On Aug 9, 9:48*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/9/2010 11:23 AM, brianDG303 wrote:



On Aug 9, 7:12 am, *wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56 am, Mike
wrote:

On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
* *With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

Mike and Renny,
a good discussion of the macro view of FLARM and ADS-B. Another view
is more personal, for example in my situation- I fly a lot of ridge
and mountain in a very narrow altitude band and a lot of clouds. There
is not a lot of power traffic in those conditions. I have a
transponder but I don't see the Transmit light going off very often
and I suspect I am not getting very many radar paints down in the
rocks and trees where I like to fly. My greatest risk is from the six
other gliders I share the area with, which do not have transponders
and will never get them at the current costs; in fairness my threat to
them is even higher as I am a low hour pilot. FLARM would go a long
way to reducing the risks and at a reasonable cost; PowerFlarm would
be my choice as it would also provide protection from ADS-B and
transponder equipped threats, but at twice the cost the installed base
in my situation would be very much reduced and I stand a better chance
of talking my potentially deadly friends into investing in FLARM. 2020
is not soon enough. It is not soon enough for the pilots killed on a
regular basis at contests, which we seem to simply accept as an
unavoidable risk.

With that in mind Mike's statement that FLARM isn't of use (for me)
would not be correct. In 2004 my club lost two gliders and a pilot in
a collision that would not have happens if they had had FLARM. How do
you calculate that cost?

Brian

Why not convince your fellow pilots to invest in the Navworx ADS-B
transceiver that is now shipping? *FLARM in the US is a dead end. *ADS-B
is the future. *If you invest in a Navworx type of device, not only
would you see each other, but you will also see other ADS-B equipped GA
aircraft, and if you are flying within range of a ground station, ALL
transponder equipped aircraft.

--
Mike Schumann

Ah maybe becasue they draw 0.8 amps, cost $2,495 each, don't warn
about traffic threats themselves, and are not compatible with any
traffic display systems used in glider cockpits. Besides those minor
little inconveniences your suggestion to buy this specific ADS-B UAT
transceiver is wonderful.

---

Anyhow back to the factual stuff... Flarm in the USA is not a dead-
end. Flarm in the USA has been at a dead-end and that is about to
change. There has been no Flarm product in the USA, that is changing
with the import of the PowerFLARM device. The folks behind Flarm and
it's importers have specifically focused on delivering the PowerFLARM
product to the USA market that combines all the capabilities and
compatibility of FLARM with an ADS-B 1090ES traffic receiver.
PowerFLARM seems a very smart way for piltos to adopt FLARM today and
then move towards an ADS-B future.

Folks who've seen my ADS-B talks at PASCO seminars etc. will know I am
concerned about the adoption of Flarm devices. Concerned that people
invest in a Flarm protocol only device and then put off any ADS-B
future. Or that islands of Flarm adoption occur in some places, ADS-B
in others etc. and then in many years time we end up with
geographically/regionally fragmented adoption. I'm also concerned that
all these devices, especially anything ADS-B, is too complex for many
pilots to understand and I don't want to see pilots say buying an ADS-
B transceiver or a Flarm device thinking that is all they need for any
traffic scenario, or that it will make them visible to airliner TCAS,
etc. For these reasons I think the adoption of the PowerFLARM device
*with* 1090ES receiver capability and not a Flarm only device is the
correct way to go for the USA market.

Anecdotally there is really nobody I know who is seriously working on
installing pure ADS-B in gliders in the short term, however I know
several pilots who have already pre-ordered their PowerFLARM and
several clubs and FBOs thinking about fleet wide adoption. The serious
ADS-B "geeks" I know who are currently or wanting to run ADS-B data-
out with their Trig TT-21 seem to be mostly interested in doing so for
future use with a PowerFLARM ADS-B receiver.

To operate as an ADS-B traffic in the USA the glider will need an ADS-
B transmitter, as owners of a PowerFLARM want to do this they will
need to add a Mode S 1090ES transponder or upgrade their current Mode
S transponder or add a UAT transmitter or transceiver. If really low
cost GA targeted ADS-B transceivers do appear it may still make most
sense to just use the UAT transmitter part of that transceiver to send
the ADS-B location and to use the 1090ES receiver in the PowerFLARM
since it does the FLARM glider tuned traffic threat analysis, is
compatible with current glider cockpit displays etc. So to my mind
buying a PowerFLARM i the opposite to a dead-end, to me it is the
*only* viable ADS-B glider traffic receiver product on the market, and
you get a full FLARM-FLARM protocol device as well. Unless something
radical happens that I do not see, I expect PowerFLARM to be the most
common product over the next several years through which some early
adopter glider pilots will receive ADS-B traffic data in the USA. But
currently pricing for a full ADS-B system will keep those wanting to
use ADS-B down to early/bleeding edge adopters.

---

We seem to be focused here on glider-on-glider threats, I just want to
remind people that near dense airline and fast jet traffic a
transponder today is the only technology that provides both visibility
to ATC and compatibility with the TCAS systems carried by most those
airliners and jets. TCAS does not detect UAT ADS-B transmitters but
will see 1090ES transmitters (it sees the transponder). We need to be
really careful in promoting any technology as to what exact problem it
is good at solving. Remember the answer is 42, now if we could just
work out the question.

ADS-B has potential benefits such as long range tracking for SAR and
maybe contest tracking etc., precision "visibility" of/to GA aircraft
esp. outside current radar coverage, some long-range augmentation to
TCAS for visibility of gliders to airliners and fast jets etc. as
those aircraft deploy combined CDTI and TCAS systems etc. but by
itself it falls short at the two extremes of glider-on-glider
scenarios and airline-on-glider scenarios, yet these are the two
scenarios that ADS-B is often thought about for use in gliders. We
need to consider the appropriate use of Flarm, transponders (and PCAS
etc.) and ADS-B. No single one of these technologies really
effectively help addresses/minimize collisions threats through the
entire gamut of glider-on-glider through glider-on-GA to glider-on-
airliner and fast jet scenarios.

Darryl