On 2010/07/20 10:44 PM, bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 1:59 pm, Eric wrote:
On 7/20/2010 12:24 PM, bildan wrote:





On Jul 20, 8:35 am, EvValentin808
wrote:

Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

No doubt this thread will have a long run.

My view is that all gliders are 'forgiving' - if flown by a qualified
pilot. OTOH, unqualified pilots can wreck any glider no matter how
'forgiving'.

In any event, 'forgiving' handling qualities has little to do with the
safety of the pilot. Any glider, no matter how 'forgiving' can be
flown into a very unforgiving Earth. They will still collide with
mountains and other gliders. Trees and other obstacles can still
wreck them. The number of accidents with poor handling qualities as
the primary cause is virtually non-existent.

I don't agree at all. A qualified pilot can compensate for "unforgiving"
qualities, but that doesn't make the glider "forgiving". Some gliders
have very poor glide path control, some spin easily, with little
warning, and don't recover quickly. Put the CG too far aft, and most
gliders are likely not "forgiving".

Right, and the only thing that makes these gliders 'forgiving' is
pilot skill. My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small. After all, they have to go
through the same certification process. (Experimental glider
excluded, of course.)


Even a qualified pilot can be distracted, or tired, or hypoxic, or
dehydrated, and the outcome is likely to be much better in a "forgiving"
glider than one that isn't.

You really think mere benign handling qualities will save this guy?
He's likely to fly his 'forgiving' glider into a tree.

What's REALLY unforgiving is nature. Make enough mistakes and 'ol
Mother Nature will kill or maim you. She's merciless. Her goal is
just cleaning the gene pool.

I don't think the "Mother Nature" is the main factor in most glider
accidents. Look at how many happen near the airport and in good weather.

Mother nature = gravity. Gravity is involved in all accidents.

So, forget handling qualities and worry about flying skills. They're
FAR more important.

There is no reason at all to "forget about" something that you can buy
and have it work for you every time you fly. Get a glider that won't
surprise you, even if you make a mistake, get the flying skills you need
to handle it, and work constantly on the judgment that will keep you out
of bad situations.

I don't think you can "buy" safety - (except by hiring a highly
proficient pilot to fly you around in a two seater). A lot of pilots
who have tried to buy it are dead. Safety is something you have to
earn with training, practice and RESPECT for the danger.
Hi Bill

I'm with Eric here. My first glass was (still is) a Std Cirrus. Nimble,
responsive, fun to fly. Unforgiving of inattention. Easy to spin (and
correct) Landings are always challenging with the pitch sensitivity, and
low washout tips.
Second is a Kestrel 19 - much heavier, more complex, big wings. I know
which one I have to worry more in. Specifically about my performance -
not the glider - About getting dehydrated or simply tired, about making
a mistake at a critical point. And you do get more tired because you can
never relax in the Cirrus.

Skill is not everything. Attentiveness and luck also play a role, as do
things like the relative effort required to safely conduct a flight.

If you fly something with exemplary handling, like a (Duo)Discus or a
K21 or a LS4 it is a lot easier to be safe.

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