Guy Alcala wrote:

Dale wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

chutes (in
That's another reason why ball turret
gunners
had such a high casualty rate; there was no room in the turret for them to
have
their chutes, so they had to first make it back up into the fuselage, get
their
chute and put it on before they could jump. The waist gunners had it far
easier.

Hmmm. From what I've been told statistically the ball was one of the more
survivable positions..regarless of what the silly History Channel "Suicide
Mission" show stated.

I've seen claims of that, but the stats don't seem to back it up, at least for the
B-17.

Okay, I've been able to retrieve a copy of Martin Middlebrook's "The
Schweinfurt-Regensburg Mission," August 17th, 1943, which includes a breakdown of B-17
crewmen killed by crew position on that day. Middlebrook gives the following info (info
is casualties in 4th Bomb Wing - Regensburg/1st Bomb Wing - Schweinfurt/Total number of
casualties)

Killed 34/68/102

POW 133/248/381

Evaders* 13/25/38

Interned 20/-/20

Rescued from sea 40/20/60

Total 240/361/601

*only includes those who actually made it back to England.
Broken down another way, this is officers/enlisted:

Killed 40/62

PoW 154/227

Evaders 13/25

Interned 8/12

Rescued from Sea 24/36

Total 239/362

He then goes on to write:

"Concentrating now on the mortality rate, one is immediately impressed with the high
proportion of men who survived from B-17s shot down during these daylight operations.
On average less than two men in each standard crew of ten died in the B-17s lost that
day; the actual figure was 1.7 men per crew. Even if the eleven a/c which either
ditched or crash-landed without any loss of life are excluded, the mortality rate only
creeps up to a little over two in the crew of ten. But these overall figures could hide
large variations. The 91st bomb Group lost thirty-six men killed in its ten missing
crews; the 381st had only five deaths in their eleven. This relatively high survival
rate was not unusual for 8th AF operations; the outcome on other B-17 missions was
roughly similar. A comparison with the survival chances in shot-down RAf night bombers
shows almost the reverse position. The mortality rate in 213 RAF bombers shot down in
RAF raids to Hamburg (four raids), Peenemunde and Nuremberg was 83 per cent!
Unfortunately it would require a lengthy essay to explain the different factors
involved."

The relative danger of the crew positions in a shot-down B-17 can also be presented.
The following crew members were killed in B-17s on the Regensburg and Schweinfurt
mission:

Pilot 15

Co-pilot 12

Navigator 6

Bombardier 6

Engineer/Gunner 11

Radio/Gunner 8

Ball Gunner 14

Right Waist Gunner 11

Left Waist Gunner 8

Tail Gunner 10

[Guy Note: this only totals 101. A pilot died in unusual circumstances on the ground,
probably shot and killed while trying to evade capture. He was armed and seen running
by other members of his crew before he was shot, and according to them he was the type
who didn't plan to be taken alive.]

". . . There is not so much difference here from night operations. The RAF bomb aimer
was the safest man in his crew, and pilots -- who have to remain at the controls until
other crew members have parachuted -- always ran the greatest risk. The higher figures
above for the ball-turret gunner reflect the known danger of that cramped and isolated
position from which escape was so difficult. RAF bombers did not have ball turrets."
----------------------------------------------------

[Me again]

Naturally, this can hardly be considered applicable to the entire war, but it is a
fairly good sample size (from 60 a/c shot down) and probably gives a fair representation
of the relative odds for each crewmember given the situation in August 1943. Most of
the tactics, techniques and weapons also used by the Germans in 1944 and 1945 were in
use by that time, although the balance between fighter and flak losses obviously shifted
in 1944 and 1945, which might change the survival odds for some of the positions.

Guy