"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
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"robert arndt" wrote in message
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The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

We're talking war and power here. The Chinese human waves forced us
back until we eventually reached the starting point- the 38th
parallel. MacArthur could have defeated them in 1950 if he was allowed
to bomb the Yalu River bridges but was overruled by Washington. Later,
he was sacked. Big mistake.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

Remember the failed "Bay of Pigs" and Washington's agreement with
Moscow to remove US missiles out of Turkey months later?

Bay of Pigs failed because there was no air support by the US. The deal with
the Soviets was moot-ified by the US drawdown of the entire missile class
later, replacing them with weapons like advanced ICBMs ans later Polaris.

Vietnam: LOST
Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure
Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure

True enough

Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs
and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory?

Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR

Which is more due to Soviet citizens standing in line for bread 8 hrs
a day and the forever unattainable 5 year plans they made... not to
mention devoting almost all their resources to defense and the
corruption of the Communist Party elite. Then there was also the KGB
terror and its informer network. The fall was inevitable and without
the USSR the Warsaw Pact was nothing.

Without the West forcing the USSR to spend itself into oblivion, and
supporting people like the rebels in Afghanistan, this would have gone
longer - and that loss of financial and political will on the USSR's point
also saved East Germany, and allowed the reunification. Standing up to
Communism in the Western Hemisphere/Central American helped as well.

Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World
nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and
population suffer as a result.

The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved

After the nation was brutally raped, robbed, murdered, and
ecologically polluted. Saddam, meanwhile, was untouched and building
more palaces...

Blame the UN, not the US. The UN resolution was only to free Kuwait. If
Saddam had pulled out when asked, the Coalition would not have had reason to
bomb him either. Heck, Saddam killed a lot of Kurds, a lot of Kuwaitis, a
lot of other Iraqis and a lot of Iranians. Eventually the US took your
advice and went all the way to Baghdad, and it was Continental Europe what
gave them hell for it.

The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with
their armor and military/police units intact. International force
needed.

The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Oh please, too little too late. Serb soldiers insulted International
forces as they left Kosovo and threatened ethnic minorities right in
front the peacekeepers.

And now the Albanians kill Serbs and other minorities in front of them. And
the province has become a smuggling center where the vilest crimes go on
under UN supervision, and I suspect a little bit of sanction as well.

Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed

Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service

A US Naval warship which should have been adequately protected. Taken
out by a raft of explosives.

Making the mistake of assuming they were making a port visit to a friendly
place. Terrorists often seek such weaknesses instead of fighting "fair." The
US is now camping out and rebuilding in the nation the Al Quaeda and their
buddies used to run.

9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities

Biggest disaster of them off and no comment? US the invincible brought
to agony by a few jet liners of terrorists?

Excuse me? Could have prevented? By how? Psychic hotline? Come on, this is
less believable than UFOs at Antartica or whatever.

And yes, killing thousands of people was a horrible thing. Yes a lot of men,
women, and children on planes and in buildings died. It is nothing to be
funny about. But it didn't paralyse the US, it had a different effect.
Personally the day after I wanted to get on an airliner to show we weren't
going to be pushed around, like the Israelis returning to bus stops after
bombings. Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack as well, and this had a similar
effect. People died and were injured horribly, and a nation grieved her
losses. Then went after those who did it. Were it your nation you would do
the same.

Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Are you insane? Try going there and leaving Kabul. The rest of the
nation is in the hands of warlords who shelter terrorists and hate the
US. My buddy is over there right now. He says its the same dirt
******** as ever.

I have a friend over there now as well, sir. He is proud of what they are
doing. They are clearing mines where he is at planted over 10 or so years of
war. Less kids will get blown up because of that. Do you think a nation
blown and beaten apart over 20 plus years will be rebuilt in a day? No. But
there is a beginning of a process there. And that counts for more than any
amount of griping.

Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998,
Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years
Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real
reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to
isolating UN and certain European nations- failure


The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Oh thank God for British token forces whose own weapons and gear are
****. I assume you're British, so don't you read your own papers for
God-save-the-Queen sakes!!! All you guys did was sit in the rear and
deliver humanitarian aid while the US drove downtown to Baghdad.

The battle for Basra was quite bloody. And the UK gets eternal credit from
the US for having our backs.

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into
submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....

4th largest army stat doesn't mean ****. They were pathetic fighting
soldiers. The Hitler Youth could have taken them out!!!

Actually, they had fought a ten year war with Iran and wrecked Kuwait
handily. Saudi Arabia was also worried about them enough to call in half the
world to help them stand off against Iraq. They had one of the most advanced
air defense networks in the world, chemical weapons (Proof was in the ones
they blew up after 1991) and a heck of a lot of tanks. Their soldiers had
been in battles and were willing to fight. They had missiled a US ship
previously in a sneak attack with an Exocet. They were quite deadly to be
sure. The Hitler Youth comment is sad.

But
we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly
threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to
defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in
the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N
Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to
stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have
twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that
invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China.

The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt.

On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable.

Not really. People used to say that about the USSR. And if China sees more
to gain in peace than war, plus the risks of war, peace is promising.

So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the
size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with
everything to beat them.

Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined
and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

I could only wish that the political decision to change direction
eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What
would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with
pitch forks and shotguns?

Against what? Germany had virtually no landing craft. Their doctrine was not
intact and the UK had sea superiority with the Royal Navy. The smarter play
for Germany would have been to have a larger U-Boat force, but they were
behind the building curve on that at the war's start. Hitler had not planned
for a war with Britian and France in 1940.

You should thank God a lone German bomber
ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have
kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of
pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets
like London.

The Germans were against the first successful radar-equipped defense system,
and pilots from many nations were flocking to Britain. The German fighters
had very little time over Britain to protect the bombers due to fuel
constraints. Even had the Germans been able to secure some airspace over
southern England, the ability to land troops was not theirs.

Troops they tried to land would have faced stiff defenses, as well. The
Germans, to my knowledge, had no equivalent of the Allied UDTs that cleared
beach obstacles at Normandy. Things like flaming oil slicks, mines, and
obstacles would have been in their way. Plus the aforementioned Royal Navy.
And whatever the RAF had to throw at them.

Keith

Keep dreaming on,
Rob