On pre-flight inspections

[D Ramapriya]

Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

Thanks,

Ramapriya

[Blanche]

D Ramapriya > wrote:
>Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
>inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
>plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ramapriya

Of course -- that's why pre-flight inspections exist!

[John E. Carty]

"D Ramapriya" > wrote in message
...
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya


Leaking brake caliper along with one of the brake linings worn completely
down to the back plate :-)

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:41:07 -0700 (PDT), D Ramapriya
> wrote:

>Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
>inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
>plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ramapriya

yes. carb heat came out way too far in the hand. the butterfly
actuator arm had fatigue failed of the end of the pivot shaft.
(poor design that had lasted 23 years in service)

dont stop doing them. years of successful action does not predict the
onset of a fatigue problem.
Stealth Pilot

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

On Jul 27, 12:41*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya

Yes; a stuffed bear in the carb intake duct. Removed bear, made
flight.
DH

[D Ramapriya]

On Jul 27, 9:14*am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
>
> yes. carb heat came out way too far in the hand. the butterfly
> actuator arm had fatigue failed of the end of the pivot shaft.
> (poor design that had lasted 23 years in service)


If something lasted 23 years of continuous service, poor design it
certainly can't be, what? :)


> years of successful action does not predict the
> onset of a fatigue problem.
> Stealth Pilot


Yep, that's the nature of the fatigue beast. I've known it in my own
industry (construction) for yonks.

Ramapriya

[D Ramapriya]

On Jul 27, 9:46*am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> On Jul 27, 12:41*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
>
> > Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> > inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> > plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Ramapriya
>
> Yes; a stuffed bear in the carb intake duct. Removed bear, made
> flight.
> DH


Probably sucked in during post-landing taxi to the apron from the
previous flight?

Ramapriya

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

On Jul 27, 2:03*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> On Jul 27, 9:46*am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 27, 12:41*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
>
> > > Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> > > inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> > > plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> > > Thanks,
>
> > > Ramapriya
>
> > Yes; a stuffed bear in the carb intake duct. Removed bear, made
> > flight.
> > DH
>
> Probably sucked in during post-landing taxi to the apron from the
> previous flight?
>
> Ramapriya

Nope. Saw the child who did it, although didn't actually see him do
it. He was being carried by his father on the line at one of our show
sites in 1971. Have used the incident in a hundred safety lectures on
pre-flights. I had preflighted the airplane for my next display and
had run across the ramp to grab a coke from a snack wagon. Saw the man
and his kid before I left. Came back and re-preflighted the airplane
again because it was out of my direct sight since I had done the last
one.
Caught the bear in the carb tunnel on the second preflight.
Rule number ONE for display pilots, and for all pilots for that matter
as far as I'm concerned anyway! ANYTIME the airplane is out of your
sight for ANY reason after you have done a preflight inspection, do it
again!
Dudley Henriques

[Ron Garret]

In article
>,
D Ramapriya > wrote:

> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

Depends on what counts as "significant deferrment" and what counts as
"pre-flight". I've been delayed by an hour or so a couple of times, and
had to cancel once because of a rough engine during the run-up (turned
out to be lead fouling on the plugs, but we didn't find that out until
the following day). The delays were caused by a sheared bolt on a wheel
faring, and prop nick that had to be filed down. Those are the ones I
can remember offhand.

rg

[D Ramapriya]

On Jul 27, 10:36*am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
> > Probably sucked in during post-landing taxi to the apron from the
> > previous flight?
>
> > Ramapriya
>
> Nope. Saw the child who did it, although didn't actually see him do
> it. He was being carried by his father on the line at one of our show
> sites in 1971. Have used the incident in a hundred safety lectures on
> pre-flights. I had preflighted the airplane for my next display and
> had run across the ramp to grab a coke from a snack wagon. Saw the man
> and his kid before I left. Came back and re-preflighted the airplane
> again because it was out of my direct sight since I had done the last
> one.
> Caught the bear in the carb tunnel on the second preflight.
> Rule number ONE for display pilots, and for all pilots for that matter
> as far as I'm concerned anyway! ANYTIME the airplane is out of your
> sight for ANY reason after you have done a preflight inspection, do it
> again!
> Dudley Henriques


Nice story :)

If only the two pilots on that fateful Aeroperu 603 had done one, 70
souls + an entire company + a nice 757 would all still have been alive
and functional.

Ramapriya

[D Ramapriya]

On Jul 27, 11:04*am, Ron Garret > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *D Ramapriya > wrote:
>
> Depends on what counts as "significant deferrment" and what counts as
> "pre-flight".

By pre-flight, I meant that bit which you do ere stepping into the
flight deck - I thought there's not much ambiguity on what constitutes
pre-flight? :)

Something like a 2-hour delay, purely as an upshot of what you
discovered during the pre-flight inspection, was what I had in mind by
significant deferrment.


*I've been delayed by an hour or so a couple of times, and
> had to cancel once because of a rough engine during the run-up


Correct me if I'm wrong but engine runups are part of the mechanics'
pre-handover (of the aircraft) routine, right? It's after that that
the aircraft is towed on to the ramp and delivered to the pilots. I've
only ever seen runups being performed near uninhabited areas outside
hangars.

Ramapriya

[a[_3_]]

On Jul 27, 12:41*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya

Well, I found a flat tire, lots of water in the fuel tanks (early M20J
fuel tank caps were hard to put on correctly), bird's nest in the
engine campartment that took a while to remove, pitot tube not hot,
bad nick in the prop. . . That's all that comes to mind with about
2000 hours TT.


Prior to take off I found a broken carb heat cable in an M20C, one mag
not working, Nav radio not working,

I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.

[Ron Wanttaja[_2_]]

D Ramapriya wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

Just last month; found two broken clips on a Goodyear brake disk.
Goodyear wheels have a tendency to lock up when that happens. Found a
crack in the wheel at the rivet for one of the clips.

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/newbrake3.jpg

Swapped to a set of Grove wheels/brakes, working well so far.

Ron Wanttaja

[John Smith]

http://www.powerglidertaifun.de/Diversen/Surprise_eng.htm

[Bob Noel[_2_]]

D Ramapriya wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

yes.

In-op transponder, within the Mode C veil

Wildly fluctuating ammeter - bad master switch

Leaking quickdrain

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:26:02 -0700 (PDT), D Ramapriya
> wrote:

>On Jul 27, 11:04*am, Ron Garret > wrote:
>> In article
>> >,
>> *D Ramapriya > wrote:
>>
>> Depends on what counts as "significant deferrment" and what counts as
>> "pre-flight".
>
>By pre-flight, I meant that bit which you do ere stepping into the
>flight deck - I thought there's not much ambiguity on what constitutes
>pre-flight? :)
>
>Something like a 2-hour delay, purely as an upshot of what you
>discovered during the pre-flight inspection, was what I had in mind by
>significant deferrment.
>
>
> *I've been delayed by an hour or so a couple of times, and
>> had to cancel once because of a rough engine during the run-up
>
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong but engine runups are part of the mechanics'
>pre-handover (of the aircraft) routine, right? It's after that that
>the aircraft is towed on to the ramp and delivered to the pilots. I've
>only ever seen runups being performed near uninhabited areas outside
>hangars.
>
>Ramapriya

this is recreational.aviation.piloting.
just about all of us do our own runnups because we dont employ
mechanics. they are done just before takeoff.

do you do things differently where you live????

