On Mar 4, 8:06 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:





On Mar 3, 10:59 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day
or night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will
not be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the
very definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks.
Please don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight
planning" when it is your reponse that is not adequately thought
out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to
be *exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not
invalidate a rule.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, these areas are not the exceptional areas. Large chucks of this
country falls ine areas where MEF is simply not attainable or
practical in small airplanes.

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

The field elevation of Colorado Springs Airport is about 6200ft. The
MEF is 12000 ft and higher. If you believe that, just go out there
some day and see for yourself how many night VFR operations are
conducted there well below the MEF.

Interesting that you should mention this area, as I was out there last
summer, and am somewhat familiar with it. I was doing some mountain flying
around Magdelena/Socorro, and have spent time in Santa Fe, Taos, Silver
Springs, and Ruidoso as well. So, for those who are unfamiliar with the
area, I'd add the following details that may make your story appear a bit
differently.

If you're flying *west* out of Colorado Springs Airport, say to Nevada,
then you'll have to deal with the Rockies and the MEF you're indicating.
For a good distance to the north, south, and to the Manzano range in the
east it's a different story entirely, and if you follow the interstate
it's easy to fly a MEF at around 2000' AGL. Someone mentioned flying from
Alburquerque to Santa Fe. Unless their planned route takes them through
the Sandias, they also will not be doing any "mountain flying" (again,
just follow the interstate). And, full moons are the exception to night
time; 12 vs. 365. So, to be relevant to the topic at hand, I'd like to
know if you're suggesting that taking any of the *mountain flying* routes
at night are safe, good planning, as your responses imply? ;-)

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As you mentioned, a flight from Albuquerque to Santa Fe does not
involve what we normally consider as mountain flying. However, you
will be flying in an area where the MEF is high, and your cruise
altitude is well below the mountain peaks. The original posted claimed
that flying below the MEF under night VFR was an example of poor
planning. My point was that there was nothing wrong with that, it is
done all the time, and there is no immediate danger of colliding with
terrain just because you are below the MEF at night under VFR.

As to whether any mountain flying routes are safe at night, it
depends. You would not want to, for example, fly to Glenwood Springs,
CO (GWS) at night because the traffic pattern is way too close to high
terrain. A wide pattern will put you in the path of the rocks. But go
20 miles to the west to Rifle, CO and it is safe to fly at night. Both
airports share the same MEF, and their airport elevations are almost
the same. One is safe at night, the other is not.

To reiterate my point, MEF cannot be used as a blanket rule for flight
planning purposes. One has to know more about mountain flying tactics
to make an intelligent decision. For the flat lander, it may be wise
to avoid these areas altogether at night until they get some
instruction.