need a cheap initial
> solution to get things moving - to demonstrate and get people
> certified - before we can realistically talk about expensive, albeit
> more productive, winches.
> Tom

So far, it's probably in the $4000 - $5000 range but this particular
winch was well worn out and, in it's original form, not really
usable. Winch works now but refurbishing is still underway.

1. Replaced engine with a GM rebuilt long block for about $1400. New
ignition, carburetor added another $600.

2. Rebuilt the '57 Chevy rear end with 3:55 gears for about $700 with
new wheel bearings. (Better idea: put '57 Chevy parts on e-Bay and
use proceeds to buy new winch.)

3. Sawed off old roller box and replaced it with a "Spectra friendly"
pulley/guillotine assembly for about $1000. Drawings available.

6. A Bunch of other bits like electric radiator fans.

[bildan]

On Jul 22, 10:30*am, Dave Martin > wrote:
> So what are you saying Bill?
>
> That old technology actually works and being brought up to date
> does the job people want?
>

Well, not really. You could say a Model T "works" but you wouldn't
want to take one on a California Freeway. They're good enough to get
started but I really hope to see them quickly replaced with far, far
better equipment.

You have to put the word "works" in quotes since a refurbished
Gerhlein winch only works as well as it did in the '50's - except for
the Plasma Rope which is light years ahead of steel cable. There's a
technology gulf of more than half a century between the technology in
an old Gerhlein and state-of-the-art winches like the Hydrowinch.

These old winches are highly dependent on skilled winch operators and
benign operating conditions. They can still deliver some big
surprises under non-optimum conditions. There are virtually no
safeguards against operator error or really much protection for the
winch operator. Even under optimum conditions, one launch is rarely
like the one before.

[bildan]

On Jul 21, 4:12*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
> club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
> Lasham?

My German contacts recommend against buying an old Tost winch since
the parts they are made from are no longer available. In many ways
they share the same technology as the old Gerhleins.

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

At 00:10 24 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 21, 4:12=A0pm, tommytoyz wrote:
>> Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
>> club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
>> Lasham?
>
>My German contacts recommend against buying an old Tost winch since
>the parts they are made from are no longer available. In many ways
>they share the same technology as the old Gerhleins.
>
Tost winches are good solid bits of German engineering and, from what I
can gather, far superior to a Gerhlein. The Lasham ones did over 7,500
launches each per year from 1985 to 2008, and one of them is still going
strong at the Mendips Gliding Club, who are apparently delighted with it.
Lasham has retained the other one for the time being.

The only downsides are that they are purely manually driven and a bit
fiddly to operate, and that some spares are getting difficult to obtain.
They can be fitted with the Skylaunch throttle kits which overcomes the
first problem.

Derek Copeland

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

I assume that Bill's comment is intended to be yet another thinly veiled
attack on Skylaunch, who make an excellent winch! There is no hard
evidence that rollers are any less Dyneema friendly, and in any case
Skylaunch can supply and fit swivelling pulleys if you think they are
better. Our new Skylaunch winches at Lasham are so fitted.

Again the rollers he is talking about are as fitted to antiquated US
Gerhlein winches, and his Ford Model T analogy is about right.

The guillotine issue is more relevant. For some reason hardened steel
blades that will chop steel cable many times are instantly blunted when
used on any type of UHMWPE synthetic cable. I believe the fix is to
replace the anvil with a bronze component. So much for modern materials
and technology!

Derek Copeland

At 23:39 23 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 23, 12:45=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:
>> Chris,
>>
>> Nothing special required, except that the rollers or pulleys should be
>> smoothed out and polished if they have been used for steel cable. Some
>> types of drum may need to be reinforced as Dyneema can slip and
tighten
>o=
>n
>> the drum to the extent that it get crushed.
>>
>
>More spectacularly bad advice from Del C.
>
>Smoothing and polishing rollers will NOT work since the rope slides in
>a helical path on the roller if the wrap angle is not exactly at right
>angles to the roller. All roller designs used with 'plastic rope'
>show rings of melted plastic when used with Plasma Rope. The rope
>itself shows severe damage from melting. Using rollers with Plasma
>Rope is an expensive mistake
>
>Plasma Rope (Spectra/Dyneema) should have swiveling pulleys with
>specific pulley groove geometry. I have a tested design for fairlead
>pulleys with a Plasma specific guillotine that I'll let anybody use to
>make their own. E-mail me and I'll send the drawings.
>

[Peter Scholz[_2_]]

bildan wrote:
> On Jul 21, 4:12 pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
>> Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
>> club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
>> Lasham?
>
> My German contacts recommend against buying an old Tost winch since
> the parts they are made from are no longer available.
> ...

This is not true. All parts are available, see
http://tost-startwinden.de/ or contact Tost >.

There are a few hundred Tost winches operating here in Germany, and
other countries, and I have heard of no difficulties getting spare
parts, or even drawings if required.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW 24 JEB

[Del C[_2_]]

At 07:04 24 July 2009, Peter Scholz wrote:
>bildan wrote:
>> On Jul 21, 4:12 pm, tommytoyz wrote:
>>> Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
>>> club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
>>> Lasham?
>>
>> My German contacts recommend against buying an old Tost winch since
>> the parts they are made from are no longer available.
>> ...
>
>This is not true. All parts are available, see
>http://tost-startwinden.de/ or contact Tost .
>
>There are a few hundred Tost winches operating here in Germany, and
>other countries, and I have heard of no difficulties getting spare
>parts, or even drawings if required.
>
>--
Don't worry Peter! Bill thinks that anything not made in the USA is no
good. He is from the country that came up with the supposedly self
defending B17 Bomber that your lot shot down in droves in WW2, at least
until the long range Mustang fighters with UK designed Merlin engines came
along to defend them.