Stealth Pilot

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:51:14 -0700, Ron Wanttaja >
wrote:

>D Ramapriya wrote:
>> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
>> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
>> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
>Just last month; found two broken clips on a Goodyear brake disk.
>Goodyear wheels have a tendency to lock up when that happens. Found a
>crack in the wheel at the rivet for one of the clips.
>
>http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/newbrake3.jpg
>
>Swapped to a set of Grove wheels/brakes, working well so far.
>
>Ron Wanttaja

those JATO bottles are hell on brakes :-)

Stealth Pilot

[Harald T]

found cracks in prop and decided a no-go.

2 days ago our club suffered a propstrike due to a lost frontwheel during
departure (DV-20). question is: was preflight-check carried out properly?

H.T.

[Eric]

"D Ramapriya" > wrote in message
...
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya
Well this is probably a bit OT since I was a student at the time, but it's a funny story...

On the 172 I flew most of the time, I think some rocket scientist A&P had replaced the door hinge
pins with nails. So one day we were doing our preflight, me on the left side of the airplane and my
instructor on the right side. I happened to look at the door hinge, noticed the pins were almost
worn through, and mentioned it to him (I was concerned the door could come off in flight). Just as
he was about to start berating me for being paranoid (slight exaggeration), he opened the door on
his side and... it fell off!

Flight canceled. :^)

Eric Law

[Mike Ash]

In article
>,
D Ramapriya > wrote:

> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

Unlike so many of these other posters I've yet to have something like
this happen to me, but with only 120 hours and about 180 flights under
my belt, it's probably just a matter of time.

The worst things I've ever found during a pre-flight of a plane I
intended to fly have been minor things like spider web spun in a total
energy probe port, low tire pressure, etc.

The worst thing I ever found, pre-flight, not on my aircraft, was
disconnected ailerons. I noticed that both ailerons were down, and went
over to ask if that was how they were supposed to be. The owner said no,
connected them, and thanked me profusely. We're now good friends.

The worst equipment problem I've ever had, which came about on the
ground but which I really could not have reasonably found during a
pre-flight inspection, was a pitot tube probe that was not fully
inserted (my fault) which resulted in the ASI not working, which in turn
nearly resulted in landing short. Since the difference between fully
inserted and partially inserted is only about one inch, it's not
something I can really verify. I could try to push it in further, I
suppose, but I can push it in correctly at the beginning of the day in
the first place, which is what I make absolutely sure that I do now.

Wonder what items I'll be listing off when I hit 1000 hours....

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[Dave Doe]

In article <27c00ba5-0fd1-4c1a-8b46-0240e2afe90d@
32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, says...
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

While a student pilot, Tomahawk fuel selector valve broken/faulty -
leaked fuel onto the inside of the engine cowl.

But... didn't pick it up during pre-flight (valve worked OK in the off
position, which it was "parked" in). Noted it in the cabin, very strong
fuel smell after startup. Shutdown and re-inspected the engine, fuel
was visibly leaking in the ON position (not sure what side/tank was
selected, IIRC the Tomahawk has a left/right/off (no both?)).

Reported it and then carried on in a different Tramahawk.

--
Duncan

[vaughn[_2_]]

"D Ramapriya" > wrote in message
...
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether?

One day I had pulled a glider out to the flight line and completed my
pre-flight, only to find that the tow pilot was taking a bathroom break.
Just to kill time, I wandered over to the tow plane and gave it a casual
once-over. To my shock, I discovered that one of the struts on the
horizontal stabilizer was broken loose from its fuselage attachment. That
plane's next flight might have been its last!

Needless to day, there were no more tows that day.

Vaughn

[vaughn[_2_]]

"a" > wrote in message
...

>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.

I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight with
the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson: Some folks
fly flat-footed.

Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway with
flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good reason
to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after you do a
crappy preflight.

Vaughn

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

On Jul 27, 3:13*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> On Jul 27, 10:36*am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Probably sucked in during post-landing taxi to the apron from the
> > > previous flight?
>
> > > Ramapriya
>
> > Nope. Saw the child who did it, although didn't actually see him do
> > it. He was being carried by his father on the line at one of our show
> > sites in 1971. Have used the incident in a hundred safety lectures on
> > pre-flights. I had preflighted the airplane for my next display and
> > had run across the ramp to grab a coke from a snack wagon. Saw the man
> > and his kid before I left. Came back and re-preflighted the airplane
> > again because it was out of my direct sight since I had done the last
> > one.
> > Caught the bear in the carb tunnel on the second preflight.
> > Rule number ONE for display pilots, and for all pilots for that matter
> > as far as I'm concerned anyway! ANYTIME the airplane is out of your
> > sight for ANY reason after you have done a preflight inspection, do it
> > again!
> > Dudley Henriques
>
> Nice story :)
>
> If only the two pilots on that fateful Aeroperu 603 had done one, 70
> souls + an entire company + a nice 757 would all still have been alive
> and functional.
>
> Ramapriya

When it comes to flying and one's attitude about flying, a pilot is
well advised to remember the immortal words of race driver Tom Sneva,
who after hitting the wall at Indy at 200 plus, was asked by a
reporter as he was walking back to his pit if he would like to be able
to enter that turn again and do it right the next time.
Sneva looked at the man and said,
"If if's and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry
Christmas"
DH

[D Ramapriya]

On Jul 27, 3:21*pm, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
>
> >Correct me if I'm wrong but engine runups are part of the mechanics'
> >pre-handover (of the aircraft) routine, right? It's after that that
> >the aircraft is towed on to the ramp and delivered to the pilots. I've
> >only ever seen runups being performed near uninhabited areas outside
> >hangars.
>
> >Ramapriya
>
> this is recreational.aviation.piloting.
> just about all of us do our own runnups because we dont employ
> mechanics. they are done just before takeoff.
>
> do you do things differently where you live????
>
> Stealth Pilot


I guess I got my wires crossed in a way, as a pilot friend kindly
pointed out to me in private :\

I was thinking of the everyday scene that I see en route home, in the
Emirates hangars at a spot circa here http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.2653253&lon=55.3398943&z=17&l=0&m=b
where some aircraft's engines get runup every other day by mechanics
standing around.

Ramapriya

[D Ramapriya]

On Jul 27, 4:47*pm, "vaughn" >
wrote:
>
> One day I had pulled a glider out to the flight line and completed my
> pre-flight, only to find that the tow pilot was taking a bathroom break.
> Just to kill time, I wandered over to the tow plane and gave it a casual
> once-over. *To my shock, I discovered that one of the struts on the
> horizontal stabilizer was broken loose from its fuselage attachment. *That
> plane's next flight might have been its last!


This one made my day, Vaughan (or is it spelt Vaugn?). When I began
the thread, I thought people would've noticed in their pre-flights
issues ranging from the minor to semi-major but nothing potentially
catastrophic. This one though really looks like it'd have been
curtains. Harald's too, of course.

Thanks for the story!

Ramapriya

[Ron Garret]

In article
>,
D Ramapriya > wrote:

> On Jul 27, 3:21*pm, Stealth Pilot >
> wrote:
> >
> > >Correct me if I'm wrong but engine runups are part of the mechanics'
> > >pre-handover (of the aircraft) routine, right? It's after that that
> > >the aircraft is towed on to the ramp and delivered to the pilots. I've
> > >only ever seen runups being performed near uninhabited areas outside
> > >hangars.
> >
> > >Ramapriya
> >
> > this is recreational.aviation.piloting.
> > just about all of us do our own runnups because we dont employ
> > mechanics. they are done just before takeoff.
> >
> > do you do things differently where you live????
> >
> > Stealth Pilot
>
>
> I guess I got my wires crossed in a way, as a pilot friend kindly
> pointed out to me in private :\
>
> I was thinking of the everyday scene that I see en route home, in the
> Emirates hangars

That is indeed a very different world.

rg

[Peter Dohm]

"vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "a" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
>
> I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
> with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson: Some
> folks fly flat-footed.
>
> Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
> with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good
> reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after
> you do a crappy preflight.
>
> Vaughn
>
>
I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky timing
and the good samaritan, there was no damage.

