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-   -   UK planning to evict N-registered aircraft (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=30464)

Juan Jimenez August 6th 05 03:56 AM

UK planning to evict N-registered aircraft
 
The reason is that the bureaucracy and incompetents feel threatened by the
trend. It is my opinion that people go the N-registered route so as not to
have to deal with the bozos who have gone so far as to tell UK pilots what
airplanes they are skilled enough to fly, and that they are doing it to
protect them.

I would hope that the CAA nor the DFT gets their way on this. There should
be plenty of comments from N-reg owners filed in response this, pointing out
that the problem is with the useless bureaucracy, not with the owners.

"Peter" wrote in message
...
The UK Department for Transport has published a consultation document;
their aim is as stated above.

This would be extremely bad news for practically all U.S. registered
pilots based in the UK.

It would also be bad news for the American GA aircraft market, which
would get flooded with aeroplanes forcibly sold from the UK. Many
aeroplanes have FAA approved features which are not European approved.
These would have to be removed, or the aircraft sold.

Cirrus SR22 (arguably the best U.S. GA success story) would also be
evicted from the UK, as would the TBM700C2 and other types.


Peter.
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Simon Hobson August 10th 05 09:02 AM

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 8:22:48 +0100, Peter wrote
(in message ):

The structure of European airspace, and its weather in many places,
are such that without an IFR capability one can't usefully go
anywhere.

In the UK there is the IMC Rating; effectively an IR limited to below
Class A. This means an IR is not strictly needed for flying purely
around the UK. We do have Class A down to 2500ft, and even surface, in
a lot of places, but in general one can fly under/around it.

In Europe it's different. Any IMC requires a full IR, and that (flying
usefully into Europe, doing instrument approaches and departures) is
why people do the IR. And the FAA IR is the only one that's
realistically attainable for most pilots that have work to do.


Not to mention that in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR, and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed without
a full IR.

Hence even night flying requires an IR outside the UK.



Andy R August 10th 05 10:07 AM


"Simon Hobson" wrote in message
et...
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 8:22:48 +0100, Peter wrote
(in message ):

The structure of European airspace, and its weather in many places,
are such that without an IFR capability one can't usefully go
anywhere.

In the UK there is the IMC Rating; effectively an IR limited to below
Class A. This means an IR is not strictly needed for flying purely
around the UK. We do have Class A down to 2500ft, and even surface, in
a lot of places, but in general one can fly under/around it.

In Europe it's different. Any IMC requires a full IR, and that (flying
usefully into Europe, doing instrument approaches and departures) is
why people do the IR. And the FAA IR is the only one that's
realistically attainable for most pilots that have work to do.


Not to mention that in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR, and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed
without
a full IR.

Hence even night flying requires an IR outside the UK.


The French allow night VFR, pretty restrictive though, see
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....0ENR%201.2.pdf

Rgds

Andy R



Andy R August 10th 05 10:12 AM


"Andy R" wrote in message
...

"Simon Hobson" wrote in message
et...
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 8:22:48 +0100, Peter wrote
(in message ):

The structure of European airspace, and its weather in many places,
are such that without an IFR capability one can't usefully go
anywhere.

In the UK there is the IMC Rating; effectively an IR limited to below
Class A. This means an IR is not strictly needed for flying purely
around the UK. We do have Class A down to 2500ft, and even surface, in
a lot of places, but in general one can fly under/around it.

In Europe it's different. Any IMC requires a full IR, and that (flying
usefully into Europe, doing instrument approaches and departures) is
why people do the IR. And the FAA IR is the only one that's
realistically attainable for most pilots that have work to do.


Not to mention that in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR,
and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed
without
a full IR.

Hence even night flying requires an IR outside the UK.


The French allow night VFR, pretty restrictive though, see
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....0ENR%201.2.pdf

There are also other things things that make it not impossible to get about
without an IR. ie you can fly VFR in most French airways provided you're
not in cloud, and you don't need to be in sight of the surface. So if you
can find a hole to go up through and it's scattered or better at your
destination on occasions you're actually better off than in the UK with an
IMC because you can use the airways.

