Night Currency - Why Full Stops?

[[email protected]]

Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
be made to a full stop?

Thanks
Chris

[a[_3_]]

On Aug 11, 6:39*pm, wrote:
> Subject says it all. *Why do the landings for night currency have to
> be made to a full stop?
>
> Thanks
> Chris

Look at the regs for day time currency. . The easy answer is, if you
bounce enough you could otherwise get 2 touch and go a littles, then
a full stop, on a 5000 foot runway.

Why would you want to skimp on proving to yourself you were still
sharp enough? If you did three and weren't happy with them, even if to
a full stop, would you stop because you could put a check mark next to
current, or would you go back for some more to prove to yourself, not
anyone else, you were good enough? I'd not want to fly with someone
else as a PIC if he or she told me she had been inactive, then did 3
touch and goes. Would you?

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
wrote:

> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
> be made to a full stop?
>
> Thanks
> Chris

Safety.

[Matt Barrow[_8_]]

> wrote in message
...
> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
> be made to a full stop?


Because the takeoffs should be from a dead start.

[RandyL[_3_]]

because the FAA says so...

Randy L.
--
Remember: Any landing that you can walk away from,
is a landing that you can be fined, sued, or prosecuted for.

"a" > wrote in message
...
> On Aug 11, 6:39 pm, wrote:
>> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>> be made to a full stop?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Chris
>
> Look at the regs for day time currency. . The easy answer is, if you
> bounce enough you could otherwise get 2 touch and go a littles, then
> a full stop, on a 5000 foot runway.
>
> Why would you want to skimp on proving to yourself you were still
> sharp enough? If you did three and weren't happy with them, even if to
> a full stop, would you stop because you could put a check mark next to
> current, or would you go back for some more to prove to yourself, not
> anyone else, you were good enough? I'd not want to fly with someone
> else as a PIC if he or she told me she had been inactive, then did 3
> touch and goes. Would you?
>

[Ross]

wrote:
> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
> be made to a full stop?
>
> Thanks
> Chris

I read the replies and I hope this is a better answer. One poster said
it correctly, the FARs say you have to.

But, night flying is so different than day. The perspectives of the
runway environment are different and whether you have a dark night or a
full moon night. Safety would be an answer, but I think it is more the
difference. Night flying on a moonless night is akin to IFR, almost,
especially in a sparsely populated area.

Just another bit of information. Before I had to sell my plane, our
local airport wanted to get night approach lights. I took the airport
sponsor and another pilot and went to a couple of airports that had VASI
lights. I made much better landings at night following the VASI than I
did at my home airport without them. I really found it amazing. I guess
I tended to be high on approach at night.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[a[_3_]]

On Aug 12, 1:17*pm, Ross > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Subject says it all. *Why do the landings for night currency have to
> > be made to a full stop?
>
> > Thanks
> > Chris
>
> I read the replies and I hope this is a better answer. One poster said
> it correctly, the FARs say you have to.
>
> But, night flying is so different than day. The perspectives of the
> runway environment are different and whether you have a dark night or a
> full moon night. Safety would be an answer, but I think it is more the
> difference. Night flying on a moonless night is akin to IFR, almost,
> especially in a sparsely populated area.
>
> Just another bit of information. Before I had to sell my plane, our
> local airport wanted to get night approach lights. I took the airport
> sponsor and another pilot and went to a couple of airports that had VASI
> lights. I made much better landings at night following the VASI than I
> did at my home airport without them. I really found it amazing. I guess
> ThenI tended to be high on approach at night.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> Sold :(
> KSWI

If you want to really test your night time skills, find an isolated
uncontrolled airport with minimal lighting -- be sure it has a 4000
foot or more runway. Then, do your landings planning touchdown a
thousand feet from the approach end. The only way I can do it
consistantly is to put the Mooney in landing configuration, set the
manifold pressure to where I want it, and fly the approach airspeed. I
make throttle adjustments until my target flare point stays fixed in
my sight picture when I'm 500 feet above the ground. I would much
rather fly an ILS to minimums with a crosswind component near max
allowable than fly into small airports with basic lighting at night.
At least on an ILS when I look up and see the airport invironment I
know where things are supposed to be. Landing between the RR lights,
or just setting up right, means among other things factoring in the
width of the runway when imagining the sight picture to look for. I
prove all too often that that 'Right Stuff" is really hard to find in
my flight bag.