On another occassion I saw one of the twin engine air taxis, I don't recall
whether it was a Navajo or a C402, pull away with a rudder lock still in
place. There was no radio available and no way to get a motor vehicle onto
the ramp quickly enough; but the tower had a listed telephone number on that
field, so I was able to call them before he got to the runway.

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

"Dave Doe" > wrote in message
...
> In article <27c00ba5-0fd1-4c1a-8b46-0240e2afe90d@
> 32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, says...
>> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
>> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
>> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> While a student pilot, Tomahawk fuel selector valve broken/faulty -
> leaked fuel onto the inside of the engine cowl.
>
> But... didn't pick it up during pre-flight (valve worked OK in the off
> position, which it was "parked" in). Noted it in the cabin, very strong
> fuel smell after startup. Shutdown and re-inspected the engine, fuel
> was visibly leaking in the ON position (not sure what side/tank was
> selected, IIRC the Tomahawk has a left/right/off (no both?)).
>
> Reported it and then carried on in a different Tramahawk.
>
> --
> Duncan

You're right, there is no "both" position.

Peter

[jan olieslagers[_2_]]

D Ramapriya schreef:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

-) two springs missing that should have held exhaust pipes together.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) fatigue cracks in a bracket that hold the oil cooler.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) oil cooler still partially covered for the winter cold on a sunny day
in May. instructor judged we could fly, though

So no, I never was significantly delayed in my 40 or so hours of
tuition, but problems do show up.
KA

[Peter Dohm]

"D Ramapriya" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 3:21 pm, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:
>
> >Correct me if I'm wrong but engine runups are part of the mechanics'
> >pre-handover (of the aircraft) routine, right? It's after that that
> >the aircraft is towed on to the ramp and delivered to the pilots. I've
> >only ever seen runups being performed near uninhabited areas outside
> >hangars.
>
> >Ramapriya
>
> this is recreational.aviation.piloting.
> just about all of us do our own runnups because we dont employ
> mechanics. they are done just before takeoff.
>
> do you do things differently where you live????
>
> Stealth Pilot


I guess I got my wires crossed in a way, as a pilot friend kindly
pointed out to me in private :\

I was thinking of the everyday scene that I see en route home, in the
Emirates hangars at a spot circa here
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=25.2653253&lon=55.3398943&z=17&l=0&m=b
where some aircraft's engines get runup every other day by mechanics
standing around.

Ramapriya

-----------------new post begins---------

You appear to have been looking at maintenance runups of large turbojet
powered aircraft, which whould typically be run up following some types of
work having been performed--rather than prior to each flight.

OTOH, propeller driven aircraft, especially those with reciprocating engines
and magneto ignition, are usually run up prior to each flight--or at a
minimum prior to the first flight of each day. That may change within the
foreseeable future, as FADEC systems replace the manual mixture controls and
the traditional dual magnetos--so that computer diagnostics can be
continuously available without the need for the pilot to conduct a series of
tests and measurements. Then, only the propeller governor would remain on
those aircraft with neither fixed pitch propellers nor single lever engine
controls.

Peter

[Gezellig]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:04:45 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:

> Depends on what counts as "significant deferrment" and what counts as
> "pre-flight".

Which begs this question.

How bad does a wood prop have to be to cancel a flight? I was going to
take a flight in a DA20 which has a twin blade Sensenich W69EK7-63 wood
propeller. On pre-flight, the prop was chipped in several places, no
runs but then its painted or enameled white.

http://www.controller.com/images/Controller/fullsize/80614723.jpg

The edges were so rough I was concerned about catching a splinter. I
passed.

And you?

[Maxwell[_11_]]

"D Ramapriya" > wrote in message
...
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>

To me personally --

Low oil many times.

Birds nests in the engine compartment at least twice.

Nav lights out at least twice.

Panel lights out at least once.

Loose fuel cap on a high wing once.

Unacceptable propeller damage on a metal prop once.

Most outstanding, years ago during flight training, was all bolts on an
outboard flap hinge were backed off about half way. I though the instructor
was just setting me up until I saw his response.

Worst I have actually witnessed --

Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.


There was another story in flying magazine many years ago about someone
hired to return a repossessed aircraft from a near by airport. Very cold
morning, he just check the oil and sumps. Clearing the end of the runway at
about 200 ', he reached for the carb heat. Cabin filled once dormant wasps
warmed by the carb heat! Fortunately he had enough presence of mind to
quickly open both windows and flooding the cabin with extremely cold air.
Made it back to the runway without further incident, but it obviously could
have ended much differently.

[Ron Garret]

In article >,
"Peter Dohm" > wrote:

> "vaughn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "a" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
> >>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
> >
> > I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
> > with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson: Some
> > folks fly flat-footed.
> >
> > Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
> > with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good
> > reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after
> > you do a crappy preflight.
> >
> > Vaughn
> >
> >
> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky timing
> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.

Heh, funny you should mention that. I once forgot to remove an orange
cone that the FBO had "helpfully" placed in front of the prop. It's
amazing what a propeller -- even one not moving at full speed -- can do
to an orange cone. That one set me back quite a bit as well.

rg

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:25:04 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:

> In article >,
> "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>
>> "vaughn" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "a" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>>>>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
>>>
>>> I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
>>> with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson: Some
>>> folks fly flat-footed.
>>>
>>> Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
>>> with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good
>>> reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after
>>> you do a crappy preflight.
>>>
>>> Vaughn
>>>
>>>
>> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
>> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky timing
>> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.
>
> Heh, funny you should mention that. I once forgot to remove an orange
> cone that the FBO had "helpfully" placed in front of the prop. It's
> amazing what a propeller -- even one not moving at full speed -- can do
> to an orange cone. That one set me back quite a bit as well.
>
> rg

Are cones expensive or are your poor?

Franklin

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Maxwell wrote:

> Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
> the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
> about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
> take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
> at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
> high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
> broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.

The guilt you should feel for not stopping both of them. What a cad you
are.

Franklin

[Mike Ash]

In article >,
Gezellig > wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:04:45 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>
> > Depends on what counts as "significant deferrment" and what counts as
> > "pre-flight".
>
> Which begs this question.
>
> How bad does a wood prop have to be to cancel a flight? I was going to
> take a flight in a DA20 which has a twin blade Sensenich W69EK7-63 wood
> propeller. On pre-flight, the prop was chipped in several places, no
> runs but then its painted or enameled white.
>
> http://www.controller.com/images/Controller/fullsize/80614723.jpg
>
> The edges were so rough I was concerned about catching a splinter. I
> passed.
>
> And you?

I'm not a propellor sort of guy, but rough enough to catch a splinter
would be a definite no-go for me! Being that messed up sounds like a
potential structural problem to me. I'd bet that it's *probably* just
cosmetic, but I hate to bet on probablies. Having a blade suddenly fail
would ruin your whole day....