Rgds

Andy R



Andy R August 10th 05 11:06 AM


"Peter" wrote in message
...

Simon Hobson wrote:

Not to mention that in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR,


Only in VMC and in Class G :)

and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed
without
a full IR.


Plenty of countries have VFR allowed at night - the USA is one great
example.

But yes this can be an issue. However a much bigger issue is that the
UK is unique in allowing flight in IMC (i.e. IFR) anywhere, and
allowing it without any clearance or even any radio contact in Class
G.

Outside the UK, to fly IFR, one needs to be on an IFR flight plan
(following the proper ATS routes, filed and verified via the Brussels
computer, and amended en-route by ATC as they wish) and an IR is
mandatory to stay legal. Same in the USA, except their flight plan
handling and lots of other details are very different.

If the British Govt kicks out N-reg aircraft, in addition to the huge
costs (typically, 4-5 figures to move back to G, for a little plane
with no certification issues, and impossible for many e.g. the SR22)
they will strip a large number of pilots of their IFR privileges for
European flight. This is a very poor thing to do for safety.


But a very good thing to do for civil servants/politicians who want control
of the populace at any cost. AIUI this isn't being pushed as a safety
measure and it's not even the CAA doing the pushing but the DFT.

Rgds

Andy R



Brian Whatcott August 10th 05 05:25 PM

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 9:02:20 +0100, Simon Hobson
wrote:
/// in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR, and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed without
a full IR.

Hence even night flying requires an IR outside the UK.


This note is wrong in several respects

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK


ShawnD2112 August 10th 05 07:43 PM

Not entirely true. You need an IMC rating to fly in IMC but it doesn't give
you the full priveleges of an IR (Class A use, for instance). It is merely
to teach you to fly in marginal weather. Also you do need to have a Night
Rating (and pay the CAA for the privelege) but it requires neither an IMC
nor an IR rating.

shawn

"Simon Hobson" wrote in message
et...
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 8:22:48 +0100, Peter wrote
(in message ):

The structure of European airspace, and its weather in many places,
are such that without an IFR capability one can't usefully go
anywhere.

In the UK there is the IMC Rating; effectively an IR limited to below
Class A. This means an IR is not strictly needed for flying purely
around the UK. We do have Class A down to 2500ft, and even surface, in
a lot of places, but in general one can fly under/around it.

In Europe it's different. Any IMC requires a full IR, and that (flying
usefully into Europe, doing instrument approaches and departures) is
why people do the IR. And the FAA IR is the only one that's
realistically attainable for most pilots that have work to do.


Not to mention that in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR, and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed
without
a full IR.

Hence even night flying requires an IR outside the UK.





ORVAL FAIRAIRN August 10th 05 07:43 PM

In article ,
Simon Hobson wrote:

(some stuff snipped)

Not to mention that in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR, and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed without
a full IR.

Hence even night flying requires an IR outside the UK.


In the US, all you need is three takeoffs and landings at night within
the past 90 days to be qualified at night -- no IFR, "night rating," etc.

xyzzy August 10th 05 07:55 PM

ORVAL FAIRAIRN wrote:

In article ,
Simon Hobson wrote:

(some stuff snipped)


Not to mention that in the UK a basic PPL with no ratings can fly IFR, and
only needs a Night Qualification to fly at night. I understand that
elsewhere, any night flying (as here) is IFR, and IFR is not allowed without
a full IR.

Hence even night flying requires an IR outside the UK.



In the US, all you need is three takeoffs and landings at night within
the past 90 days to be qualified at night -- no IFR, "night rating," etc.


In the USA, you only need to be "night-current" to carry passengers at
night. You don't need to be night-current to fly solo at night. It's
just normal VFR flying.


Bob Moore August 10th 05 08:03 PM

ORVAL FAIRAIRN wrote
In the US, all you need is three takeoffs and landings at night within
the past 90 days to be qualified at night -- no IFR, "night rating,"
etc.


I don't think so, Orval....

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act
as pilot in command of an aircraft CARRYING PASSENGERS during the period
beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless
within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs
and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after
sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, andó

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of
the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).





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