Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:42:51 -0700, wrote:

Go back to TWA 514 in 1974 and they didn't provide much information at
all with vectors to approach courses.


I thought that was more of a training issue. I have been told that up
until that accident, the training at the airlines (at least at TWA) was
that when ATC cleared you for an approach, descent to the initial charted
altitude on the approach plate was safe.


TWA, the Air Force, and some other operators taught that in training, as you
say. Others did not, but even those who didn't were still often in the lurch
with the ATC radar vector procedures in vogue at the time. With the
clearance TWA 514 received, those "who knew better" would have ended up far
too high to land, unless they could have gotten a fairly weak controller to
step them down on the MVA chart. Also, the approach chart was deficient as
to profile portrayal.


I was undergoing my instrument training at that time, and both I and my
instructor were surprised that TWA descended based on that approach
clearance. It was a number of years later that I discovered that their
descent was in accord with the then current TWA airline procedures.

So, you guys would have probably flown to the FAF at 7,000 then descended to
touchdown (300 feet) in some 5 miles. ;-)



There have been more unsafe situations resulting from vectors over the
years than anyone really knows. The NASA database is full of them, but
the FAA ignores the issue. Some are controller errors, some are pilot
errors, and some are a combination of the two.

Concur.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)