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[BT]

"parking" brake on a Cessna 172 came out in my hand
"bad mag check", as in the engine would not even run on one mag.. it was
totally dead, that has happened more than once on various aircraft.
"a funny noise" in the full deflection of the elevator, found a screw that
was too long had been used to anchor an inspection panel and the lengthy end
was rubbing on the trim spring

just to name a few

"D Ramapriya" > wrote in message
...
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya

[Dave[_19_]]

That would be a pass for me!

I would stop right there......

For a friend here.... he passed on 3 spinner cracks on a rental 172.

One crack was 1 1/2 in long.

They (others) continued to fly the aircraft for another week before
the spinner was removed

Dave





..

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:01:33 -0400, Gezellig >
wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:04:45 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>
>> Depends on what counts as "significant deferrment" and what counts as
>> "pre-flight".
>
>Which begs this question.
>
>How bad does a wood prop have to be to cancel a flight? I was going to
>take a flight in a DA20 which has a twin blade Sensenich W69EK7-63 wood
>propeller. On pre-flight, the prop was chipped in several places, no
>runs but then its painted or enameled white.
>
>http://www.controller.com/images/Controller/fullsize/80614723.jpg
>
>The edges were so rough I was concerned about catching a splinter. I
>passed.
>
>And you?

[Dave[_22_]]

On Jul 27, 12:41*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya

Did the usual walk-around and found nothing amiss. Then fired up the
engine only to see the tach come up, then drop back to zero (engine
running).
It was more than just a bad tach - the engine was toast (making lots
of metal). Not really unexpected, as it was suspect when we bought the
plane
about a year earlier (and figured into the purchase price). Replaced
it with a reman - which has proven to be a good decision.

Dave

[BeechSundowner]

On Jul 26, 11:41*pm, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya

Rubbing noise when checking aileron = interconnect spring came off -
canceled flight
Bad mag during runup couldn't clear - canceled flight

[Dave Doe]

In article >, lefty133
@bellsouth.net says...
> "vaughn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "a" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
> >>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
> >
> > I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
> > with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson: Some
> > folks fly flat-footed.
> >
> > Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
> > with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good
> > reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after
> > you do a crappy preflight.
> >
> > Vaughn
> >
> >
> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky timing
> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.

How on earth did your pre-flight (spin the prop over?) not catch that
one! :)

--
Duncan

[Gezellig]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:39:29 -0400, Mike Ash wrote:

> In article >,
> Gezellig > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:04:45 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>>
>>> Depends on what counts as "significant deferrment" and what counts as
>>> "pre-flight".
>>
>> Which begs this question.
>>
>> How bad does a wood prop have to be to cancel a flight? I was going to
>> take a flight in a DA20 which has a twin blade Sensenich W69EK7-63 wood
>> propeller. On pre-flight, the prop was chipped in several places, no
>> runs but then its painted or enameled white.
>>
>> http://www.controller.com/images/Controller/fullsize/80614723.jpg
>>
>> The edges were so rough I was concerned about catching a splinter. I
>> passed.
>>
>> And you?
>
> I'm not a propellor sort of guy, but rough enough to catch a splinter
> would be a definite no-go for me! Being that messed up sounds like a
> potential structural problem to me. I'd bet that it's *probably* just
> cosmetic, but I hate to bet on probablies. Having a blade suddenly fail
> would ruin your whole day....


Dave added:

> That would be a pass for me! I would stop right there......

> For a friend here.... he passed on 3 spinner cracks on a rental 172.

>One crack was 1 1/2 in long.

> They (others) continued to fly the aircraft for another week before
> the spinner was removed

> Dave

Thanks, guys, I was really shocked as the local CFI had no problemo with
this prop which was on a student trainer.

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:48:00 +1200, Dave Doe wrote:

> In article >, lefty133
> @bellsouth.net says...
>> "vaughn" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "a" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>>>>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
>>>
>>> I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
>>> with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson: Some
>>> folks fly flat-footed.
>>>
>>> Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
>>> with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good
>>> reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after
>>> you do a crappy preflight.
>>>
>>> Vaughn
>>>
>>>
>> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
>> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky timing
>> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.
>
> How on earth did your pre-flight (spin the prop over?) not catch that
> one! :)

It is obvious that Vaughn is very inexperienced.

[Ron Garret]

In article >,
Franklin <"Franklin >> wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:25:04 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> >
> >> "vaughn" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>>
> >>> "a" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>>>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
> >>>>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
> >>>
> >>> I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
> >>> with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson:
> >>> Some
> >>> folks fly flat-footed.
> >>>
> >>> Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
> >>> with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good
> >>> reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after
> >>> you do a crappy preflight.
> >>>
> >>> Vaughn
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
> >> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky
> >> timing
> >> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.
> >
> > Heh, funny you should mention that. I once forgot to remove an orange
> > cone that the FBO had "helpfully" placed in front of the prop. It's
> > amazing what a propeller -- even one not moving at full speed -- can do
> > to an orange cone. That one set me back quite a bit as well.
> >
> > rg
>
> Are cones expensive or are your poor?
>
> Franklin

Cones are cheap, but engine rebuilds after a prop strike aren't. (I
was, of course, referring not to money, but to the time it took to
consult with a mechanic to convince myself that a rebuild would not be
necessary.)

rg

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:14:03 -0400, Franklin <"Franklin
>> wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Maxwell wrote:
>
>> Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
>> the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
>> about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
>> take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
>> at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
>> high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
>> broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.
>
>The guilt you should feel for not stopping both of them. What a cad you
>are.
>
>Franklin

franklin you should be ashamed of yourself.
you have no details of the incident other than what maxwell posted so
you are not in a position to judge him.
you have no idea what condition the cable actually was.
if the aircraft was refuelling it made the last flight ok and there is
nothing to say that the pilot may have been correct.

in this world you are free to make your own choices ...and wear the
consequences.
when was the last time you flew an aircraft?

tragic as it was maxwell isnt to blame.

Stealth pilot

[Peter Dohm]

"Dave Doe" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, lefty133
> @bellsouth.net says...
>> "vaughn" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "a" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>> >>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
>> >
>> > I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
>> > with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson:
>> > Some
>> > folks fly flat-footed.
>> >
>> > Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
>> > with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One
>> > good
>> > reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon
>> > after
>> > you do a crappy preflight.
>> >
>> > Vaughn
>> >
>> >
>> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
>> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky
>> timing
>> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.
>
> How on earth did your pre-flight (spin the prop over?) not catch that
> one! :)
>
> --
> Duncan

It was a bit more than 25 years ago and I've forgotten the bit of trivia
that led to the error, other than the fact that I was only there to exercise
the engine and not to fly; but it was also a good illustration of why
maintenance operations need the same attention to detail and safety as
flight operations.

The cowling shape of the particular aircraft allowed a cable type lock to
remain partially hidden from view, when seated in the left front, and my
solution was to add a bright yellow wrapping with tassels--so that any
repetition would be obvious from inside the cabin and also nearly impossible
to forget on the walkaround.

