On Sep 9, 6:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Sep 8, 9:25*pm, Andy wrote:





On Sep 8, 5:45*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Sep 8, 12:36*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:

On Sep 8, 10:07*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Sep 8, 10:50*am, LOV2AV8 wrote:

As long as we're discussing a rules change and not a score change for
the day. *Many other contestants aborted at the first turn point
rather than the second turn point because of the Class C airspace
conflict with getting home.

Randy

What day of what contest was this? What was the issue with going
around class C? How was it impossible to continue the course,
impossible to go around class C, but easy to go over? I'm not being
hostile, I'd just like to go look at the task and results. Stated in
the abstract it all seems so unlikely, so it would be good to know the
practical circumstance.

John Cochrane

This was the first day of the Southwest Soaring Championships flown
from Tucson Soaring Club. *The CD set a long and challenging task that
proved too long, mostly because of a late start. *Only one contestant
completed the task, three landed out and the rest (including me)
abandoned.

We routinely fly over Tucson Class C as it's often the quickest and
safest way home from tiger country.

Mike

I'm still trying to get a sense of whether "this was a real problem"
or whether this is some hypothetical question.

The SSA contest report says this was an area task from El Tiro to
Amado, southwest of Tucson, with a 25 mile circle around Amado. The
direct courseline to Amado doesn't intersect the Tucson class C,
though it does come close; the Tucson class C is east of courseline.
Looking at the chart, I would have flown the line of high ground even
further west of courseline, ending up at Keystone peak or thereabouts..
My options would have been the line of airports, Ruby Star, Flying
Diamond, Ryan, Taylor, all again a bit west of courseline and heading
right back to El Tiro and the second turnpoint. I just don't see how
anyone could have gotten stuck behind the Tucson class C. And it looks
like the CD did *a good job of setting a course that really didn't
cause a problem.

So, tell the story. Where were you guys that you really felt this was
the only safe option? How did you get there? Or is this all
hypothetical?

There is a lot of complaining around here about rules being too
complicated. Carving out an exception for class C overflights in
abandoned tasks is certainly going to be complicated. So it matters
whether this is a real problem, or just the beginning of winter what-
ifs.

John Cochrane

John,

I think you've mistaken the Southwest Soaring Championships (a non-
sanctioned local contest) with the Region 9 that was also held at El
Tiro. The task in question was:

* ID * Name * * * * * * * * Distance (Miles) * Radius
* *106 * 106 Waterman * * * * * 0.00 * * * * * * *5.0
* * 62 * 062 MtWshngt * * * * *77.13
* * 12 * 012 Benson * * * * * 126.93
* * 13 * 013 Biospher * * * * 176.85
* * *1 * 001 EL TIRO * * * * *209.27 * * * * * * *1.0

I have a few recollections of making long final glides to El Tiro from
the east. Given the distances involved a long, flat glide would
occasionally get you close to the top of the Class C and in that
instance going around could run you out of glide distance.
Disclaimer: My recollection is decades old and based on the old ARSA
configuration at Tucson IIRC.

9B

Well, if it's non-sanctioned, go ahead and make your own rules, or
exceptions!

John Cochrane- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ok, just to makes things clear:

The task was a speed task, first turnpoint way south of Tucson (Mt
Washington, I think, near Nogales), second turnpont Benson (east of
Tucson, directly across the Class C from El Tiro), then Biosphere
(north of Tucson), then El Tiro. By the time I got near Benson, the
day was dying and I decided to abort the task rather than head up into
a possible landout. At that point, I found a climb that allowed me to
get well above the Class C and gave me final glide back to El Tiro. I
contacted approach, overflew the "closed airspace", and landed back at
El Tiro.

I understand (and agree with completely) the rule about no overflying
closed airspace WHEN ON TASK. And I have no problem with losing my
score and getting penalized for this flight, because I misinterpreted
the rule that is clear as currently written and decided to take what I
considered a safe and legal route home. My question was about whether
the rule should be amended IN THE FUTURE to allow legal overflight (or
even, with clearance, flight through) controlled airspace during part
of a contest flight that is no longer "on task" i.e. an aborted return
from a task as there is no competitive benefit for doing so (unless
one considers avoiding a long retrieve a competitive advantage ;^).

Up side? Safety, convenience, full use of the airspace we are allowed
to use, etc. Downside? Scoring complication, rule complication, more
chances for airspace violation.

My opinion is that it's ultimately the pilot's, not the SSA's, job to
comply with the FARs - since it's the pilot that gets hammered if he
gets a violation, no the SSA. And scoring complication is a software
issue, nowadays - we already score to the point of a task abort, so
"added complication" seems a bit of a stretch. I totally support the
SSA requirement to stay out of closed airspace when on task, since a
pilot should not be tasked through airspace that he may not be able to
legally fly through, or require equipment he may not have.

Anyway, I just thought this situation was interesting enough to
warrant some discussion - especially since it is a bit of a regional
problem (I can't see this being a problem back East!).

Cheers,

Kirk
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