On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:56:11 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Really? A single quote from a British YouTuber 26 minutes in is proof of your case? Have you flown a few thousand miles cross country in a motorglider? If not what is your experience in them, beyond watching YouTube, that makes you sure of what you assert?

I (we) have said many times that a motorglider *does* give you more freedom because the inconvenience of a retrieve is greatly diminished (provided the motor starts). This has nothing to do with safety (it might not). It has to do with laziness. We went all through this a couple of years ago when MP was accused of using the motor to save himself while setting his many records, an examination of every IGC log for that season proves that accusation complete hogwash.

Now, should motorgliders be put in a separate class for records, on the fact alone that retrieves are easier and more convenient? You could make that argument, but the Pandora's box it opens is extensive: different class for paid crew? Different class for volunteer crew? Different class for gliders without trailers? Different class for a JS3 vs an ASW20?

The reason people are almost exclusively using motorgliders to set records in the Great Basin is that it makes the logistics easier, it has nothing to do with performance, safety, or skill. Come out to Ely and attempt some records in your non motorglider and see. You can fly the same courses at the same speeds, but your failed attempts will be a lot more work for your crew (you will need one), and there are a lot of failed attempts in record flying. You can hire a professional crew for the whole record season for less than the interest on an EB29 or even a ASH31. It'll still be a lot of work..

Old timers remember the days when the dutiful wife would follow Her Man around the countryside in the camper, switching direction at each radio call, to be there for the retrieve. Those days are gone, those wives are gone, replaced by machinery (the motor in the back). That is simply the evolution of a sport. Better get used to it.
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 12:12:48 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:25:45 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
Yes, a motor can extend a flight that would have been terminated and get you home. That extension is not a soaring flight, does not count for contests including OLC, so once again, the advantage is convenience. No competitive advantage, no safety advantage. Far from degrading the sport, motorgliders have kept it alive, 80% of new purchases are motorgliders. This is a choice you have made, you seem envious or resentful of people who have made other choices in glider purchase. If you want to see thin skin, look in the mirror. I'm perfectly happy with you flying a non-motorglider. It is you who are criticizing me for making a different choice.
Just as I had predicted earlier in the discussion, we stick to our petrified positions. "Show me evidence... No competitive advantage, no safety advantage..." Denials, denials.

What evidence will you accept? No different mindset? Have you watched the video I pointed to? What the guy says at 26:36

https://youtu.be/hYXeMpQB2l0

Do you really believe Klaus Ohlmann and Jean-Marie Clément would have set their records in the Andes in a "pure" sailplane? Instead, they flew each a Nimbus 4DM, I believe. "No safety advantage" - really? Will you say it's a special case? Well, it is a sort of competition in setting records..

At moments it sounds almost like no-motor pilots should feel sorry for the MG owners with all the troubles they face and how actually disadvantaged they are.

In my opinion, motorgliders are a different branch of soaring and should be treated as such in scoring (including records), as long as a working motor is available as a life-line or just as a convenience help.

Tom BravoMike

Good afternoon Jon, I hope you are doing well and enjoying the afternoon out on the left coast. Let Old Bob give you a fair warning. Be aware, the women of the WSPA might just come after you in reference to the, "Your Man'", comment. You could be called a sexist, a pig, be cursed at, receive hate mail, and many more pleasantries from the radical group. Take care and best soaring. Old Bob