Then there are their awful, gas guzzling automobiles with stone age
technology and built in obsolescence. No wonder that the US Citizens who
can afford them buy German and Japanese cars.

I will make an exception for the Chevy big block V8 engines which seem to
be strong and reliable. Ditto the Buick V8.

Most US 'inventions' have British or German origins, including
Automobiles, Jet Engines, Supersonic Aircraft, Rockets, Harrier Jump Jets,
Gliders, etc, etc.

I note that even the Gehrlein (Gerhlein?) Winch seems to have a German
type name, so maybe it's not as bad as I thought. Does anyone have any
information about this company?

Derek Copeland

P.S. To answer Tommytoyz's question, I believe the Tost winch we sold as
a basic unit fetched about £8,500 (10,000 Euros, 14,000 US Dollars). Not
bad for something that cost about £20,000 new in 1985.

[R[_2_]]

Del C wrote:
> I note that even the Gehrlein (Gerhlein?) Winch seems to have a German
> type name, so maybe it's not as bad as I thought. Does anyone have any
> information about this company?
>
> Derek Copeland
>
Gehrlein Winches were built by Gehrlein Welding of Erie, Pennsylvania,
which was run by Larry Gehrlein and Larry Gehrlein, Jr., both involved
in soaring in the 1950's and until their deaths a few years ago.
Rod and Jay Gehrlein, sons of Larry Sr. operate Gehrlein Products a
glider repair facility, near Erie, and fly their gliders out of their
strip behind the repair shop.

[Rodger]

Hello All

Has there been any experimentation with a payout winch similar to what
is used for hang glider launches.
It seems that the acceleration on takeoff would be similar to aero
tow.
A drum, tension feedback, and rewind unit in the back of a full size
pickup truck..

Rodger Reinhart

[sisu1a]

On Jul 24, 10:58*am, Rodger > wrote:
> Hello All
>
> Has there been any experimentation with a payout winch similar to what
> is used for hang glider launches.
> It seems that the acceleration on takeoff would be similar to aero
> tow.
> A drum, tension feedback, and rewind unit in the back of a full size
> pickup truck..
>
> Rodger Reinhart

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-908215910068343289&hl=en

and http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1565675948480774460&hl=en

and http://www.nwskysports.com/videos/winch%20launch.mov

[bildan]

On Jul 24, 1:04*am, Peter Scholz >
wrote:
> bildan wrote:
> > On Jul 21, 4:12 pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> >> Perhaps the way to go is just buy a good used winch from a European
> >> club. What was the offered price again for that old Tost winch at
> >> Lasham?
>
> > My German contacts recommend against buying an old Tost winch since
> > the parts they are made from are no longer available. *
> > ...
>
> This is not true. All parts are available, seehttp://tost-startwinden.de/or contact Tost >.
>
> There are a few hundred Tost winches operating here in Germany, and
> other countries, and I have heard of no difficulties getting spare
> parts, or even drawings if required.
>
> --
> Peter Scholz
> ASW 24 JEB

I am familiar with the Tost winch site. What they specifically say is
this:

"There are more than 5000 items available in our warehouse. Most of
the spare parts for our launching winches, from the year of
manufacture 1980 up, are in stock constantly. If nevertheless a spare
part is not available at once we'll do everything in order to get it
for you or to manufacture it, if possible."

Most of the old Tost winches were built before 1980 (Some from the
1950's) using a modified fully floating axle from a German Army
truck. I'm told the axle and parts for it are very difficult to get
and expensive when you can find them.

However, I'm not the definitive source. I'd suggest contacting
someone in Germany for an independent, informed opinion before buying
one.

[bildan]

On Jul 24, 12:30*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> I assume that Bill's comment is intended to be yet another thinly veiled
> attack on Skylaunch, who make an excellent winch! There is no hard
> evidence that rollers are any less Dyneema friendly, and in any case
> Skylaunch can supply and fit swivelling pulleys if you think they are
> better. Our new Skylaunch winches at Lasham are so fitted.
>
> Again the rollers he is talking about are as fitted to antiquated US
> Gerhlein winches, and his Ford Model T analogy is about right.
>
> The guillotine issue is more relevant. For some reason hardened steel
> blades that will chop steel cable many times are instantly blunted when
> used on any type of UHMWPE synthetic cable. I believe the fix is to
> replace the anvil with a bronze component. So much for modern materials
> and technology!
>
> Derek Copeland
>
> At 23:39 23 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
> >On Jul 23, 12:45=A0am, Derek Copeland *wrote:
> >> Chris,
>
> >> Nothing special required, except that the rollers or pulleys should be
> >> smoothed out and polished if they have been used for steel cable. Some
> >> types of drum may need to be reinforced as Dyneema can slip and
> tighten
> >o=
> >n
> >> the drum to the extent that it get crushed.
>
> >More spectacularly bad advice from Del C.
>
> >Smoothing and polishing rollers will NOT work since the rope slides in
> >a helical path on the roller if the wrap angle is not exactly at right
> >angles to the roller. *All roller designs used with 'plastic rope'
> >show rings of melted plastic when used with Plasma Rope. *The rope
> >itself shows severe damage from melting. *Using rollers with Plasma
> >Rope is an expensive mistake
>
> >Plasma Rope (Spectra/Dyneema) should have swiveling pulleys with
> >specific pulley groove geometry. *I have a tested design for fairlead
> >pulleys with a Plasma specific guillotine that I'll let anybody use to
> >make their own. *E-mail me and I'll send the drawings.