[Matt Barrow[_8_]]

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>> be made to a full stop?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Chris
>
> I read the replies and I hope this is a better answer. One poster said it
> correctly, the FARs say you have to.

I think he already knew that, but wanted the logic behind it, so the below
certainly helps.

>
> But, night flying is so different than day. The perspectives of the runway
> environment are different and whether you have a dark night or a full moon
> night. Safety would be an answer, but I think it is more the difference. Night
> flying on a moonless night is akin to IFR, almost, especially in a sparsely
> populated area.
>
> Just another bit of information. Before I had to sell my plane, our local
> airport wanted to get night approach lights. I took the airport sponsor and
> another pilot and went to a couple of airports that had VASI lights. I made
> much better landings at night following the VASI than I did at my home airport
> without them. I really found it amazing. I guess I tended to be high on
> approach at night.

I find night landing not so much a problem as takeoffs, since we're pretty much
in open, dark country and once airborne the depth perception diminishes rather
quickly. It's not so bad when in and out quickly.

Matt

[BT]

what are "night approach lights"?
do not recall hearing that term before
BT

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>> be made to a full stop?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Chris
>
> I read the replies and I hope this is a better answer. One poster said it
> correctly, the FARs say you have to.
>
> But, night flying is so different than day. The perspectives of the runway
> environment are different and whether you have a dark night or a full moon
> night. Safety would be an answer, but I think it is more the difference.
> Night flying on a moonless night is akin to IFR, almost, especially in a
> sparsely populated area.
>
> Just another bit of information. Before I had to sell my plane, our local
> airport wanted to get night approach lights. I took the airport sponsor
> and another pilot and went to a couple of airports that had VASI lights. I
> made much better landings at night following the VASI than I did at my
> home airport without them. I really found it amazing. I guess I tended to
> be high on approach at night.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> Sold :(
> KSWI

[Ross]

BT wrote:
> what are "night approach lights"?
> do not recall hearing that term before
> BT
>
> "Ross" > wrote in message
> ...
>>snip
>>
>> --
>>
>> Regards, Ross
>> C-172F 180HP
>> Sold :(
>> KSWI
>
>

It was my lame term for VASI, etc type of approach landing light systems.
--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Brian Whatcott]

a wrote:
> On Aug 12, 1:17 pm, Ross > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>>> be made to a full stop?
>>> Thanks
>>> Chris
>> I read the replies and I hope this is a better answer. One poster said
>> it correctly, the FARs say you have to.
>>
>> But, night flying is so different than day. The perspectives of the
>> runway environment are different and whether you have a dark night or a
>> full moon night. Safety would be an answer, but I think it is more the
>> difference. Night flying on a moonless night is akin to IFR, almost,
>> especially in a sparsely populated area.
>>
>> Just another bit of information. Before I had to sell my plane, our
>> local airport wanted to get night approach lights. I took the airport
>> sponsor and another pilot and went to a couple of airports that had VASI
>> lights. I made much better landings at night following the VASI than I
>> did at my home airport without them. I really found it amazing. I guess
>> ThenI tended to be high on approach at night.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Regards, Ross
>> C-172F 180HP
>> Sold :(
>> KSWI
>
> If you want to really test your night time skills, find an isolated
> uncontrolled airport with minimal lighting -- be sure it has a 4000
> foot or more runway. Then, do your landings planning touchdown a
> thousand feet from the approach end. The only way I can do it
> consistently is to put the Mooney in landing configuration, set the
> manifold pressure to where I want it, and fly the approach airspeed. I
> make throttle adjustments until my target flare point stays fixed in
> my sight picture when I'm 500 feet above the ground. I would much
> rather fly an ILS to minimums with a crosswind component near max
> allowable than fly into small airports with basic lighting at night.
> At least on an ILS when I look up and see the airport environment I
> know where things are supposed to be. Landing between the RR lights,
> or just setting up right, means among other things factoring in the
> width of the runway when imagining the sight picture to look for. I
> prove all too often that that 'Right Stuff" is really hard to find in
> my flight bag.
>
....then there are the country fields with pilot-activated lighting....

Brian W

[BT]

ohh... ok.. they work in the day light too..

I do land on runways at night with out "night approach lights"

BT

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> BT wrote:
>> what are "night approach lights"?
>> do not recall hearing that term before
>> BT
>>
>> "Ross" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>snip
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Regards, Ross
>>> C-172F 180HP
>>> Sold :(
>>> KSWI
>>
>>
>
> It was my lame term for VASI, etc type of approach landing light systems.
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> Sold :(
> KSWI

[Jessica]

a wrote:
> On Aug 11, 6:39 pm, wrote:
>> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>> be made to a full stop?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Chris
>
> Look at the regs for day time currency. . The easy answer is, if you
> bounce enough you could otherwise get 2 touch and go a littles, then
> a full stop, on a 5000 foot runway.

So if it's good enough for day...

>
> Why would you want to skimp on proving to yourself you were still
> sharp enough? If you did three and weren't happy with them, even if to
> a full stop, would you stop because you could put a check mark next to
> current, or would you go back for some more to prove to yourself, not
> anyone else, you were good enough? I'd not want to fly with someone
> else as a PIC if he or she told me she had been inactive, then did 3
> touch and goes. Would you?

That's nice but doesn't address the original question, which was about
the regulations, not what you feel is good enough.

[Jessica]

wrote:
> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
> be made to a full stop?

IIRC, the reasoning is due to the lack of overall perspective of the
airport environment at night compared to day. Everything that is not
lit disappears, so it is beneficial to have additional experience in
that environment. Perhaps the FAA expected pilots to practice taxing
after each landing, although they did not require this.

I've heard of students who received their primary training at night, and
while they made great night landings had a lot of trouble at first
during the day, so your mileage may vary.

The simplest way to get your landings to a full stop is merely due stop
and goes on a runway with suitable length (with tower's permission as
applicable).

Taildraggers need landings to a full stop during the day to maintain
currency.

[K l e i n[_2_]]

On Aug 13, 9:35*pm, Jessica > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Subject says it all. *Why do the landings for night currency have to
> > be made to a full stop?
>
> IIRC, the reasoning is due to the lack of overall perspective of the
> airport environment at night compared to day. *Everything that is not
> lit disappears, so it is beneficial to have additional experience in
> that environment. *Perhaps the FAA expected pilots to practice taxing
> after each landing, although they did not require this.
>
> I've heard of students who received their primary training at night, and
> while they made great night landings had a lot of trouble at first
> during the day, so your mileage may vary.
>
> The simplest way to get your landings to a full stop is merely due stop
> and goes on a runway with suitable length (with tower's permission as
> applicable).
>
> Taildraggers need landings to a full stop during the day to maintain
> currency.

If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to get off
the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure you are properly
configured for the takeoff. If you forget something, say, leave the
flaps down, or the trim where it was, etc, you could find yourself in
a lot more trouble on a stop and go or touch and go than if the sun
was shining. Anyway, it's what I always do. Saving a couple of
minutes just isn't worth it.

K l e i n

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

>If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to get off
>the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure you are properly
>configured for the takeoff. If you forget something, say, leave the
>flaps down, or the trim where it was, etc, you could find yourself in
>a lot more trouble on a stop and go or touch and go than if the sun
>was shining. Anyway, it's what I always do. Saving a couple of
>minutes just isn't worth it.


In my mind, the real question is why a 'bounce and go' is allowed for
daytime currency in a nosedragger...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[a[_3_]]

On Aug 16, 9:17*am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My
Sig.com> wrote:
> >If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to get off
> >the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure you are properly
> >configured for the takeoff. *If you forget something, say, leave the
> >flaps down, or the trim where it was, etc, you could find yourself in
> >a lot more trouble on a stop and go or touch and go than if the sun
> >was shining. *Anyway, it's what I always do. *Saving a couple of
> >minutes *just isn't worth it.
>
> In my mind, the real question is why a 'bounce and go' is allowed for
> daytime currency in a nosedragger...
>
> -
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

I may be wrong about this, but I think daytime recent experience
requires full stop landings too.

A brief google search didn't answer another question -- that is, what
does the FAA consider a 'take off'. If it just meant getting the
wheels off the ground, I could do a take off from a dead stop off and
a landing to a full stop without having to fly a circuit. I'd have to
taxi a circuit though for the next cycle.

That's a technical/legal question of course, the idea of doing 3 t-o
and landings is to demonstrate you still know how to do tham. That
should be the minimum requirement any of us have. If we have not flown
in 90 days, boys and girls, there's rust on them there reflexes. Go do
some airwork, maybe with a safety pilot. Find a crosswind and land
into it. Do slow flight for a while, hang that damned thing on its
prop. Do a steep 360 and stay within 50 feet of altitude. Do enough of
that then ask yourself if you were riding in someone else's airplane
and knew that was the extent of his recent experience, would you let
him fly you somewhere?

[[email protected]]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe <The Sea Hawk @see my sig.com> wrote:
>>If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to get off
>>the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure you are properly
>>configured for the takeoff. If you forget something, say, leave the
>>flaps down, or the trim where it was, etc, you could find yourself in
>>a lot more trouble on a stop and go or touch and go than if the sun
>>was shining. Anyway, it's what I always do. Saving a couple of
>>minutes just isn't worth it.
>
>
> In my mind, the real question is why a 'bounce and go' is allowed for
> daytime currency in a nosedragger...

They are not.

Read 61.57 a.1.ii


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Robert Moore]

wrote

>> In my mind, the real question is why a 'bounce and go' is allowed for
>> daytime currency in a nosedragger...
>
> They are not.
>
> Read 61.57 a.1.ii

Perhaps you did not accurately read the post to which you responded?

Bob Moore

[[email protected]]

Robert Moore > wrote:
> wrote
>
>>> In my mind, the real question is why a 'bounce and go' is allowed for
>>> daytime currency in a nosedragger...
>>
>> They are not.
>>
>> Read 61.57 a.1.ii
>
> Perhaps you did not accurately read the post to which you responded?
>
> Bob Moore

Yep, all I saw was "dragger"...


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Ron Garret]

In article
>,
a > wrote:

> On Aug 16, 9:17Â*am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My
> Sig.com> wrote:
> > >If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to get off
> > >the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure you are properly
> > >configured for the takeoff. Â*If you forget something, say, leave the
> > >flaps down, or the trim where it was, etc, you could find yourself in
> > >a lot more trouble on a stop and go or touch and go than if the sun
> > >was shining. Â*Anyway, it's what I always do. Â*Saving a couple of
> > >minutes Â*just isn't worth it.
> >
> > In my mind, the real question is why a 'bounce and go' is allowed for
> > daytime currency in a nosedragger...
> >
> > -
> > Geoff
> > The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> > remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> > When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>
> I may be wrong about this, but I think daytime recent experience
> requires full stop landings too.

Only in an tail-wheel aircraft, not one with tricycle gear.

rg

[a[_3_]]

On Aug 16, 10:09*pm, Ron Garret > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
>
>
> *a > wrote:
> > On Aug 16, 9:17*am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My
> > Sig.com> wrote:
> > > >If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to get off
> > > >the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure you are properly
> > > >configured for the takeoff. *If you forget something, say, leave the
> > > >flaps down, or the trim where it was, etc, you could find yourself in
> > > >a lot more trouble on a stop and go or touch and go than if the sun
> > > >was shining. *Anyway, it's what I always do. *Saving a couple of
> > > >minutes *just isn't worth it.
>
> > > In my mind, the real question is why a 'bounce and go' is allowed for
> > > daytime currency in a nosedragger...
>
> > > -
> > > Geoff
> > > The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> > > remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> > > When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>
> > I may be wrong about this, but I think daytime recent experience
> > requires full stop landings too.
>
> Only in an tail-wheel aircraft, not one with tricycle gear.
>
> rg- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yeah, I see that you're right. I stand (will, sit) corrected. It's
been a long time since I've not flown enough in 90 days to make 3
landings. My usual concern is staying current for IFR without
scheduling flights just for that purpose. Too often the 'real' flights
are not in IMC, and it's been some time since I was anywhere near
minimums without having the field in sight. Takes all of the fun out
of "Cleared ILS to RR whatever, report outer marker inbound".

[Mike Granby]

On Aug 15, 10:46*pm, K l e i n > wrote:

> If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to
> get off the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure
> you are properly configured for the takeoff.

You ought to be able to convert from the landing configuration to the
take-off configuration from memory without a checklist. Otherwise, how
would you be capable of performing a go-around?

[a[_3_]]

On Aug 17, 10:11*am, Mike Granby > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 10:46*pm, K l e i n > wrote:
>
> > If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to
> > get off the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure
> > you are properly configured for the takeoff.
>
> You ought to be able to convert from the landing configuration to the
> take-off configuration from memory without a checklist. Otherwise, how
> would you be capable of performing a go-around?

In general for my complex single, and probably for most others, the
only differences between landing configuration and take off is flap
setting, trim, and throttle position. A full stop on the other hand
means for me getting on ground freq, sucking up the flaps, getting
back to the approach end, doing a pre takeoff checklist, etc etc. If
you haven't flown three landings in the past 90 days which would more
likely demonstrate to you the pilot (not some paper pusher) that you
really have knocked off enough rust to be trusted to carry someone?

Remember the goal isn't to simply put a check list next to 'current'
but to assure yourself you know what you're doing.

[Peter Dohm]

"a" > wrote in message
...
>On Aug 17, 10:11 am, Mike Granby > wrote:
>> On Aug 15, 10:46 pm, K l e i n > wrote:
>>
>> > If you are flying a more complex aircraft, you really want to
>> > get off the runway, stop and grab the checklist to make sure
>> > you are properly configured for the takeoff.
>>
>> You ought to be able to convert from the landing configuration to the
>> take-off configuration from memory without a checklist. Otherwise, how
>> would you be capable of performing a go-around?>\
>
>
> In general for my complex single, and probably for most others, the
> only differences between landing configuration and take off is flap
> setting, trim, and throttle position. A full stop on the other hand
> means for me getting on ground freq, sucking up the flaps, getting
> back to the approach end, doing a pre takeoff checklist, etc etc. If
> you haven't flown three landings in the past 90 days which would more
> likely demonstrate to you the pilot (not some paper pusher) that you
> really have knocked off enough rust to be trusted to carry someone?
>
> Remember the goal isn't to simply put a check list next to 'current'
> but to assure yourself you know what you're doing.
>
>
As onlty a former student pilot, I really try not to participate in this
type of thread; but instead to leave it to the active pilots--including
instructors.

But in this case, the intent is just too obvious: You should have flown at
least three sorties within the prior 90 day period, or you are clearly not
current and must take some remedial action.

As to the full stop: I was not a tailwheel pilot and really don't know, but
it probably has a lot to do with an easily written way to require that you
control the aircraft with the tailwheel on the ground. and do so well enough
to safely stop the aircraft. As I said, I was never a tailwheel pilot, and
was never fortunate enough to have any tailwheel time; but I did know a
couple of Stearman owners.

Peter

P.S.: IFAIK, the rulle book doesdn't say anything about grass vs pavement;
but such an argument could be made...

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:39:13 -0400,
wrote:

> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
> be made to a full stop?
>
> Thanks
> Chris

Because you should be attentive to the landing until your wheels stop
rolling. Even when you fly your FX.

[Franklin[_7_]]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:31:27 -0400, Jessica wrote:

> That's nice but doesn't address the original question, which was about
> the regulations, not what you feel is good enough.

Pease don't feed this troll.

[[email protected]]

After reviewing the posts, the closest answer to me is safety. I fly
out of a 8000 foot strip, so there is always plenty of room, but I
could see someone on a short field risking a stop and go rather than
taxi back if the landing was long.

I also emailed AOPA and they did not have an answer.

thanks to all that took this seriously.

Chris - still searching
Mooney N9373M 66 M20E


On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:39:13 -0400,
wrote:

>Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>be made to a full stop?
>
>Thanks
>Chris

[Franklin[_12_]]

Franklin <"Franklin wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:39:13 -0400,
> wrote:
>
>> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>> be made to a full stop?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Chris
>
> Because you should be attentive to the landing until your wheels stop
> rolling. Even when you fly your FX.

You're in the wrong group again.

Try 'rec.models.rc.air'.

[[email protected]]

I'm not in the wrong group, and I have still not gotten a satifactory
answer.

Chris
Mooney N9373M

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:26:04 +0100, Franklin >
wrote:

>Franklin <"Franklin wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:39:13 -0400,
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Subject says it all. Why do the landings for night currency have to
>>> be made to a full stop?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Chris
>>
>> Because you should be attentive to the landing until your wheels stop
>> rolling. Even when you fly your FX.
>
>You're in the wrong group again.
>
>Try 'rec.models.rc.air'.

[Matt Barrow[_8_]]

> wrote in message
...
> I'm not in the wrong group, and I have still not gotten a satifactory
> answer.
>
> Chris
> Mooney N9373M

Because the perceptions are so different and change so drastically, from a
stopped position thru climbout and back thru landing and a stop, at night.

Myself and at least one other person have pointed this out, but with 50 some
odd comments, most way off on a tangent, it might have been lost for you in
the "noise".