"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Kevin Brooks wrote:

snip

I think we'll see an off-the-shelf purchase of a
new LUH; the possibility of a Bell 412 in military colors is not
unrealistic
(and probably more likely than the Huey II refurbishment program),
destined
for primarily ARNG service. The OH-58C's currently in use by ARNG
outfits
that have lost their Cobras and/or Hueys can't last long.

BTW, here's the actual DoD transcript with the announcement and the
details of
where the money's going.:

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcrip...0223-0484.html

Doesn't a Huey, especially a 412, seem rather much for replacing
OH-58Cs?

But if you reread the article you provided, you'll note the requirement
is
to replace the 58's *and* the Hueys. The 58C's are currently serving in
three major roles in the ARNG--as cav scouts in the divisional cav
squadrons, as observation aircraft (equipped with FLIR) in the RAID
detachments (drug interdiction and homeland security), and as
"caretaker"
airframes for the AH-1 inits and Huey units that have already lost their
aircraft. The 412 would not be ideal in the cav scout role, but that is
only
16 aircraft per ARNG division (figuring an eventual force of no more
than
six ARNG divisions, you are talking about less than 100 aircraft, and
likely
less if the Guard drops down to the four division level). It would be an
excellent replacement for the Huey, especially in regards to the
homeland
defense mission. The article noted a total requirement of some 300
airframes
to replace the older Kiowas and the remaining Hueys in the ARNG, and I
would
not rule the 412 out as a competitor.

From my reading of the transcript, it seems pretty clear that they're
getting
rid of the Hueys entirely (did you see the slides?), replacing them with
UH-60s,
and putting a new OH out for bid.

I did not come away with the same interpretation, and neither did the
following media source:

"Among the new buys will be 368 new reconnaissance helicopters to replace
the OH-58 Kiowa Warrior, 303 new light utility helicopters to replace aging
Hueys, and roughly 25 new fixed-wing cargo aircraft that would replace the
C-23 for intra-theater transport. The cancellation of Comanche **also**
[emphasis added] will allow for the purchase of an additional 80 UH-60 Black
Hawk helicopters and another 50 CH-47 Chinooks, according to Cody."
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new...s/inc02254.xml

The plan appears to be to purchase new aircraft to replace both the OH's
*and* the Hueys (may not be the same aircraft, obviously), and the
additional Blackhawk order is not going to impinge upon those plans (note
the use of "also", as in "in addition to").


Militarized Bell 407s or 430s ("Son of AirHawk!") I could see, or
something
similar (hey, Howard Hughes is still dead, so maybe we could buy more
OH/AH-6s
at a reasonable price). Or at a step up in size, AB-139s. Smaller
than a
Huey,
but larger than a Loach, and should be a lot less
maintenance-intensive.
If
you're going to buy new 4 blade Hueys you might as well just buy more
UH-60s and
have done with it (which is apparently what is being done, along with
CH-47Fs,
UAVs etc.)

As you note, they are indeed buying more Blackhawks. But Blackhawks are
pretty pricey compared to the 412. With the increased emphasis on
homeland
defense and the Guard's role in that respect, taking X amount of money
and
buying more 412's than you could buy UH-60's with the same money would
appear to be a doable solution to me. I doubt the Army wants to blow any
more money than it has to on aircraft that it can't, or would prefer not
to,
integrate into its warfighting plans across the board; if you bought
only
UH-60's, then the tendancy would be to identify them with contingency
plan
force development requirements. They'd be a bit less likely to want to
integrate a low density platform like the 412 would be. But hey, its
early--who knows?

At least how I understand it, they're not willing to do that,

That is not what AvLeak is saying.

and want the Guard
to be seamlessly able to integrate with the active component, which means
they've pretty much got to have the same equipment.

Not necessarily. That has BEEN the way they have thought for decades, but
9-11, and the resultant load upon the Guard in terms of mobilizations for
overseas deployment, coupled with the less-than-timely drawdown on the Huey
and Cobra fleets, got some folks (including Governors and likely now the
DHS) to talking about the desirability of having some aircraft primarily
oriented towards the domestic requirement. NGB has even begun talking about
the MV-22 as being a good match for some domestic requirements, especially
for such roles as transporting the NG's NBC response teams. The desire to
get an off-the-shelf utility bird specifically for the ARNG has also been
discussed previously, which is why the plan to actually do that is not that
surprising to me. And as the interest is towards a dedicated (or close to
that term) domestic support aircraft, the need for interoperability with
active component systems is not as important. If such interoperability was
such a key concern, why does the ARNG often find itself operating equipment
(from trucks to helicopters) that the active component no longer operates,
and sometimes won't even support?

While a 412 probably costs
less per hour to operate than a -60, when you add in the costs of the
separate
training, maintenance and spares support I suspect it just doesn't make
sense
economically. Otherwise the USMC could have just bought UH-60s and
modified
AH-64s instead of staying all common with the UH-1Y/AH-1Z.

Well Guy, in this case it appears the Army disagrees with you. Eighty
UH-60's are a drop in the bucket compared to the needs in terms of replacing
the UH-1's that have been lost, and I have to tell you that I think AvLeak
is generally a rather reliable source, and they do indeed indicate that a
*new* light utility airframe is in the works (and the UH-60 is a bit on the
chunky side (both in terms of size and payload) to be called "light"). I
doubt the amount of training required to prepare those Huey wrench turners
for a platform like the 412 is any different from what is required to
prepare them for the UH-60, and unlike the AC side, those wrench turners
often spend their entire career in the same unit, so turnover won't be as
big an issue. Crew training is not likely to be a major issue, either--the
ARNG already manages C-23 training, just as the ANG is heavily involved in
pilot training for the F-16 and F-15. Doing an in-house qualification course
at either or both the eastern or western ARNG aviation training sites (AZ
and PA, IIRC) would be no biggie as they have run crew training programs for
years now on Cobras, Chinooks, and even Blackhawks and Apaches. The USMC
stayed with the Huey for a number of reasons, cost being among them (and
size likely being another); likewise, the ARNG lobbied a few years back to
go with the "Huey II" or similar modifications, but was unsuccessful.


I did find the bit about replacing the C-23's of interest. The way they
phrased that (wanting a more capable aircraft), I'd bet that the folks
at
LMCO and Alenia (IIRC that is the right firm) can expect a likely C-27J
order in the not-too-distant future. The Guard folks have been squeaking
about just that possibility for a year or two now already.

Yeah, that was my reading too. They may compete it with the CN-295, but I
figure the odds of that winning are right up there with Congress agreeing
to buy
Airbus tankers. Of course, if the CN-295 were to have American engines
and
avionics and be assembled here, it would be pretty similar to the C-27J as
far
as American content goes. But it's nice to see the Army get back the
intra-theater tactical lift they lost when the AF took the Caribous. It
certainly makes far more sense that the Army operate these than the USAF.
Of
course, with the exception of supporting A-10 (and potentially F-35B)
operations
from FOB, the USAF has little or no need of the rough-field STOL
capability of
the C-130 to support their own intra-theater missions --they're all
support for
Army (or occasionally Marine) ops.

Yep. It looks like the initial number to be bought will be around 25--that
would be a heck of a shot in the arm for the Alenia side in particular and
the C-27 in general. The commonality it shares engine wise with the C-130J
won't hurt its chances, either.

Brooks


Guy