On 2007-10-18 16:50:42 -0700, Larry Dighera said:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:15:12 -0700, C J Campbell
wrote in
2007101814151250073-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

On 2007-10-18 03:59:07 -0700, Larry Dighera said:


It seems many of us have forgotten that we Americans are not like much
of the world; our determination to uphold justice and freedom used to
set us apart, until the current regime in power in this country
started approving of torturing prisoners, warrantless invasion of
privacy, and trampling on our Constitution.

The leader of our country, while he was governor of Texas, put more
"criminals" to death than all the rest of the states combined, IIRC.
Perhaps such disrespect for human life and moral justice is unique to
Texas or a result of shallow insight, but it is reprehensible none the
less. It saddens me to see America losing its way through the
darkness of tyranny and injustice, and joining the unenlightened in
trampling human dignity. It always starts at the top.

Which President did NOT order people tortured, detained without trial,
or snooped upon?

Wiretaps for a long time required no court order at all; they were
regularly used by the likes of Eliot Ness.

The problems with warrantless acquisition of private information, the
way I see it, are several. Consider the length of time the data are
archived, the potential for inappropriate use of private information
to influence a jury member, or profit in the stock market, or worse,
the violation of the fourth Constitutional amendment, the lack of due
process, the lack of security of government databases that seem to be
routinely misplaced in notebook computers, ... What steps has the
government implemented to address those issues?

Thinking people comprehend the inappropriateness of this invasion of
privacy in a twinkling. I haven't heard any convincing argument to
justify not obtaining a warrant; surely provisions could be made for
warrants to be easily accomplished. But then there would be records
and the attendant accountability and oversight...

You realize that *all* the NSA wiretaps are approved by a judge? People
are not going around listening in on Democratic Party headquarters, you
know. I find that the paranoia of the left wing Bush haters is every
bit as disturbing as the paranoia of the right wing Clinton haters. It
is paranoia. It is not an expression of patriotism or a desire for
civil liberties.

Perhaps you would like to explain how Clinton's or Roosevelt's or
Kennedy's or Truman's trampling on civil rights but that Bush or Nixon
or McCarthy or Eisenhower are somehow different? Frankly, if someone
like Roosevelt was in office, you would have been arrested for treason
long ago.



Now, perhaps you can give an example of a prisoner that was tortured
and the current administration actually approved of it?

From what I believe to be reasonably accurate news reports from major
networks, I have heard that water-boarding (partial drowning) was used
and authorized by the current chief Executive office holder in a
letter. In an interview I saw last night, the new Attorney General
indicated that he considers warrantless wiretaps unconstitutional,
illegal, and a mistake that needs to be remedied pronto. That's good
enough for me.

The only people who have held that water-boarding is torture is
anti-war extremists. In fact, all military personnel are subjected to
water-boarding as part of their resistance training nowadays.

Wiretapping, IIRC, is not torture. There never were any warrantless
wiretaps. That was one of the criticisms of Gonzales from the left --
that the warrants he was getting were made under duress. You can't say
that and then say there are no warrants.
--
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World Famous Flight Instructor