Peter

[Ross]

D Ramapriya wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya
Yes.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:09:30 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:

> In article >,
> Franklin <"Franklin >> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:25:04 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "vaughn" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "a" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>>>>>>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
>>>>>
>>>>> I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful flight
>>>>> with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson:
>>>>> Some
>>>>> folks fly flat-footed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the taxiway
>>>>> with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One good
>>>>> reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon after
>>>>> you do a crappy preflight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and was
>>>> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky
>>>> timing
>>>> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.
>>>
>>> Heh, funny you should mention that. I once forgot to remove an orange
>>> cone that the FBO had "helpfully" placed in front of the prop. It's
>>> amazing what a propeller -- even one not moving at full speed -- can do
>>> to an orange cone. That one set me back quite a bit as well.
>>>
>>> rg
>>
>> Are cones expensive or are your poor?
>>
>> Franklin
>
> Cones are cheap, but engine rebuilds after a prop strike aren't. (I
> was, of course, referring not to money, but to the time it took to
> consult with a mechanic to convince myself that a rebuild would not be
> necessary.)
>
> rg

Please be more clear for the beginners next time.

Franklin

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:05:39 -0700 (PDT), D Ramapriya wrote:

> On Jul 27, 4:47*pm, "vaughn" >
> wrote:
>>
>> One day I had pulled a glider out to the flight line and completed my
>> pre-flight, only to find that the tow pilot was taking a bathroom break.
>> Just to kill time, I wandered over to the tow plane and gave it a casual
>> once-over. *To my shock, I discovered that one of the struts on the
>> horizontal stabilizer was broken loose from its fuselage attachment. *That
>> plane's next flight might have been its last!
>
> This one made my day, Vaughan (or is it spelt Vaugn?)

Troll fake modesty. You can clearly see his name above.

Franklin

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:50:11 GMT, Stealth Pilot wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:14:03 -0400, Franklin <"Franklin
> >> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Maxwell wrote:
>>
>>> Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
>>> the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
>>> about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
>>> take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
>>> at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
>>> high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
>>> broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.
>>
>>The guilt you should feel for not stopping both of them. What a cad you
>>are.
>>
>>Franklin
>
> franklin you should be ashamed of yourself.
> you have no details of the incident other than what maxwell posted so
> you are not in a position to judge him.
> you have no idea what condition the cable actually was.
> if the aircraft was refuelling it made the last flight ok and there is
> nothing to say that the pilot may have been correct.
>
> in this world you are free to make your own choices ...and wear the
> consequences.
> when was the last time you flew an aircraft?
>
> tragic as it was maxwell isnt to blame.
>
> Stealth pilot

Stealth pilot,

Maxwell's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
complaining about my pointing out his failures.

Why do you?

Franklin

[Peter Dohm]

"Franklin >" <"Franklin > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:09:30 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Franklin <"Franklin >> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:25:04 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article >,
>>>> "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "vaughn" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "a" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>>>>>>>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful
>>>>>> flight
>>>>>> with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson:
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> folks fly flat-footed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the
>>>>>> taxiway
>>>>>> with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon
>>>>>> after
>>>>>> you do a crappy preflight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and
>>>>> was
>>>>> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky
>>>>> timing
>>>>> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.
>>>>
>>>> Heh, funny you should mention that. I once forgot to remove an orange
>>>> cone that the FBO had "helpfully" placed in front of the prop. It's
>>>> amazing what a propeller -- even one not moving at full speed -- can do
>>>> to an orange cone. That one set me back quite a bit as well.
>>>>
>>>> rg
>>>
>>> Are cones expensive or are your poor?
>>>
>>> Franklin
>>
>> Cones are cheap, but engine rebuilds after a prop strike aren't. (I
>> was, of course, referring not to money, but to the time it took to
>> consult with a mechanic to convince myself that a rebuild would not be
>> necessary.)
>>
>> rg
>
> Please be more clear for the beginners next time.
>
> Franklin

It was sufficiently clear to the rest.

[Brian Whatcott]

Ron Garret wrote:
> In article
> >,
> D Ramapriya > wrote:
>
>> On Jul 27, 3:21 pm, Stealth Pilot >
>> wrote:
>>>> Correct me if I'm wrong but engine runups are part of the mechanics'
>>>> pre-handover (of the aircraft) routine, right? /snip/

>> I guess I got my wires crossed in a way, as a pilot friend kindly
>> pointed out to me in private
>>
>> I was thinking of the everyday scene that I see en route home, in the
>> Emirates hangars

Don't feel too bad. It reminded me of commuting in a C150 from Dallas to
Tulsa International weekly, for a year - this was years ago.
When it was time to leave from the ExecAir FBO at Tulsa Intl(where
they treated me EXACTLY like the million dollar jet pilots they also
handled)
the line help asked me more than once if they could run up, and taxi my
C150 into front center for me - as though it was an honor.

They CERTAINLY knew how to treat a customer!

Brian W

[Brian Whatcott]

jan olieslagers wrote:

> -) two springs missing that should have held exhaust pipes together.
> instructor judged we could fly, though
> -) fatigue cracks in a bracket that hold the oil cooler.
> instructor judged we could fly, though
> -) oil cooler still partially covered for the winter cold on a sunny day
> in May. instructor judged we could fly, though
>
> So no, I never was significantly delayed in my 40 or so hours of
> tuition, but problems do show up.
> KA

The press-on instructor approach you mentioned reminded me of student
touch and goes long ago.
After landing, I tried to switch the flaps to up - but they wouldn't
move. I was about to pull the throttle - but the CHIEF instructor said,
let's press on. He tried the fuse - no go - and up we went - at about
150 FPM....

Brian W

[Brian Whatcott]

Gezellig wrote:

> How bad does a wood prop have to be to cancel a flight? I was going to
> take a flight in a DA20 which has a twin blade Sensenich W69EK7-63 wood
> propeller. On pre-flight, the prop was chipped in several places, no
> runs but then its painted or enameled white....

Oh boy, this thread is bringing the memories back - of a low level local
VFR joy ride in the passenger seat - and we heard a pan call on the
local frequency citing engine problems - then straight ahead, and
descending quite fast was a 4 seater - with just HALF a prop slowly
rotating - and down it went - under a power pylon at the edge of a field
- which had us on the edge of our seats - but it rolled to a halt, and
we saw two adults and two kids pile out. We called the home tower with
location and loitered til a police car or ambulance arrived.

It turned out a wood prop had been overtightened by a prestige big name
FBO at Coventry - and the facility lost their prop authorization on the
basis of that screw up.....

Brian W

[Tim[_8_]]

"Franklin >" <"Franklin > wrote in message
...
>
> Stealth pilot,
>
> Maxwell's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
> complaining about my pointing out his failures.
>
> Why do you?
>
> Franklin

No, I didn't feel the need to comment because you're obviously a dumb ass.

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:29:14 -0400, Peter Dohm wrote:

> "Franklin >" <"Franklin > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:09:30 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> Franklin <"Franklin >> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:25:04 -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article >,
>>>>> "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "vaughn" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "a" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I did watch a PA28 do turns around a tiedown once because the PIC
>>>>>>>>didn't untie the left wing before trying to taxi out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I once watched a rental 172 return from an apparently uneventful
>>>>>>> flight
>>>>>>> with the rudder lock still attached to the rudder. Take-home lesson:
>>>>>>> Some
>>>>>>> folks fly flat-footed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, at least twice I have ran down and stopped planes on the
>>>>>>> taxiway
>>>>>>> with flags flying from left-on pitot covers. Take-home lesson: One
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> reason to put flags on them is so someone else can save your bacon
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> you do a crappy preflight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I nearly started an engine with a propeller lock still in place--and
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> fortunate enough to have someone wave my down in time. Due to lucky
>>>>>> timing
>>>>>> and the good samaritan, there was no damage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Heh, funny you should mention that. I once forgot to remove an orange
>>>>> cone that the FBO had "helpfully" placed in front of the prop. It's
>>>>> amazing what a propeller -- even one not moving at full speed -- can do
>>>>> to an orange cone. That one set me back quite a bit as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> rg
>>>>
>>>> Are cones expensive or are your poor?
>>>>
>>>> Franklin
>>>
>>> Cones are cheap, but engine rebuilds after a prop strike aren't. (I
>>> was, of course, referring not to money, but to the time it took to
>>> consult with a mechanic to convince myself that a rebuild would not be
>>> necessary.)
>>>
>>> rg
>>
>> Please be more clear for the beginners next time.
>>
>> Franklin
>
> It was sufficiently clear to the rest.

