Subject: Mr. Gustin, Mr Caidin, and B-17's
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 4/16/04 4:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
thlink.net...

What's Caidin's track record?

Mr. Gustin:

His writing "never let the facts get in the way of a good story."
He wrote a lot of books, always giving far more attention to being
entertaining than to accuracy. That, of course, is not so harmful
where his numerous works of fiction are concerned; his works
of history however...

Caidin's works are spreading and
perpetuating more aviation history myths and errors than those
of any other author, of course also because they were so widely
sold.

You can expound on the above as you see fit. So far, you've provided no
facts,
just gossip.

Let's deal with this B-17/FW-190 collision story that you found so hard to
swallow.

This B-17 was named "TS".

Caidin wrote:

"Coming back from bombing an airdrome on July 14th, a Fortress met a nose
attack by three FW-190's with a blast of fire that destroyed two of the
fighters and evidently killed the pilot of the third. It crashed head on
into
the number three engine of the Fortress with an impact that that tore off the
propeller and knocked the bomber completely out of formation. The German
fighter did a cartwheel over the Fortress, cutting halfway through the wing
and
a third of the way through the horizontal stabliizer. Top and ball turrets on
the bomber jammed, radio equipment was smashed; all the instruments,
according
to the co-pilot, 'went crazy'. Pieces of the metal from the disintegrating
Focke-Wulf hurtled through the fuselage. A gun barrel burried itself in the
wall between the radio room and the bomb bay. Other crews in the formation
later reported that the Fortress had blown up as a result of the collision.
It
had not. On the contrary, it pulled itself together, shot down one more
fighter, limped back under a canopy of sympathetic P-47's, and made a belly
landing at an English base. None of the crew was scratched."

-- "Flying Forts" pp 393-94, by Martin Caidin

Now let's compare that to another source:

"As "TS" was making her turn off the target, Lt. Weniger called in a pair of
FW-190's who were climbing at full rate on a parallel course, and when far
enough ahead reversing their course to make what he later described as a
"balls
to the wall" forward pass. The ensuing events are best related in his own
words:

"Prior to coming into range you could see their wings belching fire. All our
gunner were firing at max rate, but they kept on coming. At this point I
knew
we were in for a real problem. The lead fighter rolled to the left and Split
S
down some four or five lengths ahead of us. Sgt. Tucker (BT) shouted out '
He
almost took my guns with him!' The wingman to the right was either dead or
damned mad at us for bombing his airfield when he also rolled left for a
split
S. His aircraft was perpendicular when he crashed into us between the number
3
engine and the fuselage. His nose section and propeller became unglued and
departed over the top of number 4, cutting a deep gash in the nacelle top
whch
immediately poured forth a a big black stream of oil resembling a Texas oil
gusher into the air.

The crashing Fw. continued on down the fuselage, embedding one of his 20MM
guns
in our bomb bay and part of his fuselage lodged in our aircraft...Sgt. Budzik
(RWG) was holding his gun when the Fw hit the barrel. He repoted the shock
was
so great that it threw him to the floor. The Fw's progress knocked the
dorsal
fin out of alignment and heavily damaged the right horizontal
stabilizer....the
FW left the scene in an un-controlled cartwheel -- that's the hard way to
knock down one of Jerry's fighters, and is not recommended for longevity for
bomber crews!

Due to the impact "TS" was in a dead stall. Acting on reflex, Eddie and I
rammed the yokes forward to their full extent and pushed the throttles
forward
for maximum power. Then it was time for a little prayer to see if TS would
would either fly or fall off on one wing into an irretrieveable stall or
spin...As the group began to fade into the distance and we were letting down
at
500 ft a minute to maintain flying speed, 'Smitty' (Lt. Marvin Smith,
naviagtor) came up from below to report that all was okay and that the
nearest
base was Manston. We could see the Channel when to our surprise and bad luck
we
flew over a flak battery, and big black smoke-puffs appeared all 'round. We
received a number of hits, happily none direct; evasive action was very
limited
due to TS' condition. After running out of range (we later counted over 1000
holes in TS) we were sure nothing else could happen, although we were flying
on
a wing and a prayer.. In this we were soon proved wrong!

O'Donnell, on hs second return from the rear, called in German fighters. When
asked if he thought they would attack the question was answered a moment
later
when a 20MM exploded under Eddie's seat."

-- "Ridgewell's Flying Fortresses" pp. 29-30 by Ron Mackay

I don't see anything that contradicts what Caidin wrote, although there is no
mention of kills by the pilot. In fact, the story is even more amazing that
Caidin let on.

But I think the onus in on Mr. Gustin to substantiate his claims or apolgize.

And the serial. number on "TS" was 23211

I do have a picture of TS and I'll post the URL later.

Walt


Now that's what I call a fun mission. (sheesh)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer