Is a state record for sports class triangle a "handicappeddistance"??

[Spam]

Hi,

I'm hoping to go after a state triangle record for sports class.
Obviously the speed would be handicapped....but is the distance
handicapped as well???

[cfinn]

A quick look at the US State rules PDF file from the SSA site, shows
that both distance and speed are calculated. This under section 6.3.d.
Basically, you calculate the handicapped distance (HMI) first by
multiplying the distance by the handicap. Then you calculate the
handicap speed (HMPH) by dividing the handicapped distance by the task
duration.

Charlie

On Aug 24, 8:20*am, Spam > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping to go after a state triangle record for sports class.
> Obviously the speed would be handicapped....but is the distance
> handicapped as well???

[Papa3]

On Aug 24, 8:20*am, Spam > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping to go after a state triangle record for sports class.
> Obviously the speed would be handicapped....but is the distance
> handicapped as well???

Yes. The order in which the calculations are performed is:

- Calculate nominal distance (non-handicapped distance)
- Multiply nominal distance by CH handicap factor (resulting in the
handicapped distance) which determines the distance category (100K,
200K, 300K, 500K, etc.)
- Divide the handicapped distance by the time to obtain speed.

So, if you are flying a glider with a 1.1 CH handicap, then you can
fly (for example) a triangle of 273 km which would be a handicapped
300K.

Erik Mann
SSA Badge and Record Committee

[Frank Whiteley]

On Aug 24, 7:13*am, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Aug 24, 8:20*am, Spam > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I'm hoping to go after a state triangle record for sports class.
> > Obviously the speed would be handicapped....but is the distance
> > handicapped as well???
>
> Yes. * The order in which the calculations are performed is:
>
> - * Calculate nominal distance (non-handicapped distance)
> - * Multiply nominal distance by CH handicap factor (resulting in the
> handicapped distance) which determines the distance category (100K,
> 200K, 300K, 500K, etc.)
> - * Divide the handicapped distance by the time to obtain speed.
>
> So, if you are flying a glider with a 1.1 CH handicap, then you can
> fly (for example) a triangle of 273 km which would be a handicapped
> 300K.
>
> Erik Mann
> SSA Badge and Record Committee

Not specific to this question, but note that the State Record Keepers
Evaluation checklist is out of date regarding the general distance
evaluation margin.

[Spam]

OK...so, I went out and set a record. Then I came back and my
cambridge 302 said "security fail" when downloading the flight.
However, it downloaded just fine to the OLC.

Anyone have any suggestions of how to get the file out correctly?

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I recommend re-trying the download several times. It may work after a few
more tries. If not, it may be possible to have the recorder "re-sealed" and
still get a valid flight log out of it. Cambridge can re-seal it for you.
So can any Cambridge dealer. This seems to be a fairly rare bug.

Does the 302 LCD display show that the unit has a valid seal?

I'm surprised the file worked on the OLC.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Spam" > wrote in message
...
> OK...so, I went out and set a record. Then I came back and my
> cambridge 302 said "security fail" when downloading the flight.
> However, it downloaded just fine to the OLC.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions of how to get the file out correctly?
>

[Spam]

HI Paul,

Thanks for your advice. I will go out to the airport today and try to
download the flight again several times. If not theres the cambridge
factory 10 minutes from my house I will pay them a visit.

On the takeoff roll, I hit some major bumps which sent things flying
around the cockpit. I think the cable between the 302 and the ipaq
got knocked loose. I had to reset everything airborne. I did this
before I went out on task.

Scott

[HL Falbaum[_2_]]

Download it anyway and check the file with the Cambridge validating file
(Valicam2.exe)--(see Cambridge website or FAI website)
File may be OK anyway---I've had that happen with a 302.

--
Hartley Falbaum


"Spam" > wrote in message
...
> OK...so, I went out and set a record. Then I came back and my
> cambridge 302 said "security fail" when downloading the flight.
> However, it downloaded just fine to the OLC.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions of how to get the file out correctly?
>

[Todd]

> So, if you are flying a glider with a 1.1 CH handicap, then you can
> fly (for example) a triangle of 273 km which would be a handicapped
> 300K.