Which has nothing to do with my remark. Troll on.

Franklin

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:13:50 -0500, Tim wrote:

> "Franklin >" <"Franklin > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Stealth pilot,
>>
>> Maxwell's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
>> complaining about my pointing out his failures.
>>
>> Why do you?
>>
>> Franklin
>
> No, I didn't feel the need to comment because you're obviously a dumb ass.

Maxwell or Tim or Stealth Pilot

I am having trouble keeping up with your multitude of sock puppets.

Could you settle on one and stfu?

Franklin

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:20:18 -0500, Ross wrote:

> D Ramapriya wrote:
>> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
>> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
>> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ramapriya
> Yes.

Ross

Excellent post. I see you have figured out that D. Rampawhatever is a
troll. Good catch.

Franklin

[Brian Whatcott]

Franklin wrote:

> xxxxx's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
> complaining about my pointing out his failures.
>
> Why do you?
>
> Franklin

Dear Anonymous poster signing as "Franklin": DO be a good girl and run
home, won't you? This is where the big boys write.....

Brian W

[Alan Gerber]

D Ramapriya > wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

Landing light inop before night X-C, scrubbed flight.

Failed attitude indicator, scrubbed flight.

Aircraft overdue for annual inspection, scrubbed flight.

Carcass of bird found on leading edge of wing. Had dispatcher remove it,
conducted flight as scheduled.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Franklin[_11_]]

Franklin <"Franklin wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:13:50 -0500, Tim wrote:
>
>> "Franklin >" <"Franklin > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Stealth pilot,
>>>
>>> Maxwell's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
>>> complaining about my pointing out his failures.
>>>
>>> Why do you?
>>>
>>> Franklin
>>
>> No, I didn't feel the need to comment because you're obviously a dumb
>> ass.
>
> Maxwell or Tim or Stealth Pilot
> I am having trouble keeping up with your multitude of sock puppets.
> Could you settle on one and stfu?
>
> Franklin


That sock loves to have have conversations (even arguments) with
himself. He pretends to challenge his own socks. It looks convincing
but don't believe it.

For added confusion he suggests he's me. I guess I'm flattered.

[Franklin[_11_]]

Franklin <"Franklin wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:13:50 -0500, Tim wrote:
>
>> "Franklin >" <"Franklin > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Stealth pilot,
>>>
>>> Maxwell's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
>>> complaining about my pointing out his failures.
>>>
>>> Why do you?
>>>
>>> Franklin
>>
>> No, I didn't feel the need to comment because you're obviously a dumb
>> ass.
>
> Maxwell or Tim or Stealth Pilot
>
> I am having trouble keeping up with your multitude of sock puppets.
>
> Could you settle on one and stfu?
>
> Franklin


How sweet. Two puppets pretending to have an argument and name dropping
me.

Why bother? I don't have a reputation to lose.

[Franklin[_11_]]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:14:03 -0400, Franklin <"Franklin
> >> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Maxwell wrote:
>>
>>> Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while
>>> fueling the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would
>>> make back home, about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay
>>> behind. At about 200' on take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a
>>> complete loop impacting the ground at about a 60 degree angle.
>>> Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee high. Engine buried
>>> about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all broken bones,
>>> struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.
>>
>>The guilt you should feel for not stopping both of them. What a cad
>>you are.
>>
>>Franklin
>
> franklin you should be ashamed of yourself.
> you have no details of the incident other than what maxwell posted so
> you are not in a position to judge him.
> you have no idea what condition the cable actually was.
> if the aircraft was refuelling it made the last flight ok and there is
> nothing to say that the pilot may have been correct.
>
> in this world you are free to make your own choices ...and wear the
> consequences.
> when was the last time you flew an aircraft?
>
> tragic as it was maxwell isnt to blame.
>
> Stealth pilot

Both "Maxwell" and "Franklin >" are both socks by the
same puppeteer. His socks are insulting one another.

I posted something similar to the following to Ramapriya:


-------------- START -------
Please excuse my namesake's behavior. Unfortunately he's a sock who is
antagonising you in the hope that you will retaliate against me. That
sock has a long history and lots of names. He spends his day setting up
elaborate trolls with carefully disguised identities.

(1) In alt.comp.freeware he's well-known as "Bear Bottoms", "Ari", David
W" and literally dozens of other names.

(2) In the aviation groups he's known as Maxwell, Payton Byrd and many
other names which posters here know better than I do.

(3) He hangs out on 1960s/1970s music groups like the Beatles, Zeppelin,
Doors, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and so on.

(4) Unsurprisingly, a k00k like him hangs out on the 2600 and hacking
groups.

Although retired, he still fantasizes about being a pilot or special forces
operative which is why you see a lot of him. The only thing he can fly is
a toy airplane.

His attempts to be irritating:
<http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/a46d34973796b1f6>
<http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/672961a0af8ac7d6>
<http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/5ae56dab596230fa>
<http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/fd54722dd2020e57>
<http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/e522b0bedbe2bb0a>
-------------- END -------

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Franklin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Both "Maxwell" and "Franklin >" are both socks by the
> same puppeteer. His socks are insulting one another.
>
> I posted something similar to the following to Ramapriya:
>
>
> -------------- START -------
> Please excuse my namesake's behavior. Unfortunately he's a sock who is
> antagonising you in the hope that you will retaliate against me. That
> sock has a long history and lots of names. He spends his day setting up
> elaborate trolls with carefully disguised identities.
>
> (1) In alt.comp.freeware he's well-known as "Bear Bottoms", "Ari", David
> W" and literally dozens of other names.
>
> (2) In the aviation groups he's known as Maxwell, Payton Byrd and many
> other names which posters here know better than I do.
>
> (3) He hangs out on 1960s/1970s music groups like the Beatles, Zeppelin,
> Doors, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and so on.
>
> (4) Unsurprisingly, a k00k like him hangs out on the 2600 and hacking
> groups.
>
> Although retired, he still fantasizes about being a pilot or special
> forces
> operative which is why you see a lot of him. The only thing he can fly is
> a toy airplane.
>
> His attempts to be irritating:
> <http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/a46d34973796b1f6>
> <http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/672961a0af8ac7d6>
> <http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/5ae56dab596230fa>
> <http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/fd54722dd2020e57>
> <http://groups.google.ru/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/e522b0bedbe2bb0a>
> -------------- END -------
>

The rest may be true, but I'm Maxwell, and I haven't seen anyone use my name
in several months.

[Mike Ash]

In article
>,
a > wrote:

> In how many places does your pre-landing checklist say 'check gear
> down'? My first time is at the OM inbound or passing the numbers
> downwind, and my last time is in the flare! There's no way to know for
> sure, but I suspect a lot of gear up landings happen after someone
> aborts a landing and flies a tight pattern: a break in the routine.

