(Kirk Stant) wrote in message . com...
(Todd Smith) wrote in message . com...
1) I believe both the analysis and experience that claims that finishing
exactly at the minimum time gives the best score. (for PST's or TAT's)

True statement. It is also true that finishing at exactly field
elevation at the correct Macready speed for your last thermal gives
you the best speed. With an AST you only have to worry about getting
back faster than the next guy. PSTs and TATs add the requirement to
get back as close to a specific time as you can. It's the price paid
for the flexibility of these tasks. The 15 minute rule doesn't change
that - it just obscures it to the point where it is no longer a simple
matter of crossing the finish line as close to a known time as
possible, its now a matter of juggling how the flight is going then
figuring out what the optimum time and distance is the best to finish.
Practically speaking, for most racers it probably doesn't make a
difference. But intellectually it sucks. As a aside, I actually kind
of like the navigation challenge of nailing the final glide in two
dimensions (altitude and time). But then, my background as an Air
Force navigator may have something to do with that!


I agree, the price paid for the flexibility of PST/TAT tasks is extra
complexity. Having to nail the finish time exactly is an UNINTENDED
result of the implementation of the PST/TAT tasks, not a desired goal.
So the implementation was changed to remove the unintended side-effect.

I think that 15 min rule obscures the effect into practical insignificance,
and I'm not concerned about the intellectual elegance. As an engineer
I like the practical elegance, it's simple and achieves the goal.

2) The ability to time a finish to exact time is not what I want scored.

Then we shouldn't have timed events. It is the price paid for them,
and the 15 minute rule doesn't change that! In some other sports,
solving a problem at an exact time is common. Sailboat racing has the
start line crossing, which you have to hit at the preferred end of a
limited start line, at full speed (which takes a while to get to in a
sailboat), and if you are a second too fast you have to do a penalty
270 turn. Car rallying - huge international sport - has controlled
time checkpoints. So it's not like we are inventing the wheel here.

Car rallying sounds so boring, I don't want sailplane racing to be like that.
I want sailplane racing to be a balls to the walls hunt for lift and distance
The ability to find strong lift, the guts to ignore weak lift and the
brains to know the difference. I don't want it to be about nailing
a time-speed-distance calculation from 50 miles away with my guess
about the thermals that I will find.

Sailboat racing on the other hand is fun and exciting. The start line
dynamics are pretty tight, BUT the distance and speeds are such that a
helmsman can eyeball them and get them right. No computers or GPS required.


3) The 15 min rule, greatly reduces the effect of 1)

It obscures it. But the effect is still there, and the result is
quite a few pilots have been beaten by someone who flew a bit further
but a bit faster. Since the calculations to optimize ones finish time
under the 15 minute rule is way beyond what most people will probably
want to do inflight, they will just ignore it and just "finist a bit
over the min time". In my opinion, that is just to "fuzzy" to be a
valid racing technique. I realize we are talking about just a few
points here, but it only takes one point to lose. Reat Moffat's book,
especially the parts about low loss soaring. Giving away any points
to "chance" is just not acceptable, IMHO.

Currently the only way to hit the finish time exactly is to use a
computer. I doubt many racers can juggle the predicted XC speed,
and the final glide speed, and how far I should head to and from
my next turnpoint (PST) or into the turn area (TAT) without using
pad, pencil and sliderule. It might be an interesting intelectual
game, but its not what I want to be doing. So I would let some
final glide computer tell me "head home NOW to finish at 3:00"

Since I'm letting the computer do it for score=distance/time.
I'll let the computer do it for score=distance/(time+0:15)

The only difference is that the pilot without the computer has
an easier job, just "finish a bit over the min time" and he is
probably very close to the optimum.


4) The 15 min rule is simple, easy to implement and has no bad side effects.
All other rules that have been proposed are more complicated or have
other bad side effects.

