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Old October 12th 18, 09:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Alastair Lyas[_2_]
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Posts: 5
Default ADSB panel display


If you fly anywhere near other gliders then a simple proximity alarm
is going to get pretty annoying and be pretty useless. If you fly near
GA then ADSB is going to become essential. This is true of the US,
the UK, and probably EU. If you fly in a glider with finite battery
then an ADSB transceiver makes a whole lot more sense than a
transponder.

Regulation will need to catch-up, and the product set needs to
evolve. Flarm and UAVionix are working together. What they need is
to hear from gliderpilots about what solutions will work for us.
Otherwise all they will design for is GA.

My view is we want a combined Powerflarm / ADSB OEM module
that can slot into the native gliding navigation systems. With
software configurability to deal with the regional legalities of doing
this in the short term.


At 23:52 11 October 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:47:12 PM UTC-7, Darryl

Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair

Lyas wrote:
Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB

and=20
Flarm?

=20
The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has

lots of
li=
mitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market

at
lea=
st, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here

goes...
=20
I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do

need to
=
be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a

decade
=
ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT

devices
tha=
t never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and

in some
c=
ases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption

because of
=
that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho

2 we
d=
on't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does

not do
=
since documentation has been available for a while. And much of

my
comments=
below come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with

a pretty
g=
ood understanding of the underlying technology.
=20
The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the

USA today
y=
ou would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge

option to get
FLA=
RM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of

glider
ow=
ners. According to the documentation the combined devices do

*not* take
ADS=
-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the

usual
tra=
ffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works

the
o=
ther way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent

over
GLD=
-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots

want
in=
a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct

traffic). And
=
I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say

when
ther=
malling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the

time
nons=
ense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90

works I
doub=
t there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it

is,
a=
nd very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
=20
I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that

device
yet.=
I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't

even be
=
advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing

mentioned
o=
n their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by

even
talk=
ing about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was

going to
cal=
l it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very

well
what=
they are doing with FCC approval.
=20
Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was

pretty
intere=
sting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs.

the
USA,=
they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest

in TABS
an=
d FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a

intersting
k=
itchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that

uAvionix
=
are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that

market.
=20
So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM

device to
conne=
ct to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho

2
provide,=
and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
=20
Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does

implement
TAB=
S/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is

obviously
imp=
ortant. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that

device
ho=
wever and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy

ATC areas.
=
ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as

they are
full=
transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC

visibility part
=
is a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden

area
wh=
ich this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not

recommend
=
that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my

hands on
on=
e to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON

tech
folks=
who cover the Reno area.
=20
You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an

aircraft
wit=
h an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get

visibility to
A=
TC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder

in their
g=
lider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2

if
tha=
t meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed

the
=
transponder to start with.
=20
The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out

requirements, and
althou=
gh gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say
overfl=
y Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
=20
It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems

more
targeted=
at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is

more a GA
f=
eature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like

me,
b=
ut kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially

with
ful=
l Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
=20
Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...
=20
PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and

TIS-B) and
FLA=
RM. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES

In
option).=
=20
=20
LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC

approval, with
its=
ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it

*does* ADS-R
=
and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart

here and
the=
PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
=20
Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with

1090ES In
capa=
bilities coming, I wish they would start describing those product

specs
and=
capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the

USA
m=
arket. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants

a
dedic=
ated FLARM display).
=20
---
=20
Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm

you not
=
sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070,

but if you
re=
ally want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard

PowerFLARM
ex=
ternal box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.

You are a stud!

J