It wasn't meant to be 'thinly veiled'.

Actually Derek's inexperience is showing. There is a difference
between guillotines for steel and Spectra/Dyneema in that the shearing
cutters used with steel won't cut "plastic rope". It doesn't 'blunt'
the blade, it just pushes them apart and defeats the cutting attempt.
Spectra/Dyneema is a lot tougher than steel.

You need a more aggressive guillotine with a "chopping" action that
forces a sharp steel blade against an anvil instead of a shearing
action. A steel edge cutting against a brass block works well as does
a plastic block which saves the edge.

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Bill,

I must admit that I have only ever seen one guillotine in pieces to carry
out the modification, and that was for a Tost winch when when we carried
out trials on UHMWPE synthetic cable. This is a spring loaded system in a
tube, activated by a lever in the cab pulling out a pin via a Bowden
cable. The steel fixed bottom element was replaced by a bronze equivalent
and that was it.

I should point out that our winches are maintained by professional staff
at Lasham, so I don't get much involved in that side of things. I am an
amateur gliding instructor and a winch driver, with 28 years of wire
launching experience.

Have you ever driven or had a launch on a Skylaunch winch? No, I thought
not! I think that you would be impressed if you did. It is easy to drive
and gives smooth, consistent and correctly speeded launches, unlike
anything I had launched on before. If it as bad as you keep claiming, why
have so many major European gliding clubs bought them, often in preference
to their own National products?

Usual disclaimers. I have no financial or other connections to Skylaunch,
other than being a satisfied user of their products.

Derek Copeland


At 19:38 24 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>On Jul 24, 12:30=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:
>> I assume that Bill's comment is intended to be yet another thinly
veiled
>> attack on Skylaunch, who make an excellent winch! There is no hard
>> evidence that rollers are any less Dyneema friendly, and in any case
>> Skylaunch can supply and fit swivelling pulleys if you think they are
>> better. Our new Skylaunch winches at Lasham are so fitted.
>>
>> Again the rollers he is talking about are as fitted to antiquated US
>> Gerhlein winches, and his Ford Model T analogy is about right.
>>
>> The guillotine issue is more relevant. For some reason hardened steel
>> blades that will chop steel cable many times are instantly blunted
when
>> used on any type of UHMWPE synthetic cable. I believe the fix is to
>> replace the anvil with a bronze component. So much for modern
materials
>> and technology!
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>>
>> At 23:39 23 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>>
>> >On Jul 23, 12:45=3DA0am, Derek Copeland =A0wrote:
>> >> Chris,
>>
>> >> Nothing special required, except that the rollers or pulleys should
>be
>> >> smoothed out and polished if they have been used for steel cable.
>Some
>> >> types of drum may need to be reinforced as Dyneema can slip and
>> tighten
>> >o=3D
>> >n
>> >> the drum to the extent that it get crushed.
>>
>> >More spectacularly bad advice from Del C.
>>
>> >Smoothing and polishing rollers will NOT work since the rope slides
in
>> >a helical path on the roller if the wrap angle is not exactly at
right
>> >angles to the roller. =A0All roller designs used with 'plastic
rope'
>> >show rings of melted plastic when used with Plasma Rope. =A0The rope
>> >itself shows severe damage from melting. =A0Using rollers with Plasma
>> >Rope is an expensive mistake
>>
>> >Plasma Rope (Spectra/Dyneema) should have swiveling pulleys with
>> >specific pulley groove geometry. =A0I have a tested design for
fairlead
>> >pulleys with a Plasma specific guillotine that I'll let anybody use
to
>> >make their own. =A0E-mail me and I'll send the drawings.
>
>It wasn't meant to be 'thinly veiled'.
>
>Actually Derek's inexperience is showing. There is a difference
>between guillotines for steel and Spectra/Dyneema in that the shearing
>cutters used with steel won't cut "plastic rope". It doesn't
'blunt'
>the blade, it just pushes them apart and defeats the cutting attempt.
>Spectra/Dyneema is a lot tougher than steel.
>
>You need a more aggressive guillotine with a "chopping" action that
>forces a sharp steel blade against an anvil instead of a shearing
>action. A steel edge cutting against a brass block works well as does
>a plastic block which saves the edge.
>

