(Kirk Stant) wrote in message . com...
(Tom Seim) wrote in message

We know that pilots have died attempting these low passes; are you
seriously arguing that their safety records are better than the norm?

Name a pilot who has died during a low pass.

I agree with you that good judgment enhances your safety. I just don't
think that you (and the low passers) have good judgment. You are free
to partake in your high-risk sport, just don't argue that it is safe.
Newbies do look to veterans when formulating the rules that,
eventually, become what we call *judgment*. Bad judgment, for this
reason, must be clearly labled as such because the newbies are reading
these posts.

Tom

You are so full of it! Show me an accident directly caused by a low
pass, while in the low and fast part of it. Don't cheat by using
post-pass stall-spins from pattern altitude - that is a pattern
problem, not a low pass problem.

You, also, should avoid employment as a debater. Character assignation
is a definte debate loser. Present your supporting evidence and let it
speak for itself.

I searched the records and found 4 such accidents. And, no, I will not
exclude pull up stall-spins following the low pass. This is an
essential part of the maneuver which would not have been attempted had
it not been for the low pass. Thus the low pass was directly
contributory to the accident. The accidents a

N117JB 11/3/01
N4458 8/26/00
N597R 10/4/96
N48032 5/26/84

When one considers the fatal accident rate by usual measures, namely
accidents per 100,000 flight hours, this maneuver goes off the Richter
scale. You, and others like you, can consider it perfectly safe, but
you are in a huge state of denial.

BTW: To estimate the accident rate you need to.
1. Estimate the duration of the manouvour in hours.
2. Estimate the number operations per year.
3. Multiply (1) by (2) and by the number of years.
4. Divide the number of accidents, 4, by the result of (3).
5. Multiple (4) by 100,000.

Rate = 4 *100000 / (.0333 * 1000 *9)
= 1333
Assumes 2 min per operation and 1000 operations per year.

Compare this to all other accident rates and you will find there is
not comparison whatsoever. Changing the assumptions, even by an order
of magnitude, doesn't change this.


Bad judgement is attempting something you are not trained for or
experienced enough for.

Good judgement is acquiring the skills
necessary prior to performing any demanding task. Otherwise, anything
can be dangerous.

What training did you get for high speed low passes? It isn't part of
the practical test standards and it certainly wasn't a part of my
training.



I do low passes because they are fun. I do them safely (no overflying
people, structures, lots of speed, no strangers in the pattern, proper
radio calls, etc. Done correctly, they are safe. Just as skydiving,
done correctly, is safe. Just as SCUBA divingm, done correctly, is
safe.

We just had a SCUBA diving fatality over the weekend that involved a
certified instructor.


I can just picture you and a "newbie", standing next to your ancient
2-33, watching somebody doing a nice high-energy low pass in a state
of the art glass ship, water still streaming from it. The newbie says
"Wow, that's cool, someday I want to do that!" And you respond with a
sneer "That guy is just showing off, he's dangerous, has no judgement,
a safe pilot would never do that, blah blah blah - stick to the local
area and 1000ft patterns in the 2-33 like real glider pilots!

And the newbie wanders off, never to be seen again....while the
ex-fighter pilot senior airline captain does a gentle, tail first, low
energy landing in his glass ship.

Well, the guy IS showing off, that's why they do the low passes.

I am not saying that there aren't pilots qualified to do this
maneuver, because there are. The guy that gets into trouble is the one
with 200 hours or is a high time power pilot recently transitioned
into gliders.

I see that I touched a nerve here, but that isn't my concern. Judgment
is the integration of training and experience. Let the record speak
for itself; this maneuver is, deservedly, a high risk one.