Juvat wrote:

Ed Rasimus posted:

In "Clashes" Michel is dealing with MiG engagements, not with air
defense alerts. Clashes has a lot of good research behind it and
Marshall has the experience to back up that of which he writes.

True...but wouldyou acknowledge that F-102s did fly CAPs and not
simply sitting cocked at the end of a runway? And can you agree that
the F-102 shot down by the MiG-21 in Feb 1968 was flying CAP?

I would acknowledge that F-102s flew. I would acknowledge that F-102s
even did some ersatz ground attack. I would assert that in 150 North
Vietnam missions in Rolling Thunder, Linebacker I & II, I never once
was supported by an F-102 CAP. Not once. I never was supported by and
F-102 escort, nor in a package with an F-102 sweep either. Never had
an F-102 participate in any NVN mission that I was on.

Certainly there were F-4s on alert at Udorn and absolutely they were
flying CAP, but CAP is a different mission than air defense and alert
can be for a number of mission options--I sat alert at Korat in 105's,
but that was SAR and ground attack alert. And, I sat alert at Korat in
F-4Es, but that also was for ground attack.

So taking this just a little bit farther...if they were still in place
at Udorn in 1972 they just might have flown CAPs, they might have even
practiced some ACM vs the local air-to-air sqdns (13th, 555th, and TDY
523d, etc). Yet when the F-8s came to town to play, no mention of
giving the F-102s a taste. No mention of using F-102s for DACM for the
benefit of the air-to-air guys. [FWIW, Ritchie does say that the 432d
selected crews for the air-to-air mission into RP-6.]

I doubt that they would have flown and briefed, scheduled ACM. It was
simply against AF policy to fly dissimilar in those days. And, it must
be considered that the mission was to fly combat, not to train locally
in theater. There was the occasional hassle during RTB, but no
scheduled, briefed, training objectives established DACM.

Certainly Ritchie is correct. In July of '72, the 7th AF DO toured the
Thai bases. He directed that since the Linebacker mission was
critical, each base would establish "primary Linebacker crews"--folks
who specialized in a particular mission, who would be first scheduled
for Pack VI every day and who would carry the load. That meant Udorn
established specialized A/A crews. It's the same policy that had me
assigned as a primary F-4 Hunter/Killer SEAD guy.

I honestly don't know what unit was deployed, but I'm fairly confident
in the recollection that 102s were still in SEA in '72.

I certainly like Thompson. His compilation of history in "To Hanoi and
Back" is excellent.

Fair enough...since I got you to acknowledge that Thompson just might
have his **** in one sock, look at page 309 of his book. Fourth entry
down...Udorn...number of F-102s there in 1967 = 6, number there in
July 1972 = ZERO. Number of F-102s in SEA in July 1972 = ZERO.

I'll concede. Could be. I'm working strictly from memory. A good
memory generally, but capable of error.

He could be mistaken, his data is from a HQ document and not an eye
witness account.

Still, I like to deal with people who actually
flew the missions more than folks who are familiar with the bowels of
the AU library and how to run a micro-fiche machine.

I resemble that remark...Fair enough...Idle --*Chaff* --*Flare* -- I'm
just having a problem wondering whose "there i was story" to believe.

T'was Ronaldus Maximus that said, "trust, but verify." Can't argue
with that.

If the 366th moved out of Danang in July of '72 at the peak of
Linebacker, it's a surprise to me.

Ummm, respectfully are you being sarcastic with the last part? See
Thompson page 223...talks about the movement of the 366th from Da Nang
to Takhli in June of 1972.

So I ask the question again, sincerely, who do we believe? And why am
I doing all the citations/research?

OK, I knew that Tahkli got the 4th deployment for S-J when the base
was re-activated. Didn't realize that the Gunfighters moved there as
well.

And, you're doing the research because you love it!


Juvat

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038