"A Lieberman" wrote in message
. ..

Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay?


You wouldn't. You'd receive clearance beyond the previously issued holding
fix before you reached it.



A paper stop is a delay. I am no longer direct.


A paper stop is a delay only on paper, there's no actual delay because
there's no actual hold. That's why it's called a "paper stop".



Define hold.


The Pilot/Controller Glossary defines "hold procedure" as "a predetermined
maneuver which keeps aircraft within a specified airspace while awaiting
further clearance from air traffic control." I'll go with that.



Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If
you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now
doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their
other holding patterns I need to know about?


But you don't do any circles if you receive clearance beyond the holding fix
before reaching it. That's what the controller is anticipating, that's why
he told you no delay was expected and didn't issue an EFC.



FAAO 7110.65


Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


Paragraph 4-6-1.c. I gave you that reference a week ago.



Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line.
You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold
instructions and flying circles.


Let's say you're cleared to a fix on your route some thirty miles or so
ahead. Would you start holding immediately, at your present position, or
would you enter a hold at that fix ahead of you?



Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp

TAKEN from the above website
When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond
the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes
before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am
flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel
or direct entry. I fly a straight line.


Correct. That's a paper stop. That's the situation I've been trying to
explain to you.



You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely
wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB
direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate.
You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need
an EFC.


I never said anything at all like that. What are these references to MBO,
JAN, and MCB? I haven't seen them previously mentioned in this thread.



How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC.


I don't know. How many ways can I say if ATC issues holding instructions
without an EFC because no delay is expected and clears you beyond the
holding fix before you reach it you haven't been delayed because you never
entered the hold?



The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward
the bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is
incorrect.


It's not incorrect, but it's not the situation we're discussing. Read
number 3, that's what we're discussing.