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 01:45 21 July 2009, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 18:15 20 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
>>Constant tension during the climb phase is exactly what you want.
>>Read George Moore's article in this month's Soaring Magazine.
Tension
>>telemetry is a great idea - someone please build it.
>>
>>A kite string or a winch rope forms a catenary arc due to it's weight
>>and air drag. The tension on each end of a catenary arc is the same
>>except for the rope/string weight difference if the ends are at
>>different heights. If 2000 feet of Plasma rope were hanging
>>vertically the tension due to its weight is zero at the bottom and
>>only 20 pounds at the top - that difference doesn't matter much.
>
>
>I think we have established two facts, firstly that you have absolutely
no
>first hand knowledge of the operation of a Skylaunch winch so I think
your
>opinions on that subject can be safely ignored. I have driven many types
>of winch, for many hours, including the Skylaunch and I know that it
works
>extremely well with none of the "faults" that you imagine it has. It
is
>not the best winch I have ever driven but it is very close and the MVG
is
>not an affordable option for most UK clubs. The MVG is also too
>complicated for use at most clubs, too many advance features.
>
>Now consider the following case. A glider at the top of the launch, the
>cable is exerting a force on the release hook of x pounds which you deem
>to be tension. This force is due almost entirely to the weight of the
>steel cable and is considerable. At the winch end the cable is being
>retrieved very slowly or not at all, the measurable tension at that end
is
>close to or maybe even equal to 0. The force exerted at either end of
the
>cable is totally different, that is the extreme case of course but, as a
>glider climbs the "tension" or force exerted on the release will
>increase as the glider takes more of the weight of the cable. Please
>explain how this increase can be measured or taken into account at the
>winch end.
>
>Please do not evade the question by discussing plastic rope.
>
>All the winches I have ever driven or observed have had something which
>takes care of the changing circumstances very well, we call that
something
>a driver and a skilled driver does not need gizzmos to give a good
launch.
>I am fast coming to the conclusion that the real problem here is that
you
>are actually afraid of winch launching and if that is the case, don't
do
>it.

I note that you appear to have no answer to my questions, I can only
conclude that you don't know the answer

[Brian Whatcott]

Del C wrote:
.....
> Don't worry Peter! Bill thinks that anything not made in the USA is no
> good. He is from the country that came up with the supposedly self
> defending B17 Bomber that your lot shot down in droves in WW2, at least
> until the long range Mustang fighters with UK designed Merlin engines came
> along to defend them. ....
> Derek Copeland


This sentiment is unbecoming a UK citizen whose liberty depended on the
War materiel support and post-war aid that the USA provided Europe, and
in particular Britain. If Americans sometimes talk like 19th century
British Imperialists, it is because they too have drunk deep of the same
heady wine - world dominion - but only for a while.....

Even talk of war-planes can easily turn to one's disadvantage:
try comparing the Mustang, from first drawing, to first proto in six
months - compared with say the Spitfire assembly at Castle Bromwich
satellite factory from parts - first product out of the hangar took
TWELVE months....

Brian W

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

I should point out that Hitler gave up trying to invade the UK after the
Battle of Britain in 1940 and tried to invade Russia instead, so we at
least achieved a draw against Nazi Germany before the US even entered the
war.

What we would not have been able to do without US help was to re-invade
Europe in 1944, so the French have much more to thank you and us for, not
that they generally show it!

The Spitfire was initially built at Supermarine in Southampton and was
developed before the war started, so less urgency in peacetime. It also
incorporated a lot of new technology for the time and was somewhat more
complicated to build than the Hawker Hurricane, which was available in
much greater numbers at the time of the Battle of Britain, and in reality
shot down far more German aircraft than the Spitfire.

The Castle Bromwich works near Birmingham involved building an entire new
factory, so it is not surprising that it took twelve months to come on
line. See:

http://tinyurl.com/5pfk6f

Derek Copeland



At 00:20 25 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>Del C wrote:
>.....
>> Don't worry Peter! Bill thinks that anything not made in the USA is
no
>> good. He is from the country that came up with the supposedly self
>> defending B17 Bomber that your lot shot down in droves in WW2, at
least
>> until the long range Mustang fighters with UK designed Merlin engines
>came
>> along to defend them. ....
>> Derek Copeland
>
>
>This sentiment is unbecoming a UK citizen whose liberty depended on the
>War materiel support and post-war aid that the USA provided Europe, and

>in particular Britain. If Americans sometimes talk like 19th century
>British Imperialists, it is because they too have drunk deep of the same

>heady wine - world dominion - but only for a while.....
>
> Even talk of war-planes can easily turn to one's disadvantage:
>try comparing the Mustang, from first drawing, to first proto in six
>months - compared with say the Spitfire assembly at Castle Bromwich
>satellite factory from parts - first product out of the hangar took
>TWELVE months....
>
>Brian W
>

[Peter Hardman]

I should also be remembered that the Mustang was originally built to meet a
UK aircraft requirement specification, and was not accepted for that, as it
was deemed to be grossly under powered.

It didn't become a succesful aircraft until someone (be they American or
British) decided to fit a BRITISH ROLLS ROYCE MERLIN engine. It then became
the most succesful piston engined fighter of the war.