Of the three gear-up landings I've personally witnessed, at least two
would not have been saved by this. The pilots in both cases believed
fervently that the gear was *already* down, after having failed to
retract the gear beforehand, and then moved the lever to pull the gear
UP as part of their landing checklist. I don't know the circumstances
surrounding the third so I don't know if it also qualifies here or not.

I'm not saying that your multiple checks are bad or anything, in fact
they make a lot of sense to me, but I wonder at how you might also
prevent the "putting it down twice" accident.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[vaughn[_2_]]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
...
>
>My flight begins when the mains leave the runway.

I agree! That is perfectly logical. But if you are flying under USA
rules the definition of "Flight Time" is a bit different. See FAR Part 1.1

Vaughn

[a[_3_]]

On Jul 31, 8:21*pm, Mike Ash > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
> *a > wrote:
> > In how many places does your pre-landing checklist say 'check gear
> > down'? My first time is at the OM inbound or passing the numbers
> > downwind, and my last time is in the flare! There's no way to know for
> > sure, but I suspect a lot of gear up landings happen after someone
> > aborts a landing and flies a tight pattern: a break in the routine.
>
> Of the three gear-up landings I've personally witnessed, at least two
> would not have been saved by this. The pilots in both cases believed
> fervently that the gear was *already* down, after having failed to
> retract the gear beforehand, and then moved the lever to pull the gear
> UP as part of their landing checklist. I don't know the circumstances
> surrounding the third so I don't know if it also qualifies here or not.
>
> I'm not saying that your multiple checks are bad or anything, in fact
> they make a lot of sense to me, but I wonder at how you might also
> prevent the "putting it down twice" accident.
>
> --
> Mike Ash
> Radio Free Earth
> Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

For what it's worth, I learned something back when cars had manual
transmissions. I was taught to never hold the shifter, but to move it
or 'slap' it in the right direction with an an open hand. On my
Mooney, the gear switch looks like a wheel, it would be easy to grasp
it -- I never do. Down means pushing it down with my finger tips, , up
means lifting it up with them.

So far it's worked, but there's always tomorrow!

[Mike Ash]

In article
>,
a > wrote:

> For what it's worth, I learned something back when cars had manual
> transmissions. I was taught to never hold the shifter, but to move it
> or 'slap' it in the right direction with an an open hand. On my
> Mooney, the gear switch looks like a wheel, it would be easy to grasp
> it -- I never do. Down means pushing it down with my finger tips, , up
> means lifting it up with them.
>
> So far it's worked, but there's always tomorrow!

Sensible when you can do it, but not workable for manual gear levers.
The gear lever in my plane is a direct linkage requiring a significant
amount of force, and so I have no choice but to grab it strongly. Worse,
the lever's travel is fore-and-aft, making it extremely non-obvious
which end corresponds to up and which to down!

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

On Jul 31, 8:21*pm, Mike Ash > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
> *a > wrote:
> > In how many places does your pre-landing checklist say 'check gear
> > down'? My first time is at the OM inbound or passing the numbers
> > downwind, and my last time is in the flare! There's no way to know for
> > sure, but I suspect a lot of gear up landings happen after someone
> > aborts a landing and flies a tight pattern: a break in the routine.
>
> Of the three gear-up landings I've personally witnessed, at least two
> would not have been saved by this. The pilots in both cases believed
> fervently that the gear was *already* down, after having failed to
> retract the gear beforehand, and then moved the lever to pull the gear
> UP as part of their landing checklist. I don't know the circumstances
> surrounding the third so I don't know if it also qualifies here or not.
>
> I'm not saying that your multiple checks are bad or anything, in fact
> they make a lot of sense to me, but I wonder at how you might also
> prevent the "putting it down twice" accident.
>
> --
> Mike Ash
> Radio Free Earth
> Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

The way I've always taught this issue to transitioning pilots going
into retracts is to treat any go around as a normal takeoff and
retract the gear. Take it on around and do the normal prelanding
checklist again. The gear lowering is simply a normal procedure.
The key in these situations is to remain as close to a normal habit
pattern as possible.
Dudley Henriques

[a[_3_]]

On Jul 31, 10:46*pm, Mike Ash > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
> *a > wrote:
> > For what it's worth, I learned something back when cars had manual
> > transmissions. I was taught to never hold the shifter, but to move it
> > or 'slap' it in the right direction with an an open hand. *On my
> > Mooney, the gear switch looks like a wheel, it would be easy to grasp
> > it -- I never do. Down means pushing it down with my finger tips, , up
> > means lifting it up with them.
>
> > So far it's worked, but there's always tomorrow!
>
> Sensible when you can do it, but not workable for manual gear levers.
> The gear lever in my plane is a direct linkage requiring a significant
> amount of force, and so I have no choice but to grab it strongly. Worse,
> the lever's travel is fore-and-aft, making it extremely non-obvious
> which end corresponds to up and which to down!
>
> --
> Mike Ash
> Radio Free Earth
> Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

I've never experienced it, but there must be a huge amount of ground
effect float in something like a Mooney as it sinks that close to the
ground with the gear up -- it would go well with that sinking feeling
of OMG, wouldn't it?

The only manual gear retraction airplane I flew was a Mooney Ranger
(M20C), and that thing we called a Joe bar made gear position pretty
obvious.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

On Aug 1, 7:04*am, a > wrote:
> On Jul 31, 10:46*pm, Mike Ash > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
>
> > *a > wrote:
> > > For what it's worth, I learned something back when cars had manual
> > > transmissions. I was taught to never hold the shifter, but to move it
> > > or 'slap' it in the right direction with an an open hand. *On my
> > > Mooney, the gear switch looks like a wheel, it would be easy to grasp
> > > it -- I never do. Down means pushing it down with my finger tips, , up
> > > means lifting it up with them.
>
> > > So far it's worked, but there's always tomorrow!
>
> > Sensible when you can do it, but not workable for manual gear levers.
> > The gear lever in my plane is a direct linkage requiring a significant
> > amount of force, and so I have no choice but to grab it strongly. Worse,
> > the lever's travel is fore-and-aft, making it extremely non-obvious
> > which end corresponds to up and which to down!
>
> > --
> > Mike Ash
> > Radio Free Earth
> > Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
>
> I've never experienced it, but there must be a huge amount of ground
> effect float in something like a Mooney as it sinks that close to the
> ground with the gear up -- it would go well with that sinking feeling
> of OMG, wouldn't it?
>
> The only manual gear retraction airplane I flew was a Mooney Ranger
> (M20C), and that thing we called a Joe bar made gear position pretty
> obvious.

We had a Mark 21 and a Mooney Mite on the line at different times and
flew them quite often. The trick with flying a Mooney is to be
consistent on approach and threshold speed. You arrive too fast
through the flare window and you can be in for a bit of a ride through
ground effect that uses a lot of room bleeding it on down through
touchdown.
Most (GOOD) Mooney drivers will stress the need to have the flare
speed right on the money as the "secret" to safe Mooney operations.
Dudley Henriques

[Mike Ash]

In article
>,
a > wrote:

> I've never experienced it, but there must be a huge amount of ground
> effect float in something like a Mooney as it sinks that close to the
> ground with the gear up -- it would go well with that sinking feeling
> of OMG, wouldn't it?

