Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach.

Denyav wrote in message ...
To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.

Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine.

Yes folks, the fictional movie is to be supplemented with more fiction.

Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and
replaced by Kimmel?

Disagreement with the boss.

The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum
and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN dispatches.
Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches.

I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
his use of the famed McCollum Memo.

By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
his opinion.

The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.

However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.

Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
near FDR.

By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
cryptographers and security cleared language experts.

Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
radio is a joke.

The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.

Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
at Hitokappu Bay. Source. “History on Communications” by
Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).

You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy
and started to act like an imperial navy.

By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we
have something totally different dropped in.

Deleted text,

"You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. "

ope with reality. Go on, fight
the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
real event, since no one else is competing.

Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to
catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the
laws written in books.
In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will
not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go
free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen.

Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes
from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to
do, above all do not think.

I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript
makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack
being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse
Washington of short changing the field commanders.

If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say
of two things,

1) the size of the defences
2) the alertness of the defences.

1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do
not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did
nothing wrong line.

The rest is simply text that could not be replied to,

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.