Cheres
Pete h

At 05:45 25 July 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
>I should point out that Hitler gave up trying to invade the UK after the
>Battle of Britain in 1940 and tried to invade Russia instead, so we at
>least achieved a draw against Nazi Germany before the US even entered
the
>war.
>
>What we would not have been able to do without US help was to re-invade
>Europe in 1944, so the French have much more to thank you and us for,
not
>that they generally show it!
>
>The Spitfire was initially built at Supermarine in Southampton and was
>developed before the war started, so less urgency in peacetime. It also
>incorporated a lot of new technology for the time and was somewhat more
>complicated to build than the Hawker Hurricane, which was available in
>much greater numbers at the time of the Battle of Britain, and in
reality
>shot down far more German aircraft than the Spitfire.
>
>The Castle Bromwich works near Birmingham involved building an entire
new
>factory, so it is not surprising that it took twelve months to come on
>line. See:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/5pfk6f
>
>Derek Copeland
>
>
>
>At 00:20 25 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>>Del C wrote:
>>.....
>>> Don't worry Peter! Bill thinks that anything not made in the USA is
>no
>>> good. He is from the country that came up with the supposedly self
>>> defending B17 Bomber that your lot shot down in droves in WW2, at
>least
>>> until the long range Mustang fighters with UK designed Merlin engines
>>came
>>> along to defend them. ....
>>> Derek Copeland
>>
>>
>>This sentiment is unbecoming a UK citizen whose liberty depended on the

>>War materiel support and post-war aid that the USA provided Europe,
and
>
>>in particular Britain. If Americans sometimes talk like 19th century
>>British Imperialists, it is because they too have drunk deep of the
same
>
>>heady wine - world dominion - but only for a while.....
>>
>> Even talk of war-planes can easily turn to one's disadvantage:
>>try comparing the Mustang, from first drawing, to first proto in six
>>months - compared with say the Spitfire assembly at Castle Bromwich
>>satellite factory from parts - first product out of the hangar took
>>TWELVE months....
>>
>>Brian W
>>
>

[vontresc]

On Jul 25, 4:30*am, Peter Hardman > wrote:
> I should also be remembered that the Mustang was originally built to meet a
> UK aircraft requirement specification, and was not accepted for that, as it
> was deemed to be grossly under powered.
>
> *It didn't become a succesful aircraft until someone (be they American or
> British) decided to fit a BRITISH ROLLS ROYCE MERLIN engine. It then became
> the most succesful piston engined fighter of the war.
>
> Cheres
> Pete h
>
> At 05:45 25 July 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >I should point out that Hitler gave up trying to invade the UK after the
> >Battle of Britain in 1940 and tried to invade Russia instead, so we at
> >least achieved a draw against Nazi Germany before the US even entered
> the
> >war.
>
> >What we would not have been able to do without US help was to re-invade
> >Europe in 1944, so the French have much more to thank you and us for,
> not
> >that they generally show it!
>
> >The Spitfire was initially built at Supermarine in Southampton and was
> >developed before the war started, so less urgency in peacetime. It also
> >incorporated a lot of new technology for the time and was somewhat more
> >complicated to build than the Hawker Hurricane, which was available in
> >much greater numbers at the time of the Battle of Britain, and in
> reality
> >shot down far more German aircraft than the Spitfire.
>
> >The Castle Bromwich works near Birmingham involved building an entire
> new
> >factory, so it is not surprising that it took twelve months to come on
> >line. See:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/5pfk6f
>
> >Derek Copeland
>
> >At 00:20 25 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
> >>Del C wrote:
> >>.....
> >>> Don't worry Peter! Bill thinks that anything not made in the USA is
> >no
> >>> good. He is from the country that came up with the supposedly self
> >>> defending B17 Bomber that your lot shot down in droves in WW2, at
> >least
> >>> until the long range Mustang fighters with UK designed Merlin engines
> >>came
> >>> along to defend them. ....
> >>> Derek Copeland
>
> >>This sentiment is unbecoming a UK citizen whose liberty depended on the
> >>War materiel support and *post-war aid that the USA provided Europe,
> and
>
> >>in particular Britain. If Americans sometimes talk like 19th century
> >>British Imperialists, it is because they too have drunk deep of the
> same
>
> >>heady wine - world dominion - but only for a while.....
>
> >> *Even talk of war-planes can easily turn to one's disadvantage:
> >>try comparing the Mustang, from first drawing, to first proto in six
> >>months - compared with say the Spitfire assembly at Castle Bromwich
> >>satellite factory from parts - first product out of the hangar took
> >>TWELVE months....
>
> >>Brian W

Well if British technology is so superior, why do none of your winches
use Rover or British Leyland engines??? :-)

Can we get this ****ing match focused back on winches please?

Pete

[Del C[_2_]]

>
At 12:30 25 July 2009, vontresc wrote:

>Well if British technology is so superior, why do none of your winches
>use Rover or British Leyland engines??? :-)
>
>
Basically because they are too small, due to our Government's punative
taxes on motor fuels, which means we can't afford to run cars with big
gas guzzling engines. 4.2 litre Jaguar engines and 3.5 litre Rover V8
engines have been used in winches in the past, but they are not powerful
enough to launch the modern big heavy glass two-seaters.

Derek Copeland

[Brian Whatcott]

The Spitfire was a fine air defence fighter - flown by young men who
could fly several sorties over the Home Counties, then head out to the
local pubs in the evening, to party.
The Spitfire could not defend the heavy bombers needed to destroy the
German war production effort. It had no legs.This role was meat and
potatoes for the Mustang, once the American troops learned the need for
flying high cover on those long range missions.
Before I provoke even more hollow patriotism of the kind I already see
too often in the US, I had better mention that I worked at Serck in the
Tyseley (Greet) plant that made the Spitfire heat exchangers, and flew
from Biggin where those boys sortied, and raised a glass in the same
pub, and I was a member of the street picnics held all over the country
to celebrate victory long years after hiding with my Mother under the
kitchen table while being bombed, unlike I suppose, any of the
"patriots" currently responding.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