Recheck the rules...they also say that the distance cannot be less
than the "nominal" distance

(ii. Calculate Handicapped Speed: Verify that the Handicapped Distance
is not less than the required record task length),

so in your example, you still need to fly the full 300KM.

This rule would also require a .80 long winged ship to fly 1200KM for
his 1000KM record.

Personally I disagree with this implementation. Speed records (which
are all for "fixed" distances) should be flown at the stated nominal
distance (e.g. 500km) and the resulting performance (speed) then
handicapped. As currently written, you cannot lay out a 100KM
triangle and attack it with various ships/pilots and compare
handicapped performance. Soaring is the only sport I know that does
this kind of handicapping. Every other "racing" sport pits speed
against a fixed course (distance) and handicaps the result (e.g. .25
mile drag racing, Solo II car events, or even a Assigned Task in
Sports Class)

Unless you fly the 1.0 scratch ship, you are either penalized by
flying further than the nominal distance (significant at longer
distances, e.g. 1000km) or fly extra "handicapped distance". If you
want to pit the .8 ship vs the 1.2 ship together on one day, they
should be required to fly the exact same course.

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I'm sorry, but disagree with how you are interpreting the rule. It says
only that the Handicapped Distance is not less than the required full task
length. For example. If you are flying a glider with a handicap of 0.89,
the handicapped distance would be 300 k / 0.89 = 337.1 k. So the minimum
300 K triangle distance for a Sport Class state record in that glider would
be 337.1 km. A short winged glider (like the one you mention below) would
need to fly only 273 km. The only number to be compared to the "task
distance" (300 k triangle for example) is the handicapped distance. There
is no mention of comparing the raw or actual distance to the "task
distance".

I like the rule. It makes the playing field more level. Even with the
handicapping it is still easier for the high performance ship to make it
around the longer course - for several reasons. For example, the long
winged glider has a much higher chance of bumping into good lift and can go
further between good thermals.

The rule applies only to the Sports Class records. All other records (Open,
15m, Standard Class, Double-seater) are not handicapped at all.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde


"Todd" > wrote in message
...
>> So, if you are flying a glider with a 1.1 CH handicap, then you can
>> fly (for example) a triangle of 273 km which would be a handicapped
>> 300K.
>
> Recheck the rules...they also say that the distance cannot be less
> than the "nominal" distance
>
> (ii. Calculate Handicapped Speed: Verify that the Handicapped Distance
> is not less than the required record task length),
>
> so in your example, you still need to fly the full 300KM.
>
> This rule would also require a .80 long winged ship to fly 1200KM for
> his 1000KM record.
>
> Personally I disagree with this implementation. Speed records (which
> are all for "fixed" distances) should be flown at the stated nominal
> distance (e.g. 500km) and the resulting performance (speed) then
> handicapped. As currently written, you cannot lay out a 100KM
> triangle and attack it with various ships/pilots and compare
> handicapped performance. Soaring is the only sport I know that does
> this kind of handicapping. Every other "racing" sport pits speed
> against a fixed course (distance) and handicaps the result (e.g. .25
> mile drag racing, Solo II car events, or even a Assigned Task in
> Sports Class)
>
> Unless you fly the 1.0 scratch ship, you are either penalized by
> flying further than the nominal distance (significant at longer
> distances, e.g. 1000km) or fly extra "handicapped distance". If you
> want to pit the .8 ship vs the 1.2 ship together on one day, they
> should be required to fly the exact same course.

[Papa3]

On Aug 27, 6:36*am, Spam > wrote:
> HI Paul,
>
> Thanks for your advice. *I will go out to the airport today and try to
> download the flight again several times. *If not theres the cambridge
> factory 10 minutes from my house I will pay them a visit.
>
> On the takeoff roll, I hit some major bumps which sent things flying
> around the cockpit. *I think the cable between the 302 and the ipaq
> got knocked loose. *I had to reset everything airborne. *I did this
> before I went out on task.
>
> Scott

Aargh,

Another potential rub would be the validity of the declaration if this
was the case. When you say you "reset everything", did you also send
the declaration to the 302 again? This would invalidate it, since
the declaration needs to be done before takeoff...