I disagree. It sounds simple, but the secondary effects are subtle
and not intuitive; and they are definitely "bad side effects". What
other rules have been proposed? Mine are not rules, but procedures:
longer minimum times (at least 3 hours) and/or lower start heights
(5000 agl max). And less emphasis on timed tasks other that as a
weather option.

We disagree about the negative side-effects of the 15 min rule, and
I think I have described why.

Other proposed rules (not by you, per se) have been. Variable time offsets
depending on actual start height. Having racers finish at start altitude.
Starting at very low altitudes (3000 agl). The variable time adjustents
would be far worse that the fixed 15 min rule, really complicated to score.
The other rules just seem to make it less fun, maybe a better race, but
less fun.

I would like longer tasks if possible. Now about the less emphasis on timed
tasks. It seems us eastern pilots allways are flying on questionable weather.
At Region 1 this year, the CD/weatherman made their best guess and sent
us off, if the tasks weren't MAT/TAT's we would have either had to abandon
the tasks or land out. We just don't seem to have the precictable weather
that the west seems to have.


Thats about it for this specific rule. Now let me make a comment about
the possible background for this intense dislike of this rule. Forgive
me if I misconstrue your opinions or reasons. It seems that you dislike
the PST or TAT tasks in general, and since the 15 min rule is designed
to fix a problem with the PST/TAT that you allready dislike, the reaction
is "ARRGGH, stop tinkering with the damn PST/TAT and just let me fly AST !"

You are somewhat correct. I do dislike the PST and will not fly them -
I don't think they are a valid race task. If I was flying a 1-26 I
might feel different about them, but I race a 15 meter. MATs with
intelligent turnpoints are fun. I do not mind TATs, but they just
don't feel as much as a race as the old ASTs where you knew when
someone started and could tell during the race how you were doing.
With the new 1 mile AST turn area you can barely do that anymore.
Otherwise, TATs can be fun, but they do put a premium on have a really
good computer/moving map (which I don't currently have, but will have
soon), and on fine-tuning final glides and finish times. Hey, if I
didn't like the challenge, I wouldn't be racing. I like to race and
go fast, preferable faster than someone else, and I like having other
gliders around me - the more the merrier. So I obviously dislike any
task change that further spreads the field out. The ARRRGH is really
for the attempts at legislating safety via rules - 500ft at one mile,
for example. I am a firm believer that the pilot is responsible for
his safety, not the rules committee. And until there is a demontrated
danger (and racing finishes aren't, despite what JC says) there
shouldn't be any preemptive rules. Note I say danger, not risk. There
is definitely risk. But I can (and it is my responsibility to) manage
my risk.

I would like the rules not to encourage dangerous activities.
Current race finishes require (for best score) you to fly at MC speed
for the last thermal all the way to the finish line. Thus you are about
1 mile from the airport at 80 knots and 200 feet.
That sounds like no fun at all !


Now, I am a new racing pilot, flying a lower performance glider (Grob 102)
in the northeast (weaker, less predictable lift) so I want flexibility
in tasking so I can get home when the day tanks. (I don't usually have crew)
I also want my fellow club members to get home, they don't have crew either.

I started racing in our club's G-102 - fun little ship. Getting home
is important, no doubt, so there is a place for flexible tasks like
MATs and TATs. It's their implementation that I (and many of my
racing buddies) object to. And we race just about every weekend out
here, even if only two of us show up, so we have plenty of experience
with the new rules!

Maybe you have too much experience with the rules ! Us low time guys
see the 15 min rule as having this effect: It used to be that
I had to finish exactly on min time, but not less ! Now I should just
finish some little time after the min time, but it's not so critical.

That's simpler in my book, but I give away alot more points than the
5-10 I might lose with sub-optimal finish time.



We should have a long discussion about the goals of racing (as has been
suggested here allready), since the different goals you and I have probably
drive the difference between our desired rules.

Agreed - which is pretty much what these multiple parallel threads
have turned into. Good discussions, that hopefully will focus our
racing goals.

Fly fast, fly far, have fun, win the Worlds, then do it again.

Kirk
66

Have fun.
Todd Smith
3S