Peter Hardman wrote:
> I should also be remembered that the Mustang was originally built to meet a
> UK aircraft requirement specification, and was not accepted for that, as it
> was deemed to be grossly under powered.
>
> It didn't become a succesful aircraft until someone (be they American or
> British) decided to fit a BRITISH ROLLS ROYCE MERLIN engine. It then became
> the most succesful piston engined fighter of the war.
>
> Cheres
> Pete h
>
> At 05:45 25 July 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
>> I should point out that Hitler gave up trying to invade the UK after the
>> Battle of Britain in 1940 and tried to invade Russia instead, so we at
>> least achieved a draw against Nazi Germany before the US even entered
> the
>> war.
>>
>> What we would not have been able to do without US help was to re-invade
>> Europe in 1944, so the French have much more to thank you and us for,
> not
>> that they generally show it!
>>
>> The Spitfire was initially built at Supermarine in Southampton and was
>> developed before the war started, so less urgency in peacetime. It also
>> incorporated a lot of new technology for the time and was somewhat more
>> complicated to build than the Hawker Hurricane, which was available in
>> much greater numbers at the time of the Battle of Britain, and in
> reality
>> shot down far more German aircraft than the Spitfire.
>>
>> The Castle Bromwich works near Birmingham involved building an entire
> new
>> factory, so it is not surprising that it took twelve months to come on
>> line. See:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/5pfk6f
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>>
>>
>>
>> At 00:20 25 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>>> Del C wrote:
>>> .....
>>>> Don't worry Peter! Bill thinks that anything not made in the USA is
>> no
>>>> good. He is from the country that came up with the supposedly self
>>>> defending B17 Bomber that your lot shot down in droves in WW2, at
>> least
>>>> until the long range Mustang fighters with UK designed Merlin engines
>>> came
>>>> along to defend them. ....
>>>> Derek Copeland
>>>
>>> This sentiment is unbecoming a UK citizen whose liberty depended on the
>
>>> War materiel support and post-war aid that the USA provided Europe,
> and
>>> in particular Britain. If Americans sometimes talk like 19th century
>>> British Imperialists, it is because they too have drunk deep of the
> same
>>> heady wine - world dominion - but only for a while.....
>>>
>>> Even talk of war-planes can easily turn to one's disadvantage:
>>> try comparing the Mustang, from first drawing, to first proto in six
>>> months - compared with say the Spitfire assembly at Castle Bromwich
>>> satellite factory from parts - first product out of the hangar took
>>> TWELVE months....
>>>
>>> Brian W
>>>
OT

[Frank Whiteley]

On Jul 25, 7:15*am, Del C > wrote:
> At 12:30 25 July 2009, vontresc wrote:
>
> >Well if British technology is so superior, why do none of your winches
> >use Rover or British Leyland engines??? :-)
>
> Basically because they are too small, due to our Government's punative
> taxes on motor fuels, which means we can't afford to run cars with big
> gas guzzling engines. 4.2 litre Jaguar engines and 3.5 litre Rover V8
> engines have been used in winches in the past, but they are not powerful
> enough to launch the modern big heavy glass two-seaters.
>
> Derek Copeland

The Rover V8 started as the Buick 215, later modified by Rover. My
old SD1 was quite fast.

Frank Whiteley

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

We Brits get tired of always being airbrushed out of history by Hollywood.
For example there were more British and British Commonwealth (e.g.
Australians, Canadians) troops involved in the D Day landings than US
troops, but you might not have noticed this if you watch 'Saving Private
Ryan' and many other similar movies.

Throughout WW2 we bombed Germany by night without fighter cover, using
bombers such as the Lancaster and the Mosquito, which where less heavily
amoured than a B17, but could carry a much greater weight of bombs as a
result. In fact even the little unarmed twin engined Mosquito bombers made
out of plywood could carry more bombs than a B17. I believe that they
didn't show up very well on radar because of their construction, so they
were probably the original 'stealth bomber'

On entering the European war the USAAF was warned by the RAF that daylight
bombing raids over Germany would be pretty suicidal, as they had already
found out the hard way, but of course the Americans (as usual) thought
they knew best and had better technology. The rest, Schweinfurt etc, is
history!

I have to say however that the US bomber crews who took part in such raids
must have been very brave men, knowing that their tight, straight and level
formations where sitting ducks for German radar predictive flak guns and a
well organised fighter force. It was only towards the end of the war when
the Mustangs shot down many German fighters that the odds became a little
more favourable for them.

Derek Copeland


At 14:14 25 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>The Spitfire was a fine air defence fighter - flown by young men who
>could fly several sorties over the Home Counties, then head out to the
>local pubs in the evening, to party.
>The Spitfire could not defend the heavy bombers needed to destroy the
>German war production effort. It had no legs.This role was meat and
>potatoes for the Mustang, once the American troops learned the need for
>flying high cover on those long range missions.
>Before I provoke even more hollow patriotism of the kind I already see
>too often in the US, I had better mention that I worked at Serck in the
>Tyseley (Greet) plant that made the Spitfire heat exchangers, and flew
>from Biggin where those boys sortied, and raised a glass in the same
>pub, and I was a member of the street picnics held all over the country

>to celebrate victory long years after hiding with my Mother under the
>kitchen table while being bombed, unlike I suppose, any of the
>"patriots" currently responding.
>
>Brian Whatcott Altus OK
>
>
>Peter Hardman wrote:
>> I should also be remembered that the Mustang was originally built to
>meet a
>> UK aircraft requirement specification, and was not accepted for that,
as
>it
>> was deemed to be grossly under powered.
>>
>> It didn't become a succesful aircraft until someone (be they
American
>or
>> British) decided to fit a BRITISH ROLLS ROYCE MERLIN engine. It then
>became
>> the most succesful piston engined fighter of the war.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Pete h
>>

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

We Brits get tired of always being airbrushed out of history by Hollywood.
For example there were more British and British Commonwealth (e.g.
Australians, Canadians) troops involved in the D Day landings than US
troops, but you might not have noticed this if you watch 'Saving Private
Ryan' and many other similar movies.

