On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:28:16 -0800, "BT" wrote:

mmm.. I'd be interested to know the reference for "that reg"... cause they
don't pay attention to it around here.

You ask, you get:
FAA Order 7110.65R (the ATC 'bible') Section 9 "Class B Service Area,
Terminal", para 7-9-3b. Currently they have to vector aircraft
outside the Class B and back in; with the extension they won't have
to. Please read the NOTE under b...this means they should be keeping
the aircraft at or above 5000'MSL/4200' AGL in our area....actually a
BENEFIT to us.
FYI, a "large turbine aircraft" is over 12,500 lbs...even a Beech 1900
is well over that...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7-9-3. METHODS
a. To the extent practical, clear large turbine
engine-powered airplanes to/from the primary airport
using altitudes and routes that avoid VFR corridors
and airspace below the Class B airspace floor where
VFR aircraft are operating.

NOTE- Pilots operating in accordance with VFR are expected to
advise ATC if compliance with assigned altitudes,
headings, or routes will cause violation of any part of the
CFR.

b. Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace
after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and
reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to
extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for
spacing.

NOTE-
14 CFR Section 91.131 states that “Unless otherwise
authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine
engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for
which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate
at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace
area while within the lateral limits of that area.” Such
authorization should be the exception rather than the rule.
REFERENCE FAAO 7110.65, Deviation Advisories, Para 5-1-10.

c. Aircraft departing controlled airports within
Class B airspace will be provided the same services
as those aircraft departing the primary airport.


I brought it up at a safety meeting with ATC Radar supervisor in
attendance.. and was told point blank.. we put them where we need to.

That's what what they do NOW, but once they have the extension,
apparently they will be keeping the RJs at 5K MSL overhead vs 3K MSL
(right in with the gliders) now.


I "was around" when the first "Terminal Control Areas", (TCA) now Class B
were designed.. the idea was that airliners and "jets" would enter in the
top and funnel down to the primary airport.. they would also exit out the
top. Does not happen..

Sounds like they are going back to that idea

The fuel conservation descents start the glide farther out.. instead of
"keep'em high and drop'em in"..
When landing Rwy 1 at LAS, the min Radar Vector Altitude is about 8300 right
over our airport and that's where they want to be. Class B there is 80B90
but they continue the descent down out of the bottom of Class B. Or they
have been vectored from the northeast and exit the Class B only to reenter
at the 20nm fix on final right over the glider airport.

Another stated reason for the change...they want 'em to enter the
Bravo ONCE and never leave til they take off again. ALPA is pushing
this...they want that extra "protected airspace"


The Glide Slope into LAS Rwy 1 is 3.4 degree, at 361ft per nm, 20 nm = 7220
AGL, LAS elevation is 2181, so that equates to about 9400MSL at the Class B
entry.. but ATC always has them 1000ft lower. And if ATC lets them fly a
"Visual Approach, they get down to 7K MSL.

The CLE Rwy6 ILS is a 3 degree glide slope or 318ft / nm, or at 20nm, 6360
AGL, CLE airport elev is 791MSL or at 20nm on a 3 degree glide path the
airliner would like to be at about 7100ft MSL and at 30nm at 10300MSL... so
why do they need a 50B80 all the way out to 30nm?

Considering they are dropping the RJ's down to 3K MSL at 20+ miles out
now, I figure it's for a little extra elbow room during VFR ops, +
room needed to 'set up' for PRM approach or staggered simultaneous ILS
to our close-spaced runways..

--Don
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Glider & CFI wannabe
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...smack-smack-smack-smack..."