Funny you mention that. My plane sits significantly lower to the ground
than just about everything else I'd flown before. Not too long after we
got it back from the shop after my partner's gear-up landing in it, I
was landing and had that "sinking feeling" you describe because I
couldn't quite remember just how low I should have been. A quick check
to the gear handle reassured me but this totally screwed up my flare and
I made a fairly embarrassing (but non-damaging) landing because of it.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[[email protected]]

A few examples of what I've seen so far:


-) two springs missing that should have held exhaust pipes together.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) fatigue cracks in a bracket that hold the oil cooler.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) oil cooler still partially covered for the winter cold on a sunny
day
in May. instructor judged we could fly, though



Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while
fueling
the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back
home,
about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about
200' on
take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the
ground
at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than
knee
high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with
all
broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.



For a friend here.... he passed on 3 spinner cracks on a rental 172.

One crack was 1 1/2 in long.

They (others) continued to fly the aircraft for another week before
the spinner was removed.


All of these point out the old adage that incompetence is unaware
of itself. In the first cases, the instructor "judged we could fly."
Was the instructor a mechanic, too, or maybe en engineer, to make the
determination that broken or missing parts didn't affect the safety of
the aircraft? Designers and manufacturers don't typically spend money
on stuff that isn't necessary, and as far as cracks go, they don't
usually progress in a linear fashion. They can show up, travel slowly,
then the part can fail all at once as the metal ahead of the crack
reaches its fatigue point from the work-hardening that results when a
crack allows too much flexing. A cracked spinner can kill, and has
done so in the past. They've been known to come through the
windshield. Frayed cables might be ok for a while or might not, as the
instance given clearly demonstrates. Would the pilot of that airplane
have suspended himself thousands of feet above the earth using a
frayed cable? Probably not, be he did what amounted to the same thing.

If we're going to just say "it'll be OK," why bother with the
preflight in the first place?

There are the Five Hazardous Attitudes: Anti-Authority, Resignation,
Invulnerability, Macho, and Impulsivity. Under which one does the
"it'll be OK" fit? And if the law requires that the airplane be
airworthy before flight but we fly it with obvious defects anyway,
where does that fit?


See this:

http://www.pilotoutlook.com/instrument_flying/hazardous_attitudes_and_antidotes

I'll get flamed, for sure, but then you guys can place the flamer
somewhere in the Hazardous Attitude scale.


Dan

[a[_3_]]

On Aug 1, 11:36*am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> On Aug 1, 7:04*am, a > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 10:46*pm, Mike Ash > wrote:
>
> > > In article
> > > >,
>
> > > *a > wrote:
> > > > For what it's worth, I learned something back when cars had manual
> > > > transmissions. I was taught to never hold the shifter, but to move it
> > > > or 'slap' it in the right direction with an an open hand. *On my
> > > > Mooney, the gear switch looks like a wheel, it would be easy to grasp
> > > > it -- I never do. Down means pushing it down with my finger tips, , up
> > > > means lifting it up with them.
>
> > > > So far it's worked, but there's always tomorrow!
>
> > > Sensible when you can do it, but not workable for manual gear levers.
> > > The gear lever in my plane is a direct linkage requiring a significant
> > > amount of force, and so I have no choice but to grab it strongly. Worse,
> > > the lever's travel is fore-and-aft, making it extremely non-obvious
> > > which end corresponds to up and which to down!
>
> > > --
> > > Mike Ash
> > > Radio Free Earth
> > > Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
>
> > I've never experienced it, but there must be a huge amount of ground
> > effect float in something like a Mooney as it sinks that close to the
> > ground with the gear up -- it would go well with that sinking feeling
> > of OMG, wouldn't it?
>
> > The only manual gear retraction airplane I flew was a Mooney Ranger
> > (M20C), and that thing we called a Joe bar made gear position pretty
> > obvious.
>
> We had a Mark 21 and a Mooney Mite on the line at different times and
> flew them quite often. The trick with flying a Mooney is to be
> consistent on approach and threshold speed. You arrive too fast
> through the flare window and you can be in for a bit of a ride through
> ground effect that uses a lot of room bleeding it on down through
> touchdown.
> Most (GOOD) Mooney drivers will stress the need to have the flarefor
> speed right on the money as the "secret" to safe Mooney operations.
> Dudley Henriques

The laminar flow wing on the M20J's simply don't want to waste energy
and will float for a long time. It's a fun complex single to fly, and
others, like the Arrow or 182 R's seem rather more forgiving. Too many
SEL pilots carry too much energy into the flare -- or maybe not. It
gives them margins for nearly everything but short field operations.

The guys I fly with pride themselves on landings where the throttle,
from downwind onward thru turn off of the active only moves aft. Even
better is if the brakes aren't used until after the turn off as well.
There's no excuse in a light airplane like a Mooney to touch down on
the numbers when the turn you'll be taking from the active is 2000
feet down the runway.

During the final landing during a BFR my instructor asked for a touch
down on the numbers. I declined, offered the idea above as a better
demonstration of flying skill. He bought the reasoning.

[Peter Dohm]

> wrote in message
...
>A few examples of what I've seen so far:
-----------examples snipped for brevity----------
>
> All of these point out the old adage that incompetence is unaware
> of itself. In the first cases, the instructor "judged we could fly."
> Was the instructor a mechanic, too, or maybe en engineer, to make the
> determination that broken or missing parts didn't affect the safety of
> the aircraft? Designers and manufacturers don't typically spend money
> on stuff that isn't necessary, and as far as cracks go, they don't
> usually progress in a linear fashion. They can show up, travel slowly,
> then the part can fail all at once as the metal ahead of the crack
> reaches its fatigue point from the work-hardening that results when a
> crack allows too much flexing. A cracked spinner can kill, and has
> done so in the past. They've been known to come through the
> windshield. Frayed cables might be ok for a while or might not, as the
> instance given clearly demonstrates. Would the pilot of that airplane
> have suspended himself thousands of feet above the earth using a
> frayed cable? Probably not, be he did what amounted to the same thing.
>
-----------more snipped----------
> Dan

Back when there was a coffee shop, that had become a major hang-out for both
pilots and mechanics at my local airport, I once deferred a question to a
flight instructor who I knew to also be a certified A&E. The questioned was
a student pilot and I knew the correct answer; but really thought that it
should come from someone properly certified--and was utterly astounded by
the avalanche of poppycock that issued forth. I was so doumfounded that I
still can not recall the original question--half a dozen years later.

So, while I completely agree with your basic premise, I must also suggest
that any trust the general knowledge and good sense of a mechanic or
engineer should be evaluated as part of the decision whether to accept his
opinion or the products of his work!

I do know several mechanics who are darned good engineers, even though the
don't have engineering degrees, and also a couple of automotive mechanics
whose opinions I would gladly trust with regard to aircraft; but they are
not all created equal.

Peter

[Gene Seibel]

On Jul 26, 10:41*pm, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya

Yeah, mechanic told me the airplane would be ready Saturday morning.
Preflight revealed that airplane was still in pieces on his shop
floor.

Then there was the time a snow plow had clipped a tie down and pulled
a strut out of the wing.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

[jan olieslagers[_2_]]

Gene Seibel schreef:

> Preflight revealed that airplane was still in pieces on his shop
> floor.

That must have been an all-time record for a quick and decisive pre-flight!

[Curt Johnson[_2_]]

D Ramapriya wrote:
> Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
> inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
> plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ramapriya

While doing the pre-flight before my PP checkride, the examiner said,
"Let me show you how to check for worn stabilator bushings". He grabbed
the end of the stabilator and moved it back and forth about an inch, and
then looked at me. I checked two other PA28s nearby, and there was no
play. It was two weeks before the airplane was back on line.

Another time, one oleo strut sprung a leak during pre-flight.

Curt