Throughout WW2 we bombed Germany by night without fighter cover, using
bombers such as the Lancaster and the Mosquito, which where less heavily
amoured than a B17, but could carry a much greater weight of bombs as a
result. In fact even the little unarmed twin engined Mosquito bombers made
out of plywood could carry more bombs than a B17. I believe that they
didn't show up very well on radar because of their construction, so they
were probably the original 'stealth bomber'

On entering the European war the USAAF was warned by the RAF that daylight
bombing raids over Germany would be pretty suicidal, as they had already
found out the hard way, but of course the Americans (as usual) thought
they knew best and had better technology. The rest, Schweinfurt etc, is
history!

I have to say however that the US bomber crews who took part in such raids
must have been very brave men, knowing that their tight, straight and level
formations where sitting ducks for German radar predictive flak guns and a
well organised fighter force. It was only towards the end of the war when
the Mustangs shot down many German fighters that the odds became a little
more favourable for them.

Derek Copeland


At 14:14 25 July 2009, brian whatcott wrote:
>The Spitfire was a fine air defence fighter - flown by young men who
>could fly several sorties over the Home Counties, then head out to the
>local pubs in the evening, to party.
>The Spitfire could not defend the heavy bombers needed to destroy the
>German war production effort. It had no legs.This role was meat and
>potatoes for the Mustang, once the American troops learned the need for
>flying high cover on those long range missions.
>Before I provoke even more hollow patriotism of the kind I already see
>too often in the US, I had better mention that I worked at Serck in the
>Tyseley (Greet) plant that made the Spitfire heat exchangers, and flew
>from Biggin where those boys sortied, and raised a glass in the same
>pub, and I was a member of the street picnics held all over the country

>to celebrate victory long years after hiding with my Mother under the
>kitchen table while being bombed, unlike I suppose, any of the
>"patriots" currently responding.
>
>Brian Whatcott Altus OK
>
>
>Peter Hardman wrote:
>> I should also be remembered that the Mustang was originally built to
>meet a
>> UK aircraft requirement specification, and was not accepted for that,
as
>it
>> was deemed to be grossly under powered.
>>
>> It didn't become a succesful aircraft until someone (be they
American
>or
>> British) decided to fit a BRITISH ROLLS ROYCE MERLIN engine. It then
>became
>> the most succesful piston engined fighter of the war.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Pete h
>>

[sisu1a]

Gentleman, can the (increasingly off subject) WWII discussion please
be moved to:
http://www.ww2f.com/ or
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=43 or ANYWHERE ELSE
besides ras?

Believe it or not, some people are here for honest discussion of
soaring/gliding... and yes- even tension controlled winch launching
whether you understand the physics and merits of it or not.

Respectfully,
-Paul

PS. it took long enough to get rid of those jackasses who kept arguing
about Mustangs vs FW 190's the first time...

[Gene Hilsheimer]

;698970']To all my friends in the United States of America.

You may have got the impression from some recent correspondence on this
site that winch launchings is about as risky as bungey jumping or joining
a Kamikaze squadron!

I have only had time to read a few of the replies to this thread... but after a year of flying with Fenlands Glider Club at RAF Marham - back in the late 80's I ended up with some 120+ winch launches. Now, some 23 years later, I'm back in the cockpit, learning aerotows.

I never felt concerned with any of my winch launches... even my 50ft cable break. And learning to operate the winch after going solo was also an experience I wouldn't give anything for.

I'm happy with my aerotows as they get me a bit higher than any of my winch launches... but from one who has done both, I'd say that I would be happy with either. Both are as safe as the pilot being launched and the launch operator, be it winch or tow plane.

[[email protected]]

China Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co. Ltd engages in designing, manufacturing and marketing all kinds of electric motors. They are mainly suitable for the following applications: smart home application used in smart kitchen and laundry, medical instrument for personal care, smart E-transmission applied in automobile, industry automation applied in telecommunication and a great variety of plastic/metal planetary gearbox in different sizes.
In order to develop the oversea market, we are current seeking new partners around the world to create a bright future together. ZhaoWei is a right choice and excellent partnership with sincere services.

Company: Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co., Ltd
URL: http://www.zwgearbox.com/
Contact: Anny Liu
Tel：+86-755-27322652
Fax：+86-755-27323949

Add: Blk. 18, Longwangmiao Industry Park, Fuyong Tn., Bao’an Dist., Shenzhen 518103, Guangdong, China

[[email protected]]

China Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co. Ltd engages in designing, manufacturing and marketing all kinds of electric motors. They are mainly suitable for the following applications: smart home application used in smart kitchen and laundry, medical instrument for personal care, smart E-transmission applied in automobile, industry automation applied in telecommunication and a great variety of plastic/metal planetary gearbox in different sizes.
In order to develop the oversea market, we are current seeking new partners around the world to create a bright future together. ZhaoWei is a right choice and excellent partnership with sincere services.

