It's interesting to note that although stall recovery should be thought
of as something done with a minimum loss of altitude, the emphasis on
recovery should always be placed on the regaining of angle of attack as
PRIME to recovery.
I am one instructor who strongly believes that instructors should
consider altering their approach to teaching stall to focus more
strongly on recovering angle of attack than recovering in minimum
altitude. Stalls entered at low altitude have many times resulted in
secondary stall entry or a mushed recovery followed by ground impact by
pilots who COULD have lowered the nose and held it down there a bit
longer than they did, using the air under them to better advantage and
giving themselves the needed time to regain angle of attack and smooth
airflow as they attempted a recovery. But because they had been taught
that ALTITUDE rather than AOA was the killer, they recovered trying to
save altitude, when in reality what was needed was to USE THE AVAILABLE
ALTITUDE CORRECTLY....and save the airplane.

Toward this goal, I strongly encourage all CFI's to reference AOA in
stall recovery. This doesn't mean INSTEAD of altitude, but it does mean
that to recover the airplane, you absolutely HAVE to restore AOA, and at
low altitude that might very well mean using available altitude to the
last foot of air to do that.
I have always taught stall recovery both with and without power. The FAA
requires power. I want the student to see the difference and at the same
time be able to stress that it's the ANGLE OF ATTACK that saves your
butt. The strong lesson here is that you USE altitude......you don't try
to minimize it at the expense of angle of attack.
Sounds like you had a fine instructor.



Private wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
wrote:
A point that is critical to make here is that it's not necessary that
you actually fly outside the 30/60 on any constant basis for you to be
comfortable there. What IS important is that although the vast majority
of your flying will remain inside the 30/60 zone, your training has
resulted in your not being uncomfortable outside your normal area.
...
Dudley Henriques
I'm probably much luckier than many in that my club has both an
Aerobat and an instructor available with an aerobatics rating (or
endorsement, whatever it's called). She has me working through the
Kershner book as a prereq. I plan for a 5 or 6 hour course this April/
May.

Speaking directly to the discomfort outside of 30/60: I had moderate
nerves flying slow at first, but after a time or two of dual I found
myself settled. I became at ease with power-off stalls, as the
aircraft just wasn't doing any bucking or dipping. But I didn't get
comfortable with power-on -- even though I was comfortable in the
reverse power curve in steady slow flight with the stall horn buzzing
constantly. Still, solo I was quite nervous with power-on stalls. When
it came time to really practice that before the checkride I had a hard
time finding the same calm place I was at with power-off stalls. The
power-on has a harder break in the Aerobat; I had trouble holding
course and keeping coordinated. On one flight I got rather exasperated
with myself and thought "dang it, this is an airplane, it's okay if it
banks and pitches and rolls about!", then, after doing some clearing
turns I did some steeper banks while power-off in a moderately steep
nose down attitude (less than 30 -- but definitely far from straight
and level).

I kept doing that until I settled down. Even though I knew before I
did those steeper maneuvers that I could recover from them (they were
"unusual attitudes"), nevertheless ACTUALLY performing them and
recovering made a huge difference to my comfort level.

After than I was able to do better power-on stalls and not have the
nerves about when the plane would suddenly lose lift. They weren't
perfect but I didn't have the nerves anymore.

By the way, though the checkride DE did not make be do a power-on to
full stall break, my instructor always did. In retrospect, though it
was more uncomfortable at first, I'm glad she always made me do to a
full break stall. If I didn't, she'd say "let's do that again", rather
sternly.

Oddly, I was more frightened of the spin from power-on than power off
(which may be reasonable, I'm not sure); even though the two spins she
demonstrated for me were done power-off. I think maybe because I felt
it was easier to stay coordinated power-off, without all those extra
precession and p-factor effects twisting the plane, thus was at lower
risk to a flight condition I had not myself recovered from.

For me there's a mental wall of nerves/fear when I have not done a
manuever myself -- even if I know how in theory. For spin, PARE. But I
haven't done it; thus, a wall exists that I have to bust through.

That is one big motivator for Aerobatic training, but not the only.
All told, I just want to understand control inputs to make the plane
do what I want it to do regardless of my orientation in the sky.

Your assessment of your entire situation sounds completely normal to me in
every respect. It's a healthy attitude, and as well a good summation based
on sound principle.
You're right. Power on stalls have a natural tendency to make newbies more
nervous than power off. The nose attitude is generally higher, it's
louder, (this is a factor BTW), the break is cleaner and more sudden, and
the recovery can seem hurried to a newbie who is experiencing the recovery
under stress.
This can be partially addressed by allowing the aircraft to slow as the
nose is raised to normal climb speed before climb power is applied.
This will generally cause the break with a lower nose attitude which can
show an immediate improving effect on a newbie.

One thing that will definitely help you develop some added confidence
doing power on stalls is in actively changing your attitude up front about
them.
Think about this for a second. You know what to expect, and you know the
airplane will recover with normal recovery control application, so the
only thing left that is contributing to your apprehension is the stall
itself.
Think for a moment what would happen if instead of getting that sudden
adrenalin flow you have been experiencing as your system reacts as the
stall breaks, you were instead mentally and physically AHEAD of the stall
break and now EXPECTING it, and more importantly, WANTING IT!
You have just changed your entire interface with the stall. When it
happens, your system is waiting for it; you react as trained, and recover
the airplane.
The ingredient that has been added to your equation is simply EXPECTATION.
You do several power on stalls in this frame of mind and I guarantee that
you will not be apprehensive again when dealing with power on stalls.

Just something to think about before you fly again :-))

--
Dudley Henriques


I agree, lots of good stuff in this thread.

I would (humbly) like to suggest that some of the apprehension of performing
and dealing with stalls is due to the feeling that they must be corrected
immediately and with minimal loss of altitude.

At my request, my first two training flights were almost completely devoted
to stalls and especially spins. By the end of the second lesson I was able
to recover on a heading that my instructor requested after the full
incipient stage of the spin had developed. We had lots of altitude and a
stable spinning Super Cub which allowed me to experience that the fully
developed spin was really quite stable and that I had the ability to stop it
whenever I wanted even to the point of recovering on (=fairly close to) a
desired heading. It allowed me time to look at the airspeed indicator and
confirm that we were in a stall and not a spiral and to note that the VSI
showed a relatively slow decent rate. I could also check the T&B to note
the reported spin direction and to confirm that this was also what my eyes
were telling me. It made me understand that I was always in control of the
situation and helped me with spatial awareness and seemed to slow the
experience down somewhat so that I had lots of time to internalize what was
happening and what my eyes were seeing.

Later in my training I was better able to enjoy and comprehend the
demonstration and execution of the full range of accelerated stalls, and
this gave me the confidence to perform and enjoy all these maneuvers while
solo. I need to note that the above only applies to stable spinning
aircraft and that one of the problems of learning in a more modern and
therefore dumbed down aircraft like the C172 is that they will not spin long
enough to really experience a stable fully developed spin and IMHE will
spiral out of the spin far too quickly, and that is a flight condition that
I do NOT suggest should be savored or not corrected immediately.

Once a person is fully comfortable with the full regime of stalls and spins
then stall demonstration and recovery on heading and with minimal loss of
altitude is IMHE a much simpler exercise. I do not mean to suggest that I
am in any way special, but only that I was fortunate to have had instructors
who taught me that there was little to fear on the left side of the
envelope.

Happy landings,




--
Dudley Henriques