(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message

Menachem Begin: "In June 1967 we...had a choice. The Egyptian army
concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was
really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We
decided to attack him." (New York Times, August 21, 1982).

PLEASE read Oren's recent book "Six Days of War" to update yourself
on the realities. While it is true that Nasser would have wanted to
gain a huge political victory without a war if you could get away with
it, reimposing a blockade on Eilat and placing the Egyptian army
into Sinai, the fact is that a plan to attack Israel on May 27th was
derailed by a fluke! Had it gone through as Amer had intended, the
entire thing might have ended very differently indeed.

Look, Khruschev might not have intended war when he placed
missiles and nukes into Cuba either, but things might have ended very
differently if he had decided to call Kennedy's bluff and pushed
through the blockade.

There is even more than that which he had to say, but that was the
result of a quick check--do a google and you can find more.



Try
"The History of the Middle East Wars" by J.N. Westwood for starters.
It is both a lie and totally libellous.


Israel did its utmost NOT to
go
into the West Bank, but King Hussein virtually begged Israel to come
and
conquer it by his inane and insane actions! What you say is the Arab
distortion
of history not unlike "Comical ALi's" assertions that there were no
Marines
in Baghdad.

You are getting your Iraqis mixed up, aren't you? But hey, since you
can't even accept Mr. Begin's words, that is hardly surprising.

Chemical Ali and Comical Ali are two different guys. One murdered using gas,
and the other killed us with his funny Arab lies.

$3 billion? Methinks you are lowballing quite a bit:

"For the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, the U.S. has given
Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion falls under Israel's foreign aid
allotment and $526 million comes from agencies such as the Department
of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon. The $6.72
billion figure does not include loan guarantees and annual compound
interest totalling $3.122 billion the U.S. pays on money borrowed to
give to Israel. It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS
tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli
charities. (Donors claim approximately $1 billion in Federal tax
deductions annually. This ultimately costs other U.S. tax payers $280
million to $390 million.) When grant, loans, interest and tax
deductions are added together for the fiscal year ending in September
30, 1997, our special relationship with Israel cost U.S. taxpayers
over $10 billion."

Source: http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm#Taxpayer

Yeah, a totally honest Arab source.

Nope, a US source, with past members of the Board of Directors
including the likes of the old Senator Fullbright.

Fullbright is as much full of **** as Saddam Hussein.

But
I have no objection to the US cutting off all aid to ISrael if it
also
cuts off all aid to Egypt

But nobody has been bellyaching about how the US aid to egypt is such
a "burden" to Egyptians. So why cut their aid?

Their aid has no rationale at all. They have numerical superiority. THeir
army is stronger now thanks to US aid than ever in history. They have
the Sinai back and ISrael's strategic depth has been totally negated.
They pay no price for their aid; Israel does. Why should Egypt complain.
Israel's aid comes at a heavy price to ISrael.

and all arms sales to all sides in the
Middle East.

Except those that Israel wants to sell to, right? How about Israel
stops selling to governments that pose a potential threat to the US
(like the PRC) in return?

If the US cuts off ALL SALES TO ALL ARAB AND MUSLIM states, then I would
support a similar cutoff of Israeli sales to China, Cuba and Quebec, or anyone
else the US considers a mortal threat.

If the US, France, UK and Russia didn't sell tens of billions of
dollars worth
of arms into the region, Israel wouldn't need a thin dime!

Sorry, but Israel would want each of those thin dimes regardless--hard
to wean a pig after it has suckled at the teat too long.

Only the politicians and greedy contractors. Most Israelis hardly benefit
from this fabulous largesse you think is being lavished upon it.

LOL! On a per capita basis, only to the tune of around $14 thousand
per year (that is per Israeli citizen).

IT MOSTLY GOES STRAIGHT FROM THE US TREASURY TO Boeing and other
defense contractors and THEIR WORKERS!!! Your figures and conclusions
are BOTH bogus!


Do you
think that
Israelis like living in M-1 tanks and Apache helicopters? If the world
wants
to solve the ME problems, let the world ban all arms and aid from the
region!

The israelis don't HAVE any M1 tanks, FYI.

Oh, but Egypt does. It produces them under license. Israel has its own better
tank, the Merkava II.

The statement was they were living in M1 tanks--kind of hard to do
when they have none.

Okay, Apaches and F-16's. Those make very comfortable living rooms for
the men who almost all serve 30 or more days a year inhabiting them.
Some luxury.

The Egyptian army today, thanks to US
training
and arms, is far more dangerous than it ever was under SOviet
tutelage.

And is still no threat to Israel.

Quite a threat. The sale of 54 Harpoon cruise missiles to Egypt,
against which
Israel has no defense,

What do you call those free patriot batteries, and the US-funded
Arrow?

You mean the Patriots that DIDN'T work at all during the first Gulf War
which the Israelis later helped modify and improve for the Americans,


Get a grip, PAC 3 is NOT an Israeli modification.

And you know this how?

or do
you mean the Israeli designed Arrow II that the US did mostly fund, but
mainly to help it get around the US-Soviet ABM treaty since it was an
Israeli project?

LOL! That's a hoot. And that is NOT the reason--try again.

Ha! The simple fact is that Israel has the only working theater ABM
system in the world at the moment, that has passed all of its tests
with flying colors. And it was designed by Israelis and not by Americans.
The US put up most of the money and got control over its sale and full
access to the design and technology. A bargain if there ever was one.

could be a very serious threat, particularly if
the
Egyptians acquired nukes.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts....and the Israelis already HAVE
nukes.

So do the Americans, thanks to Jewish scientists used during WWII.

Groannn....so you want to make this a racial/religious argument?

The JEwish nation-in-exile was THE major contributor to the creation
and development of nuclear power, period!!! Israel has a thousand times
more RIGHT to nuclear WMD than the US or the UK. Indeed, the US and UK
absconded the patents from Leo Szilard.


ANd there are those in the Egyptian
parliament
calling on Egyptian development of nukes. In fact, the EGyptian army
has
never been a greater threat to Israel than today.

Bull. Pure, unadulterated BS. Even the israeli government does not put
out this kind of farcificial nonsense.

How much of it do you read? Do you read the Israeli Hebrew press? It is a
MAJOR concern, but Israel cannot press it as the US will do nothing much
about it, and Israel won't get anywhere with it. So it does so quietly.
It doesn't go to the press with every concern or complaint.

It ain't a major threat. If you think it is, provide proof otherwise.

Israel doesn't accept your word for it. Go read the Israeli military
press.

Because you're not an Israeli and you are not threatened. But when the
Russians put a handful of missiles and nukes 90 miles offshore, the US
was ready to go to full-stop war. Israel, just like the US, is not going to
put its survival in anybody else's hands. Anyone within hitting distance of
Israel who doesn't recognize it, or is openly hostile to it, and is producing
WMD, is playing with fire as Israel will not wait for death to suddenly
arrive. That's why the US is doing what it is in the ME, trying to avoid
nuclear war, which will happen if Israel feels mortally threatened.

You are drifting further and further off the line of discussion....

Brooks