Company: Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co., Ltd
URL: http://www.zwgearbox.com/
Contact: Annie Liu
Tel：+86-755-27322652
Fax：+86-755-27323949

Add: Blk. 18, Longwangmiao Industry Park, Fuyong Tn., Bao’an Dist., Shenzhen 518103, Guangdong, China

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 5, 2009 at 3:06:20 AM UTC+1, rlovinggood wrote:
> Not mentioned here is winch launching is fun! What a ride!
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
> PS: LUCAS: Prince of Darkness
>
> Also, why do Brits drink warm beer? They have Lucas refrigerators...

British here, what the **** is Lucas?

[richard wilkening]

Lucas Electronics. British vehicles imported to U.S. in 1960s and early 70s had Lucas Electronic components which gained a reputation as finicky and aggravating.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:10:30 AM UTC-7, Richard Wilkening wrote:
> Lucas Electronics. British vehicles imported to U.S. in 1960s and early 70s had Lucas Electronic components which gained a reputation as finicky and aggravating.


Or more succinctly and current, "British vehicles imported to U.S. .... gained a reputation as finicky and aggravating."

[Bob Kuykendall]

> British here, what the **** is Lucas?

Let me google that for you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lucas+electrics

[waremark]

> > PS: LUCAS: Prince of Darkness
> >

Prince of Darkness because of a probably unjustified ? reputation for headlights failing.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Lucas also had the first intermittent wipers (not by design)
Also the old joke of a patient talking to his cardiologist, "hey Doc, what do you mean 'Lucas Pacemaker'"!?!?

;-)

Yes, raised around 50's and 60's British sports cars.

[TND]

Lucas three position headlamp switch: Off / Dim / Flicker

--

------------------------------
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message are those
of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of their
organisation.

[Dan Marotta]

Hey, now, wait a minute! I had a BSA motorcycle and an MGB and their
electric systems were... Oh, never mind...

On 8/1/2017 6:53 PM, tnd wrote:
> Lucas three position headlamp switch: Off / Dim / Flicker
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

LOL.......then you also had the "positive ground" systems. I knew someone in the 80's that fried a couple battery chargers because they hooked them up backwards.
How they didn't blow a battery up I have no clue.

Wait, this is a soaring forum, how the heck did we segue to Lucas stuff?............
;-)

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 12:28:08 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> LOL.......then you also had the "positive ground" systems. I knew someone in the 80's that fried a couple battery chargers because they hooked them up backwards.
> How they didn't blow a battery up I have no clue.
>
> Wait, this is a soaring forum, how the heck did we segue to Lucas stuff?............
> ;-)

Everybody sing along now, it's the Lucas Song...

Glory, glory Prince of Darkness,
His parts don't work no more!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwHBXQjaCrw

Buddy of mine arrived at the airport on Sunday in a TR-6. Whoa, says I, last time I rode in one of those (1987) it caught on fire!

T8

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

>> Wait, this is a soaring forum, how the heck did we segue to Lucas
>> stuff?............ ;-)
>
> Buddy of mine arrived at the airport on Sunday in a TR-6. Whoa, says I,
> last time I rode in one of those (1987) it caught on fire!

College buddy of mine had a TR-4 for about a year. When it ran it was great
fun, those times it ran w/o drama...which didn't include the time smoke &
flames shot from the steering column while he was merging onto a
heavily-traveled 4-lane interstate, and another time a rear wire wheel
overtook the car (fortunately, at slow speed in a housing development).
Funnily enough, the steering column short "cured itself" after a short,
ignition-off, head-scratching/recovery spell on the shoulder; no previously
extant electrical gremlins ever subsequently noted! Ah, the good-ol' days of
cotton-insulated wiring (already brittle by 1972!).

And, yes, he was reluctant to drive it at night...

Unfortunately, he never took up soaring.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 1:30:49 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:
> >> Wait, this is a soaring forum, how the heck did we segue to Lucas
> >> stuff?............ ;-)
> >
> > Buddy of mine arrived at the airport on Sunday in a TR-6. Whoa, says I,
> > last time I rode in one of those (1987) it caught on fire!
>
> College buddy of mine had a TR-4 for about a year. When it ran it was great
> fun, those times it ran w/o drama...which didn't include the time smoke &
> flames shot from the steering column while he was merging onto a
> heavily-traveled 4-lane interstate, and another time a rear wire wheel
> overtook the car (fortunately, at slow speed in a housing development).
> Funnily enough, the steering column short "cured itself" after a short,
> ignition-off, head-scratching/recovery spell on the shoulder; no previously
> extant electrical gremlins ever subsequently noted! Ah, the good-ol' days of
> cotton-insulated wiring (already brittle by 1972!).
>
> And, yes, he was reluctant to drive it at night...
>
> Unfortunately, he never took up soaring.
>
> Bob W.


While I was in highschool, a friend's dad bought a beat up 1964 TR-4a to tinker with. Us kids learned quite a lot on that old heap. Even at 15 I was impressed by the (Lucas, of course) fusebox on the inside fender well: two big ass 25 amp fuses, open to the elements. One for headlights. One for everything else.

By the time we could keep that thing running, we were pretty good shade tree mechanics!

T8