On 9/15/11 6:53 PM, Ryszard Krolikowski wrote:
On Sep 12, 1:02 pm, Chris wrote:
I don’t know the data on locations of glider/glider collisions for
USA, but in the UK most are near the home base gliding site of the two
gliders. A few are on cross countries, and even then some are with
another pilot from the same club on the same task.
For which reason, I have been advocating that anybody obtaining Flarm
should do their best to persuade other glider owners at the same site
– club or private- to fit it too, for the most effective improvement
in alerting.
And, by the way, here in Euroland, where the simple Swiss Flarm is now
OK to fit, many of us do it as a piece of personal carry-on equipment,
with its own battery if there is not an easy way to plug into the main
glider electrics, to overcome officialdom’s need for approved
modifications. I do that on my glider.
Chris N.
Chris,
American reality is little different.
Majority of the club and commercial operation gliders don't have a
parachute, or radio or audio vario.
Do you think, you can convince someone to buy $2000 PowerFlarm?
No one is offering here inexpensive low key European style Flarm.
For some reason we need to know to the last second of our life, we are
going to get killed by the transponder equipped plane, with no info
from what direction it is coming.
And the range of our PowerFlarm has to be 10 times larger so we use
our batteries 10 times faster. Also our version of Flarm is so big ,
that you might have problem seeing the towplane.
Ryszard Krolikowski
I am not sure this deserves a detailed reply, since much of this is just
inaccurate or hyperbole or has been address here before, but here goes
anyhow...
The PowerFLARM platform is here in the USA as its the first and only
FLARM technology to be FCC approved. That is why there are no other
products else being offered here.
Current PowerFLARM pricing is $1,695 for the portable or brick with
separate rectangular display. Not $2,000. Many of the hundreds of glider
pilots who have a PowerFLARM units on order in the USA will pay less
than this price due to the early order/bulk order promotion offered.
The upcoming "brick" unit was developed to provide a system that is more
compact to unobtrusively mount in gliders.
I don't know what counts as "inexpensive European style Flarm units" but
there there seems to often be confusion about what overseas pricing is
for FLARM. Especially with some perception that FLARM units cost
something like $500 or so. Here are some current prices pulled off the
web...
Flarm Classic (LED display, no IGC logger) EU 738 = USD 1,021
Flarm Classic (LED display, IGC logger) EU 818 = USD 1,132
(e.g. see
http://www.butterfly-store.de/FLARM/Geraete/)
Flarm MiniBox (no IGC logger, LED display) EU 655 = USD 908
Flarm LX MiniBox (IGC logger, SD reader LCD display) EU 920 = USD 1,391
(e.g. see
http://www.gliderpilotshop.nl/winkel...products_id=56)
Mini OzFLARM Combo (display + mini OzFLarm) AUD 1,049 = USD 1,116
(
http://swiftavionics.com.au/shop/minioz-combo/)
There may be discount purchases and promotions overseas that lower these
prices. If you have better prices to compare to PowerFLARM please
provide them. And also remember that this is purely academic since none
of these existing systems are FCC approved, and neither do I ever expect
them to be.
Considering the integrated PCAS and ADS-B receiver capability being
offered in PowerFLARM we are getting a very attractive package at a
reasonable price. The large number of people willing to order PowerFLARM
seems to support that.
There is no claim I aware of with PowerFLARM of range being "ten times
larger" and no proof of battery consumption being "ten times higher". It
has been mentioned that PowerFLARM is intended to have improved range
over traditional systems (and some of that improvement will come from
use of the second receiver antenna as well). FLARM have also stated that
they are operating the FLARM transmitter at higher power in the USA to
provide a margin over interference in the USA 915MHz ISM band and no
doubt the more capable LCD display and 1090MHz/ADS-B receiver will
unavoidably increase power consumption compared to existing FLARM
systems. But that is a tradeoff I expect many pilots will happily accept
(to get FLARM + PCAS).
Existing Flarm units operate roughly around 50mA @ 12VDC (this varies a
lot with display type and options). The PowerFLARM definitely does not
draw ten times this amount (i.e. 0.5 amp). I won't publish my own
PowerFLARM portable measurements here as they are not done in active
FLARM threat environments. I hope FLARM will provide updates on power
consumption specs in future.
I've also seen confusion as well that all the old style FLARM units are
operating on two or so AA batteries with apparently very long run times.
Most FLARM units do not have internal batteries. I think some of that
confusion comes from confusion with the Zaon MRX PCAS unit.
Remember the reports of the worst problems with PowerFLARM internal
battery from Uvalde were with rechargeable batteries operated at very
high temperatures where the battery performance basically collapses. Urs
from FLARM has addressed this here recently. And the overall best option
for most gliders, instead of juggling internal batteries will be to
connect the PowerFLARM to the ships main batteries.
I don't know if you have much practical experience flying with PCAS
systems but many glider pilots who have flow with them find them very
useful devices for warning of other transponder equipped gliders or GA
traffic. And in the USA we have ADS-B coming, with its warts and all,
but ADS-B is going to be widely used in GA and commercial aircraft (by
2020 deployed roughly somewhat as widely as transponders are now). Its a
more complex story but PowerFLARM ability to see ADS-B traffic
(including direction data) will be useful especially in mixed traffic
situations over the coming years. Its pretty nice that we are getting
PCAS and ADS-B capability built into all these systems for what seems to
be not much apparent increase in price over more basic FLARM unit (and
you need to factor in a better display, and FCC certification,
engineering mods etc. to any of those overseas basic FLARM units that
would increase their cost here).
---
I am not aware of any club or FBO in Northern California for example
that do not have parachutes, but I'm happy to be corrected if that's the
case, and most club/FBO gliders in this area have VHF radios or a very
few gliders use handhelds. And at least most gliders intended for XC/XC
training have electric varios. Quite a few have IGC loggers and flight
computers etc. or PDAs or facilities for mounting members PDAs. The
clubs/FBOs I've visited in other USA locations don't seem very far from
this. But then maybe that is just the kind of club/FBO I want to go visit.
Everybody clearly has to manage costs responsibly but clubs flying
poorly equipped clunkers, and no willingness to buy any safety equipment
(which seemed to be the claim here) and/or who don't focus on equipping
gliders well for XC and training new pilots for XC are unlikely to grow
or survive long term. That's not to say a club should necessarily buy
PowerFLARM, especially over other safety related expenditure--that is
something pilots and club needs to evaluate for their particular
situation. But I certainly have been encouraging clubs, FBOs and private
owners to consider PowerFLARM and most of the people I talk to are
planning to adopt this. The momentum behind PowerFLARM adoption in the
USA is already very clear.
Darryl